Mto

Discussions about constructed worlds, cultures and any topics related to constructed societies.
Axiem
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:33

Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:18
just pick some names, and say that that's them after the battering.
I'm just trying to figure out for any given deity which is the "particular language" that did the battering.
I'll reiterate my earlier suggestion: try writing a page or two...even if you scrap it, it will help.
I have scraps and fragments and other things that I do write—ultimately, the purpose of this is novels and short stories, after all. However, they're all over the map in regards to the deity structure, and so far haven't been super good helps. Alas, though, I don't have anywhere near as much time to write these (maybe an hour or two on an evening) as I do to ruminate upon it (driving to/from work, whenever my mind wanders at work, while I'm dealing with mundane family stuff...).

Now, if I suddenly got enough money to retire and do what I wanted to do with my time, that would be fantastic, and I would have plenty of time to actually work on this rather than think myself in circles :) But so far, the lottery has not worked in that regard.
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Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:46

Axiem wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:33
Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:18
just pick some names, and say that that's them after the battering.
I'm just trying to figure out for any given deity which is the "particular language" that did the battering.
*shrugs* an isolate that has since died out, followed by another isolate that has since been sidelined by more populated languages. (named in Sumerian, then battered in Basque, and then worshipped in Spanish and English)
I'll reiterate my earlier suggestion: try writing a page or two...even if you scrap it, it will help.
I have scraps and fragments and other things that I do write—ultimately, the purpose of this is novels and short stories, after all. However, they're all over the map in regards to the deity structure, and so far haven't been super good helps.
my bad then; sorry.
Now, if I suddenly got enough money to retire and do what I wanted to do with my time, that would be fantastic, and I would have plenty of time to actually work on this rather than think myself in circles :) But so far, the lottery has not worked in that regard.
sounds like what Patreon was invented for...unless I misunderstand what I was told about it
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Re: Mto

Post by alynnidalar » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 15:44

On the subject of keeping score, perhaps part of the scoring system could be about influence/power/control over world events. Hard to quantify for us, but gods are gods; they may have some way to measuring this that we don't fully understand. This would allow for your trickster gods--even if they don't have many followers, they could still wield immense power through more subtle means. This system would also encourage gods to play the long game rather than focus on the here-and-now of how many followers they have at this exact moment (which may or may not be what you're going for).

And of course there's always the option of having the "scoring" be a combined thing. Part of it is your number of followers, part of it is the strength and power of whatever nation you've decided to be the patron of (and perhaps this can change--if your current nation isn't going well, see if you can convince another one to worship you instead), part of it is how many artifacts and temples have been constructed in your name, part of it is how much you've managed to shape world events over time... again, the specifics of how these are measured and how they're weighted could be quite opaque to us poor mortals, while still allowing for multiple paths to victory.
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 17:25

Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:46
*shrugs* an isolate that has since died out, followed by another isolate that has since been sidelined by more populated languages. (named in Sumerian, then battered in Basque, and then worshipped in Spanish and English)
In this example, then, I'd still want to know whether to go with the Spanish or the English orthography and pronunciation for the "official" name.
Now, if I suddenly got enough money to retire and do what I wanted to do with my time, that would be fantastic, and I would have plenty of time to actually work on this rather than think myself in circles :) But so far, the lottery has not worked in that regard.
sounds like what Patreon was invented for...unless I misunderstand what I was told about it
I've certainly considered creating a Patreon, but I also don't have any sort of regular output, so that feels a little weird. And then, if people are giving me money on the regular, I start feeling like I have an obligation to keep creating, which right now can be difficult at times. And then, it's not like I have particularly many people who follow me or care about my little corner of world-building, so it seems kind of pointless.

Yes, I do spend some time thinking about how to monetize all this. But I also try not to think about it very often, because I'd rather write to write, rather than to make money.
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 17:35

alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 15:44
On the subject of keeping score
This is all stuff I've considered, and am probably going to go with—especially as that helps remove the question of "why do they let souls into each other's heavens?"

I do like the idea of a combined score of some sort, which helps add mystery and alienness to the deities. Humans need to be able to keep guessing at why the gods are doing what they're doing.

