Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand.

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Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand.

Post by Aszev » Fri 04 May 2012, 14:07

Den här tråden är för frågor om skandinaviska (svenska, norska, danska, m.fl.). Till skillnad från forumet i övrigt är den här tråden öppen för frågor och diskussioner på engelska såväl som skandinaviska.

Denne tråd er for spørgsmål om skandinavisk (svensk, norsk, dansk, m.fl.). Til forskel fra forumet i øvrigt er denne tråd åben for spørgsmål og diskussioner på engelsk såvel som skandinavisk.

This thread is for questions about Scandinavian (Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, et al.). In contrast to the rest of the forum, this thread is open for questions and discussions in English as well as Scandinavian.
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Re: Spørsmålstråd/Frågetråd - Skandinaviska

Post by Prinsessa » Fri 04 May 2012, 19:58

Skriv bara spørsmålstråd så fattar alla tre parter. [:P]
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Re: Spørsmålstråd/Frågetråd - Skandinaviska

Post by Thaeri » Fri 04 May 2012, 22:03

Ngä'nte allehóp.

Å ja engkłuderar di sôm uttałar "nej inte" på dä sättet. Di ä för skadate utå ŕekssvänska.
Mórsmåł :vgtl:, dess standardvariant :swe:, fluent :eng:, snakker :nor:, læser :dan:, dugi eitt sindur :fao:
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by Allekanger » Thu 05 Jul 2012, 22:08

Ngä'nte med [ŋ]?

Någon som vet IPA för de(n) vokal(er) folk skriver som <ô>? Jag har sett både [ɶ] och [ʚ] som förslag. Jag antar att uttalet kanske varierar, men tänkte om det fanns någon generell lösning som folk kör med.. [:)] Tack för hand!
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by Ceresz » Thu 05 Jul 2012, 22:17

[ʚ] är den bästa utgångspunkten enligt mig. Ljudet beskrivs ju som nånting mellan å och ö och då känns ju [ʚ] ganska självklart enligt mig iaf.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by DrGeoffStandish » Fri 06 Jul 2012, 01:21

Allekanger wrote:Någon som vet IPA för de(n) vokal(er) folk skriver som <ô>? Jag har sett både [ɶ] och [ʚ] som förslag. Jag antar att uttalet kanske varierar, men tänkte om det fanns någon generell lösning som folk kör med.. [:)] Tack för hand!
Jag håller med föregående talare, d.v.s. ô är närmast [ʚ] i (standard-)IPA. Ljudet [ɶ] känns alldeles för öppet för syftet.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Tue 30 Jul 2013, 17:30

Hej!

Kan nogen revidere de danske eksempler, som jeg har komponeret?

Specifikt:

(1) I går slog drengen ikke manden.

'Yesterday the boy didn't beat the man.'

(2) Drengen gav ikke manden et æble.

'The boy didn't give an apple to the man.'

(3) I går gav drengen ikke manden et æble.

'Yesterday the boy didn't give an apple to the man.'

Eksemplerne skal illustrere en påstand om de danske (og generelt kontinentalskandinaviske, forstår jeg) ordstillingsregler...

Undskyld mig, og tak :)
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by Prinsessa » Wed 31 Jul 2013, 08:49

Vil du vita, om de stemmer, eller hvad menar du? Er du engen dane sjelver, eller vil du bara vita, om andre danar sku' segja detta upp å sama måta?
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Wed 31 Jul 2013, 14:20

Jeg er ikke dansker, og dansk taler jeg ikke :)

Oh, and I notice English is welcomed in this thread...

I composed the examples myself, and I wanted to know if they were in correct Danish.

I need them to illustrate my point in another thread.

In fact, analogous Swedish examples would work as well (I think). I'm less sure about Norwegian. The examples are about the ordering of postverbal dependents (if that wasn't clear).
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Wed 31 Jul 2013, 19:28

Spoiler:
basilius wrote:In fact, analogous Swedish examples would work as well (I think).
...And the Swedish examples would look like this:

(1) Igår slog pojken inte mannen.

'Yesterday the boy didn't beat the man.'

(2) Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple.

'The boy didn't give an apple to the man.'

(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.

'Yesterday the boy didn't give an apple to the man.'
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by DrGeoffStandish » Wed 31 Jul 2013, 23:09

Pretty good work for a non-native speaker of Swedish but I reckon that (1) and (3) need to be corrected. (The simpler example (2) looks fine, though.)
basilius wrote:(1) Igår slog pojken inte mannen.
Either "Igår slog inte pojken mannen." or - even better - "Pojken slog inte mannen igår." works.
basilius wrote:(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.
Either "Igår gav inte pojken mannen ett äpple." or - even better - "Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple igår." works.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Thu 01 Aug 2013, 00:50

Spoiler:
Thanks!

Perhaps, it's worth discussing how I did it, for some of my premises could be wrong.

It was an extrapolation from a couple examples I've seen cited in linguistic papers; the examples were in Danish, but were meant to illustrate some features of Continental Scandinavian syntax in general. I'll replace them with their Swedish equivalents, and I am curious if it's the examples that are wrong, or only my extrapolation.

(A)

Pojken slog inte mannen.
Mannen slog pojken inte.

- These are supposed to describe the same situation, 'The boy didn't beat/hit the man' (with different intonation and placement of phrasal stress in English), neither of the two allowing for the alternative reading, 'The man didn't beat/hit the boy'. Is this correct?

