The History of the Greater West

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elemtilas
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Re: The History of the Greater West

Post by elemtilas » Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:35

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:15
There are three Revelations in "Their" NT: The Revelation to St. John the Divine, which is missing the first three chapters, the "Number of the Beast" and has a very different view of the "Whore of Babylon", The Revelation to the Apostle Saul, which records what he supposedly saw and heard at the "Vision at the Border Town", and The Revelation and Confession of Judas the Accursed, where Jesus appears to Saul during his House Imprisonment, and Shows him the soul of Judas in Hell, who confesses his sin, but to no avail, and then points out places in Hell, to which Saul is guided by Jesus; It may be seen as a Canonical version of Dante's Inferno.
Oo, interesting!

Do you have the Revelation of Saul written, or is it more conceptual? Would be interesting to compare with the Gospel of Judas (from The World). There, the vision is also of Judas in Hell, but, having played his ordained part, he is taken out when once Jesus has ransacked the place and put paid to the proprietors.
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Shemtov
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Re: The History of the Greater West

Post by Shemtov » Wed 07 Mar 2018, 03:15

elemtilas wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:35
Shemtov wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:15
There are three Revelations in "Their" NT: The Revelation to St. John the Divine, which is missing the first three chapters, the "Number of the Beast" and has a very different view of the "Whore of Babylon", The Revelation to the Apostle Saul, which records what he supposedly saw and heard at the "Vision at the Border Town", and The Revelation and Confession of Judas the Accursed, where Jesus appears to Saul during his House Imprisonment, and Shows him the soul of Judas in Hell, who confesses his sin, but to no avail, and then points out places in Hell, to which Saul is guided by Jesus; It may be seen as a Canonical version of Dante's Inferno.
Oo, interesting!

Do you have the Revelation of Saul written, or is it more conceptual? Would be interesting to compare with the Gospel of Judas (from The World). There, the vision is also of Judas in Hell, but, having played his ordained part, he is taken out when once Jesus has ransacked the place and put paid to the proprietors.
The Revelation of Saul, or as it's more commonly known, to differentiate it from the two other Revelations, The Vision, is different from The Revelation and Confession of Judas the Accursed,, whose nickname is Confession of Judas. The first is what Saul saw when he was called by Jesus. It Begins with the language of Acts 26:13-18:
The record and witness of Saul, Apostle and Slave or the Lord Christ Jesus, when he came the border town: I saw a light from heaven, brighter than the sun, shining around me and my companions. When we had all fallen to the ground, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It hurts you to kick against the goads.’ I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’ The Lord answered, ‘I am Jesus whom you are persecuting. But get up and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to appoint you to serve and testify to the things in which you have seen and to those in which I will appear to you. I will rescue you from your people and from the Gentiles—to whom I am sending you to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
It continues:
Behold- the Gentiles- I send you to them. Let me tell you of Salvation to the Foreskinned
And then lays out basic Sauline Theology.
Confession of Judas is a second Vision of Saul, where Judas is condemned in the harshest terms (an edited version of Gospel of Judas does appear in the Simonist scriptures.):
Then Judas shouted "Lord, Lord, O Lord, i have sinned. You heard my confession to this man Saul. Redeem me in your Grace." But The Lord Christ replied: "Judas, Judas, O Judas, what can I do for you? If you not taken your own life, if you, in life, had submitted to death, and to me, then I would have raised you, and your betrayal would be forgotten by all. But now you have died- it is too late- you cannot be Saved."
Another important difference is that the Gospel of John and the Petrine Epistles do not exist in their canon, but both are replaced by The Gospel According to Peter, which is a sayings Gospel, like Thomas, but is put in the context of a discourse given by Jesus just before his triumphal entry to Jerusalem. It contains a reparation of Matthew's Sermon on the Mount, with some additions of Luke's Sermon in the Plain, interspersed with Various Johanine parables, things that appear in the IRL Petrine letters, and the first thing Jesus says is:
In the Beginning,I was the word. And as the Word I was with G-d and was G-d. Through me all things were made; without me nothing was made that has been made.In Me was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.My light shines in the darkness, and the darkness will never overcome me.You do not understand this- some of you may swear me off for this- but you will understand when the Son of Man rises.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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Shemtov
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Re: The History of the Greater West

Post by Shemtov » Fri 09 Mar 2018, 23:11

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 07 Mar 2018, 03:15

Another important difference is that the Gospel of John and the Petrine Epistles do not exist in their canon, but both are replaced by The Gospel According to Peter, which is a sayings Gospel, like Thomas, but is put in the context of a discourse given by Jesus just before his triumphal entry to Jerusalem.
I want to add the reason for this:
Early churches Canon Lists did include the Four IRL Gospels- Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. However, a Sect called The Johanines, reacted to what they called"The Unharmony of The Gospels", that is, the nature of the Last Supper, and the date of the Crucifixion, by only accepting John as the true Gospel, with Matthew's Nativity inserted after the Prologue. Many of what would become "Orthodox" churches reacted to this by removing John, accepting the charges of "disharmony", but wanted a text that taught Johanine ideas, and wanted "four gospels" as that had became an essential part of their Christianity, seized on The Gospel According to Peter, which was a sayings gospel attributed to Peter (it was a compilation of the Petrine Epistles, with parts of Matthew and Luke added to make it look like that even though it was recorded by Peter, Jesus said the contents) with heavy Johanine edits, as a replacement. Many of these Churches had accepted the The Gospel According to Peter either as a book called The Last Sermon , or as an addition to Mark, just before the Entry record there.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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Re: The History of the Greater West

Post by eldin raigmore » Sat 17 Mar 2018, 22:36

Oh, wow! [O.O] Oh, wow!
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Shemtov
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Re: The History of the Greater West

Post by Shemtov » Thu 05 Jul 2018, 00:04

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 21 Feb 2018, 20:15
. There is also an Epistle To the Athenians,
This is a short letter, one chapter, of 33 verses. It is placed after Philemon, as the early Canon-builders had trouble placing it: It is addressed to "The Church in Athens" AND "Dionysus, leader of those not of the seed of Abraham by blood in that Church", and has aspects of both the Church-addressed Epistles and the Pastorals. Later Theologians would consider it a unique kind of Epistle: The Evangelical Epistle.
It gives advice how Christians in the early Church should convert non-Jews "Do not be dragged into philosophical debate about their idols: Rather, prove the Prophets and Moses to them: But always intertwine how the Prophets foresaw Christ Jesus: His Crucifixion and Resurrection: The same proof your brothers give to Jews: Intertwined these proofs shall be: Like a well-woven tapestry,: Beautiful to the eyes, so be well-woven and proper to the ears:"-6-13.
It then goes on about keeping Christians "Faithful to the G-d of the Prophets, the Father of Christ", and then reiterates the points of 6-13.
In addition, the Christian OT is different there. In addition to the books of the Jewish Tanakh, it contains all the additional books of IRL Eastern Church, Enoch, and the Testament of the Twelve Tribes (Known there as the Wills of the Twelve Tribes). This last one is there to match with an additional NT book: The Wills of the Eleven Loyal Apostles, placed after the Catholic Epistles and before the Apocalypses, that give the supposed farewell speeches of each of the 11 Apostles. this was probably the last book written, The Will of Peter repeating a lot of The Gospel of Peter "As The Lord said".
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
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