The fact that I haven't really played much Civilization and seen how its scoring system(s) work plays against me, here.

But, if the scoring system is opaque to mortals, then it can be opaque to me as author, as well. I like that idea, because then I don't need to worry about it :D And, when the deities do strange things, there's always the shrug and "they think it aids their agenda".

I'm liking the polylatristic idea more and more, though there are other artifacts from the patron-of-nation idea that I need to deal with. Most notably at the moment is that originally, the idea behind the reveals was that was also when the deity would pick their tribe/nation...and now, it might make more sense to reveal to multiple groups. I have to think on it a bit.
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Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 18:58

Axiem wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 17:25
Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 05:46
*shrugs* an isolate that has since died out, followed by another isolate that has since been sidelined by more populated languages. (named in Sumerian, then battered in Basque, and then worshipped in Spanish and English)
In this example, then, I'd still want to know whether to go with the Spanish or the English orthography and pronunciation for the "official" name.
I was thinking about this part of the discussion today, and I think I figured out why it feels odd to me: normally, when a god says "hey, THIS is My Name", worshippers go out of their way to either not mispronounce it - or to not pronounce it...YHWH is YHWH is YHWH, and Vishnu is Vishnu is Vishnu.

and you keep stating that the gods of Mto are tangibly real unlike those of our world...so why would the Mto worshippers be so brazen/disrespectful as to subject a divine Name to the phonotactics of a human language?

(if a god showed up and said "My Name is [A.ʔoʇ]"...do you really want his high priest and devout worshippers going "meh, [a.hot] is close enough" and laugh about how they're smarter than the god?)
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Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 19:02

Axiem wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 17:35
alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 15:44
The fact that I haven't really played much Civilization and seen how its scoring system(s) work plays against me, here.
then don't use Civilization as your hard-and-fast basis then?
:?:
I'm liking the polylatristic idea more and more, though there are other artifacts from the patron-of-nation idea that I need to deal with. Most notably at the moment is that originally, the idea behind the reveals was that was also when the deity would pick their tribe/nation...and now, it might make more sense to reveal to multiple groups. I have to think on it a bit.
religion also divides according to more than just nations or tribes...the religion of the ruler isn't always the religion of the nation (one of the more famous examples of that, is Jezebel having her own priests)...and both of those aren't always the popular/family/local religions. (I think I touched on local religions when I mentioned the triunes of Egypt)
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Wed 07 Feb 2018, 19:33

Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 18:58
I was thinking about this part of the discussion today, and I think I figured out why it feels odd to me: normally, when a god says "hey, THIS is My Name", worshippers go out of their way to either not mispronounce it - or to not pronounce it...YHWH is YHWH is YHWH, and Vishnu is Vishnu is Vishnu.
Do they, though? It's not like the pronunciation of deity names hasn't changed over time in our world. Even like, "Adonai" (which while isn't actually the name of YHWH, is basically used as a substitute for it, as I understand it) has changed over time, if Wiktionary is to be believed.

Though, the "not pronounce it" bit makes me think...that actually might work for a couple of these deities, where they're known purely by title, rather than name.
why would the Mto worshippers be so brazen/disrespectful as to subject a divine Name to the phonotactics of a human language?
Which is why I think it might go a bit the other way: that literally, the human languages would change their phonotactics to accommodate their language to the deity's name. (From a meta perspective, this still means that I-as-author need to figure out those phonotactics so that I can make the deity name fit them, and then explain that in-universe, it matches up nicely because the language developed for it)
(if a god showed up and said "My Name is [A.ʔoʇ]"...do you really want his high priest and devout worshippers going "meh, [a.hot] is close enough" and laugh about how they're smarter than the god?)
I don't think they'd laugh about being smarter, any more than I would laugh about being smarter than someone whose name comes from a language that includes sounds I find difficult to pronounce. In human interactions, at least, "close enough" is usually fine. With deities of varying levels of vanity, that's a very different question, I admit—but the people wouldn't laugh about their inability to pronounce it. They'd work to pronounce it, instead, I think.
Keenir wrote:
Wed 07 Feb 2018, 19:02
then don't use Civilization as your hard-and-fast basis then?
Oh, I certainly am not! However, it's one of the big sources of inspiration, and so I think looking back at how it does things can help inform decisions about how I want to do things. In much the same way that something inspired by Middle-Earth would look back and see how Tolkein did some little detail...and then use that as a springboard for something new and cool
religion also divides according to more than just nations or tribes...the religion of the ruler isn't always the religion of the nation (one of the more famous examples of that, is Jezebel having her own priests)...and both of those aren't always the popular/family/local religions. (I think I touched on local religions when I mentioned the triunes of Egypt)
Totally, and that's definitely going to play into things as well. Mind, since things are polylatristic, there's a bit less of the "you will follow exactly this mold" (although in Kuvia and Entleis, there's a lot of social pressure to do so), but with at the moment sixteen deities to play with, there's going to be a lot of difference and split going on.
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Mon 26 Feb 2018, 19:03