(B) Igår gav pojken mannen ett äpple.

- This one is supposed to be a grammatical (even if not the least marked) way to express the idea in 'Yesterday the boy gave an apple to the man'. Does this make sense?

The extrapolation I applied was about there being a unified template for ordering the dependents when all of them are put after the verb: (1) subject (pojken), (2) then "sentential adverb" (the negation inte working as one), (3) then indirect object if construed without a preposition (mannen), (4) then direct object (ett äpple); this template is what one gets combining the ordering rules seen in (A) {(1)-(2)-(4)} and (B) {(1)-(3)-(4)}.

Now, either my original examples are incorrect, and ordering rules in the simpler examples don't work like I thought they did (in Swedish only? in either Swedish or Danish?), or else (more interestingly) the ordering rules don't merge straightforwardly when combined in one template...
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Thu 01 Aug 2013, 20:19

Spoiler:
It appears that I said something particularly stupid in my last message...

People must be pondering over various ways to hint to that without hurting me too much =)
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by Prinsessa » Fri 02 Aug 2013, 18:29

DrGeoffStandish wrote:
basilius wrote:(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.
Either "Igår gav inte pojken mannen ett äpple." or - even better - "Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple igår." works.
I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Fri 02 Aug 2013, 18:47

Spoiler:
Skógvur wrote:
DrGeoffStandish wrote:
basilius wrote:(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.
Either "Igår gav inte pojken mannen ett äpple." or - even better - "Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple igår." works.
I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
Thanks!

Do you mean, also in this example:
(1) Igår slog pojken inte mannen.
-?

Also, could you please comment on this:
(A)

Pojken slog inte mannen.
Mannen slog pojken inte.

- These are supposed to describe the same situation, 'The boy didn't beat/hit the man' (with different intonation and placement of phrasal stress in English), neither of the two allowing for the alternative reading, 'The man didn't beat/hit the boy'. Is this correct?
- ?
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by DrGeoffStandish » Fri 02 Aug 2013, 21:07

Skógvur wrote:I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
Well, the negation can be place pretty much anywhere though not always grammatically correct.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Mon 05 Aug 2013, 14:09

Spoiler:
DrGeoffStandish wrote:
Skógvur wrote:I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
Well, the negation can be place pretty much anywhere though not always grammatically correct.
DrGeoffStandish: It seems that your lect differs from Skógvur's.

Besides, there are more than one ways in which your statement can be understood (at any rate, by a non-native who hasn't dealt much with subtleties of Swedish syntax). For example:

(1) Your lect uses only one placement for the negation, but you've had enough exposure to other people's lects which permit a different ordering, and this doesn't make understanding them more difficult.

(2) You were speaking of some sort of Standard Swedish, and perhaps a somewhat idealized version thereof, while being fully aware of the variation across lects in less formal registers.

(3) You were speaking of the least marked ordering, with other placements of negation implying a special emphasis on some components of the utterance, or perhaps a shift of the scope of negation (e. g. asking for a continuation like <... inte ett äpple> men en banan). With no context justifying such special emphasis or altered scope of negation, the alternative orderings sound forced to you.

(Actually, I suspect (3) is closest to what you meant.)

I am indeed interested in understanding what's going on here; this bit of Swedish/Scandinavian syntax is curious by itself, and typologically important.
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by Aszev » Mon 05 Aug 2013, 14:54

Skógvur wrote:
DrGeoffStandish wrote:
basilius wrote:(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.
Either "Igår gav inte pojken mannen ett äpple." or - even better - "Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple igår." works.
I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
Same. Otherwise it is definitely more marked. Although the context of the phrase makes it so that you might want that anyway.
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Mon 05 Aug 2013, 15:05

Spoiler:
Aszev wrote:
Skógvur wrote:
DrGeoffStandish wrote:
basilius wrote:(3) Igår gav pojken inte mannen ett äpple.
Either "Igår gav inte pojken mannen ett äpple." or - even better - "Pojken gav inte mannen ett äpple igår." works.
I would say "i går gav pojken inte", with the negative after the subject.
Same. Otherwise it is definitely more marked. Although the context of the phrase makes it so that you might want that anyway.
More marked than what?

And what type of context may be needed to justify an alternative?
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Re: Spørsmål/frågor om skandinaviska / Questions about Scand

Post by basilius » Mon 05 Aug 2013, 19:50

Spoiler:
...For the record, and for those Danish speakers who may visit this thread: the Danish versions of my "simpler" examples.

(A)

Drengen slog ikke manden.
Manden slog drengen ikke.
- These are supposed to describe the same situation, 'The boy didn't beat/hit the man' (with different intonation and placement of phrasal stress in English), neither of the two allowing for the alternative reading, 'The man didn't beat/hit the boy'. Is this correct?
(B) I går gav drengen manden et æble.

Upon reading some more on the topic, I realize that full NP's (rather than pronouns) as prepositionless "dative" complements must be problematic in colloquial Danish. Therefore, the question is whether (B) is grammatical in conservative written language, at least.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to construe an equivalent with a "dative" pronoun. Maybe, like the following:

(B') I går gav ham drengen et æble.

- and with negation:

(B'') I går gav ham drengen ikke et æble.

- but that's essentially a wild guess.
Last edited by basilius on Thu 22 Aug 2013, 01:02, edited 1 time in total.
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