Here
Axiem wrote:
Mon 26 Feb 2018, 19:02
Pabappa wrote:
Sat 24 Feb 2018, 20:35
Under what circumstances, if any, is arranged marriage allowed?
In Mto,

Among the Tánsùl diaspora, those that follow the traditional ways (instead of trying to blend in to local cultures), arranged marriage is still the norm; the matriarchs of the diaspora act as match-makers, working with the mother of the child in question to find them a good match. Several of the scarf traditions around this process have been re-purposed by non-traditional Tánsùl weddings and such.

In Situnya, it's practically unheard of. There might be some wheeling and dealing among the Ten Kings and their families, but for most people, marriage is based on love and practicality. Yes, some people match-make, but that happens everywhere.

In Entleis, it's fairly uncommon, but there also aren't exactly a whole lot of long-term marriages. Men are contracted for their ability to produce offspring and care for them for the requisite time, and while there can be an "arranged" feel to this, the woman in question very much has the power, not the relatives/friends who advise her. On the other hand, the dé/shó relationship is very much arranged.

In Kuvia, the common people and slaves marry as they will, typically for love. As one goes up the social strata, however, there are more machinations and more arrangements of those sorts of things for political power. Even then, though, middle- and upper-class students may find future spouses in school or university, and form a family out of there (though their families may have opinions about that sort of thing)

In Nairu, there are traditions around courtship and marriage, but the actual pairings are rarely—if ever—pre-arranged, even among the upper classes. Again, that doesn't stop overzealous parents from match-making, but if you were to ask a random Nairu citizen, they would say there's no arranged marriages, especially not like those Whistlers (that is, the Tánsùl) have.

I don't know enough about the other dominant cultures of Mto to elaborate.
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Re: Mto

Post by Pabappa » Tue 27 Feb 2018, 05:17

Axiem wrote:
Mon 26 Feb 2018, 19:02

In Entleis, it's fairly uncommon, but there also aren't exactly a whole lot of long-term marriages. Men are contracted for their ability to produce offspring and care for them for the requisite time,
Entleis sounds like an interesting place😉
and while there can be an "arranged" feel to this, the woman in question very much has the power, not the relatives/friends who advise her. On the other hand, the dé/shó relationship is very much arranged.
I'm interested to hear more about them and their society. What are dé & shó, for example?
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Tue 27 Feb 2018, 16:09

Pabappa wrote:
Tue 27 Feb 2018, 05:17
Entleis sounds like an interesting place😉
...
I'm interested to hear more about them and their society. What are dé & shó, for example?
So, Entleis.

Entleis is a nation on an archipelago eat of Porran, on the western side of the Great Ocean (that doesn't have a better name yet). If you look at the map I shared early on, they're the E. They're also oldest continuous civilization on the planet, having been the Queendom of Entleis (in various incarnations of names) since the Unification War, which is where pretty much where the modern era starts. (Arguably, since the Unification War was a multi-year campaign to conquer the archipelago and bring it all under one rule, Entleis the political entity is older, but that's moot).

They are the chosen of Anadiel, but because I'm still working out the relationships of people to their deities and so on, I'll leave that bit alone.

Their navy is the best in the world (though word is Hîgara is catching up).

They were also the first to discover magic (courtesy Anadiel) and have been the undisputed leaders in its study and application since the Unification War (which was partly won because of their magical superiority). By and large, the terms for various things in science/magic in other languages are imports of Entleisian words. (I realize, of course, that this continued dominance is unrealistic, and the reality is probably a bit more complicated; but they've never been far from the top spot).

They are a matriarchy, with a heavy cultural preference for women over men, and the people in power are almost all women (a few men have been making some inroads, but they face an uphill battle of sexism and ridicule, because how could a man ever have the temperament to lead?).

They've gotten very good at cosmetology, the branch of science/magic that concerns itself with modifying living things, and use it heavily. There's a very distinctive look (in terms of ethnicity) they all have as a result, though I'm still working on the details (aside from the fact that they have six fingers on each hand). But it also has extended the lifespans of the women heavily—it's not unusual for women to live two or three hundred years, and it's been that way for a while.

As a result, birth rates are generally kept low, and people go through phases of their life.

Marriages, such as they are, therefore tend to be kept shorter, on more of a contract basis. Men are considered not to have the temperament for long-term relationships, so they're kept short, like in the 20–30 year range, and are usually focused on child-rearing. That's not to say that longer relationships aren't known; love does still exist, and some women choose to keep their man around a lot longer, rather than send him to his mother/sister/daughter.

The dé/shó relationships is a mentorship sort of relationship between an older woman and an pubescent girl (shades of pederasty from our own world); the dé is the older, the shó is the younger (side note: the official name of their senate is the shotlet, which has the same root). It's generally considered deeper and more firm than transient things like marriage, and showcases the abiding relationship and intimacy between women. However, it's much less frequent in the modern era partly because it derived from a military tradition (and the military's become less important as there hasn't been any big war in a long while) and also because of the vagaries of how culture changes. That said, it's more common among the aristocracy and royalty because of status and such; discussions are underway to find a dé for Princess Arithe, for instance.

I admit there's a lot of details I'm still fuzzy on; I've mostly focused on broad strokes rather than deeper details (especially as I keep having existential crises related to the composition/history of Mto in general), but there's also a lot of little things I happen to know but haven't written down.
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Fri 09 Mar 2018, 17:37

I've started poking at a new story set in Mto (in particular, set in Entleis), and without going further I've run into a number of things that are part of world-building:

- How does currency/banking work? (In particular, how does money work in a society with common matter-manipulating magic?)

- Are there photographs or equivalents?

- How do nations think of their borders? Are there passports? What expectations are there around them?

- What sorts of food do street vendors sell?

- How many people fit on a passenger boat? Would this even be a passenger boat, or would it primarily be a cargo boat that happens to carry some passengers?

- How much trade/immigration do the nations have with each other?

- How do customs/duties work? Do they even have them?

- What are toilets/bathrooms like?

- How do people handle trash?

And so on.

World-building is hard :/
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Sun 08 Apr 2018, 03:53

I can't quite seem to let go of the cosmology issue, though as I think through it and talk through it with people in real life, I may (slowly) be finally coming to some decisions. In particular with this post is that the deities distinctly don't have "domains", just "interests", but are also much more defined by their personalities and aims.

I do have a provisional list of deities, however. I don't have any whose names are from tonal languages, currently, but I might change some names or something, and add tones somewhere in the future. I don't know how much I particularly want to expand this list, though; 16 is already starting to be a lot to keep track of.

For each, I've also provided an epithet that they would be known by, also as a way of providing context for who they are and what their personalities/interests might be. In parenthesis I've provisionally provided a gender (a hyphen indicates non-binary, because N is too close to M), though those aren't necessarily set in stone.
  • * Anadiel, the Matriarch (F)
    * Chîlesa, the Scientist (F)
    * Dazev, the Diplomat (M)
    * Kältor, the Lawyer (M)
    * Korvanuq, the Wanderer (M)
    * Inoul, the Entertainer (-)
    * Ngurya, the Beautiful (F)
    * Qlazh, the Hunter (M)
    * Pfūtak, the Caretaker (F)
    * Ronesko, the Crafter (M)
    * Skrren, the Scholar (-)
    * Sùlrōsk, the Relaxed (M)
    * Tyangu, the Trickster (F)
    * Uthasi, the Fighter (F)
    * Valya, the Merchant (F)
    * Vlüskven, the Patriarch (M)
I'll probably have to sleep on this list a while, to contemplate if there are any obvious gaps (i.e. personalities I've distinctly missed) and/or if there are other changes I want to make.

That said, I'd love to have a better excuse to flesh out some of these deities. Anyone have questions, or are curious about something, or...?
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Re: Mto

Post by elemtilas » Sun 08 Apr 2018, 17:52

Axiem wrote:
Sun 08 Apr 2018, 03:53
* Tyangu, the Trickster (F)

That said, I'd love to have a better excuse to flesh out some of these deities. Anyone have questions, or are curious about something, or...?
Well, thanks for making the trickster deity a girl! Most trickster deities are boys, though some can be particularly lokisome in that regard.

So, tell us what Tyangu gets up to? Is she interested in music like Kokopelli & Huehuecoyotl?
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Sun 08 Apr 2018, 20:31

elemtilas wrote:
Sun 08 Apr 2018, 17:52
So, tell us what Tyangu gets up to? Is she interested in music like Kokopelli & Huehuecoyotl?
Tyangu wouldn't particularly be into music as music—but I'm sure she'd enjoy the music of Weird Al. She's a fan of comedy, of jests, of fun and jokes. Satire is the sort of thing she really enjoys, as is parody. So if the music is pointing fun at someone, she'd enjoy it, far more than just a chintzy love ballad. Not that she thinks love is a bad thing, mind; just that her interest lies far more in subverting the dominant order than it does romance.

That said, if she were asked her advice by a couple wanting to get married, she'd probably say something to the effect of "Go get married by Elvis in a drive-through in Las Vegas!" and happily cheer the couple.

Here's what I've written up for her before, though I don't think she's quite as mean-spirited as this makes it out to be:
Tyangu

/tʲan̩gu/

Goddess of Trickery and Deceit

Tyangu is the mistress of lies and subterfuge. She delights when people engage in deceit and bluffing, and especially loves practical jokes and other tricks. She is sometimes known as the “laughing goddess”, for she laughs alongside those who enact mischief, and blesses those who would subvert authority with that mischief. She holds disdain for those who speak plainly, and those who tell the truth. To her, life is meant to be filled with tricks and illusions, politics and backbiting, seduction and pleasure-seeking. To her, people and relationships should be tools to get what one wants, rather than to any higher cause.

Tyangu holds as her interests tricks, practical jokes, masks, secrets, lies, deceit, optical illusions, rumors, and gossip.

Tyangu’s clergy do not have an organized structure as such—and many of them would just as soon lie about their relationships to the various deities. There are some slightly more organized chapters of her followers, brought together for neophytes to learn the tools of the trade, but they tend to be temporary measures.

Tyangu is depited as a slight woman, posed in laughter or in the act of making mischief. Her clothing is that as would be worn by a spy, or by a court jester, or simply someone wishing to remain unseen; frequently, she is wearing an elaborate mask. Other symbols that sometimes accompany her are scarves or other costumes.
She is, no joke, one of my more favorite deities of the set, and is one of the ones that's probably the most fun to be around, because she'll always be making jokes and having fun with that.

She's also probably not got very many dedicated followers, but most people give small offerings to her from time to time, because most people enjoy subverting the dominant paradigm, and really, it's the least you can do for an otherwise pretty benign deity. And besides, maybe she might whisper the perfect comeback in your ear, so you can avoid the dreaded staircase wit!
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:18

Here:
Axiem wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:17
Pabappa wrote:
Sun 15 Apr 2018, 00:41
Can female forms be divine? What would your conpeople think of the modern Western concept of female angels? How about childlike "cherub" forms?
The deities of Mto have unambiguously male (e.g. Qlazh, the Hunter) nonbinary (e.g. Inoul, the Entertainer), and unambiguously female (e.g. Anadiel) deities. So to an average Mto citizen, the idea that there wouldn't be female deities is weird. The sort of thing you might only have in fantasy stories.

Focusing in on Entleis, which ends up being a nation that has a particularly close relationship with Anadiel in particular, that detail doesn't change.

The deities on Mto also all have their cadre of "angels" (as the various words would be translated into English). These tend to be people who were particularly devoted to the deity in life, and were elevated to angelic status after death; they act as messengers from the deity, along with sometimes being advocates on behalf of humans. In particular, a deity's angels often end up being a bit more focused in domains/interests, similar to the Catholic idea of saints. So from the perspective of someone on Mto, of course angels can be male or female (or whatever in-between).

I'm not entirely sure what's meant by "the modern Western concept of female angels"; my general understanding (absent research) is that the general belief is that angels are gender-neutral, but are generally depicted and described as having masculine characteristics. The people of Mto would find this gender imbalance a little weird, on the whole.

As for cherubim, that would just be utterly bizarre to an average Mto citizen. They'd think it very, very weird, mostly because they'd not be familiar with any angels that were that young (I think the youngest was probably a teenager when they died), and would wonder at the whole thing.

This is, however, also heavily influenced by the fact that Mto cosmology is rather different from our own in regards to things like deities and angels.
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Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:34

Axiem wrote:She is, no joke, one of my more favorite deities of the set, and is one of the ones that's probably the most fun to be around, because she'll always be making jokes and having fun with that.

She's also probably not got very many dedicated followers, but most people give small offerings to her from time to time, because most people enjoy subverting the dominant paradigm,
who the what now? (or "whats that when its at home?")
and really, it's the least you can do for an otherwise pretty benign deity. And besides, maybe she might whisper the perfect comeback in your ear, so you can avoid the dreaded staircase wit!
Do people offer her offerings so they don't get jokes or 'fun' at them?
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Re: Mto

Post by Axiem » Mon 16 Apr 2018, 17:48

Keenir wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:34
who the what now? (or "whats that when its at home?")
See: the put-upon wife who claps back at her overbearing husband. Or the mischievous who points out the parents' rampant hypocrisy. Or a satirist, penning a story to run in a local magazine.
Do people offer her offerings so they don't get jokes or 'fun' at them?
I'm not really sure how much I want there to be "warding" offerings, in the general case. I don't like the idea of it becoming a protection racket sort of thing—and really, Tyangu is among the least to honor or respect that sort of arrangement, anyway. But it's also a bit of an undecided question, in my case.
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Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 03:58

Axiem wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 17:48
Keenir wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:34
who the what now? (or "whats that when its at home?")
See: the put-upon wife who claps back at her overbearing husband. Or the mischievous who points out the parents' rampant hypocrisy. Or a satirist, penning a story to run in a local magazine.
Hm...I can understand the satirist; not sure how pointing out that parents apply rules tougher to their kids (or usually do)....but wouldn't the put-upon wife make an offering to a deity who could either stop her husband's actions (one way or another) or get her somewhere better? (yes, i know, some people want to stay in such relationships, thinking its the only love they'd get/deserve/etc, so a snap or clap might suffice)
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
Keenir
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runic
Posts: 2502
Joined: Tue 22 May 2012, 02:05

Re: Mto

Post by Keenir » Tue 17 Apr 2018, 03:59

Axiem wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 17:48
Keenir wrote:
Mon 16 Apr 2018, 05:34
Do people offer her offerings so they don't get jokes or 'fun' at them?
I'm not really sure how much I want there to be "warding" offerings, in the general case. I don't like the idea of it becoming a protection racket sort of thing—and really, Tyangu is among the least to honor or respect that sort of arrangement, anyway. But it's also a bit of an undecided question, in my case.
*shrugs* some people (like me) would make such warding offerings just to be on the safe side...no matter what she or her priests say.
At work on Apaan: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4799
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