Official Waxworld Thread

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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 04:54

Yes, eldin, I've thought of that extremely. The biota I've shown are merely steeping points on how I'll analyse the species of Wiwaxworld
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 15:54

qwed117 wrote:Yes, eldin, I've thought of that extremely. The biota I've shown are merely steeping points on how I'll analyse the species of Wiwaxworld
I will follow with interest!
qwed117 wrote:... steeping points ...
New phrase for me.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 16:05

Stepping stones. I was sleept when I made it
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 16 Jun 2017, 17:42

qwed117 wrote:Stepping stones. I was sleept when I made it
I thimk you made another tpyo. I'm sury you meant "slerpy" nstead of "sleept".

:mrgreen: Fear not; I know you did it on purpose! I got and enjoyed the joke; I'm just "milking" it! :mrgreen:
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 17 Jun 2017, 23:15

Wiwaxworld
I like this name better. [B)]
I am a sucker for reduplication
From the :got: *waiwôhs IRREG.PST of *wiwahsojan 'to grow moltenly', 'to melt and pool', 'to accrete in a gooey, sticky way'
:roll:
Steeping stones.
Stones will most surely steep when thrown into molten wax. Good luck getting some kind of purchase on them, though. [:x]
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 15:15

qwed117 sorta kinda wrote:Yes, eldin, I've thought of that ... The biota I've shown are merely [initial notions] on how I'll analyse the species of Waxworld
After a few days of searching on the web, I found many kinds of radial symmetry documented as occurring in biochemistry (20-fold proteins e.g.) and cellular biology (9-fold organelles e.g.) and virology (17-fold!) and various non-animal organisms and non-biology sciences, but only the following documented on the web as occurring in animal phyla and classes and such-like taxa:
4-fold
5-fold
6-fold
8-fold
I strongly suspect this is incomplete, at least if we also include extinct phyla and classes, because in the game SimEarth there's a 3-fold radially symmetric taxon based on a known extinct RL taxon. But maybe the game-makers were wrong. OTOH maybe that group just never made it onto a web-page prominent enough to show up in my searches so far.
Saw a pizza-commercial with a 28-fold radially symmetric pizza. Not sure that's biologically significant, though.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 15:41

Excluding the fact that brittle stars and starfish are technically bilateral, some echinoderms can have 11 legs, thus equating to 11-fold radial symmetry.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 17:42

qwed117 wrote:Excluding the fact that brittle stars and starfish are technically bilateral, some echinoderms can have 11 legs, thus equating to 11-fold radial symmetry.
They may have up to 11 legs (or more) b/c some one chomped off a leg, and one or two grew back. Numbers of legs in those kinds of regenerative life-forms is not always a clear indication of equivalent-lateral symmetry.
:wat:
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 17:46

eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 sorta kinda wrote:Yes, eldin, I've thought of that ... The biota I've shown are merely [initial notions] on how I'll analyse the species of Waxworld
After a few days of searching on the web, I found many kinds of radial symmetry documented as occurring in biochemistry (20-fold proteins e.g.) and cellular biology (9-fold organelles e.g.) and virology (17-fold!) and various non-animal organisms and non-biology sciences, but only the following documented on the web as occurring in animal phyla and classes and such-like taxa:
4-fold
5-fold
6-fold
8-fold
I strongly suspect this is incomplete, at least if we also include extinct phyla and classes, because in the game SimEarth there's a 3-fold radially symmetric taxon based on a known extinct RL taxon. But maybe the game-makers were wrong. OTOH maybe that group just never made it onto a web-page prominent enough to show up in my searches so far.
Do you speak of the Trilobozoa?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobozoa

Saw a pizza-commercial with a 28-fold radially symmetric pizza. Not sure that's biologically significant, though.
In this household, pizza is biologically significant for(questionable) nutrition. [B)]
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 17:55

Lambuzhao wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Excluding the fact that brittle stars and starfish are technically bilateral, some echinoderms can have 11 legs, thus equating to 11-fold radial symmetry.
They may have up to 11 legs (or more) b/c some one chomped off a leg, and one or two grew back. Numbers of legs in those kinds of regenerative life-forms is not always a clear indication of equivalent-lateral symmetry.
:wat:
Wait a sec... don't echinoderms have pentamerous radial symmetry? Crinoids do, and if you flip a sea-urchin over, that stoma/cloaca/pore-thing it has is pentagonal-shaped.
:wat:
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Sun 18 Jun 2017, 19:18

Lambuzhao wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Excluding the fact that brittle stars and starfish are technically bilateral, some echinoderms can have 11 legs, thus equating to 11-fold radial symmetry.
They may have up to 11 legs (or more) b/c some one chomped off a leg, and one or two grew back. Numbers of legs in those kinds of regenerative life-forms is not always a clear indication of equivalent-lateral symmetry.
:wat:
Wait a sec... don't echinoderms have pentamerous radial symmetry? Crinoids do, and if you flip a sea-urchin over, that stoma/cloaca/pore-thing it has is pentagonal-shaped.
:wat:
Not really. The point at which radial symmetry is considered is actually the larval stage of the animal. As a result the larval stage of echinoderms are strictly bilateral. Not all of them are 5 or 10 fold symmetry. One, as I had mentioned before has 11 legs, even without injury and regrowth
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 07:26

Here's a post I intended to make earlier, its a dump of me and DesEsseintes Q&A, but condensed (haha jk) and with more detail and less idle banter.

There are birds on Waxworld; they are somewhat larger in size than most Terran birds. There are a wide variety of species all adapted to different niches on the planet. Helping their diversity is the lowered gravity of Waxworld. Waxworld's gravity is somewhat lower than Earth's gravity. It's roughly 99% of Earth's gravity though, so don't expect any tremendous difference. The interesting thing though is that large gravity anomalies exist on Waxworld. These anomalies, which can decrease the local gravity by up to 20%, are caused by wax in the core suddenly decomposing, and forming large CO2 and CH4 bubbles. Over long periods of time the heavy pressure ultimately crushes the bubble, and slowly the gases (or more likely, heavily compressed liquids) become solid yet again. This and redistribution of the wax/carbon metal core ultimately even out the world.

I don't know what the wax really is. Virtually all waxes have densities of around .85, not anything close to 1.03. My current solution is that the wax is made significantly of shellac (which has a density of 1.1), and contains similarly heavy wax compounds, especially carbon chains with a significant aromatic component. In addition, there might be large amounts of "strange" organic compounds given the fact that the conditions the waxes are undergoing are more similar to laboratory conditions than Earth conditions. That's my handwaving. Arguably, the chemical reality of the surface is a harsh carcinogen filled world. The local species will likely have a more stable and protected genetic code. Either that, or they'll just "deal" with the increased risk of genetic mutations, and just have a more foolproof system.
Despite the seeming problems with life on Waxworld, it indeed proves to be a better subtracted for the development of animal life in particular. The metal cations that inhibited the growth of vermiform phyla from which we derive don't exist in the same quantities. In addition, the oxygen sinks that prevented an early oxygenation of our planet are not present on Waxworld. This means that mitochondria and chloroplasts develop significantly earlier than on Earth.
Now given the spec-evo nature of this project, the question of where humans come from may (rightfully) pop up into your mind. A congregation of waxworld Ian species elected Hillac Clinton instead of Lanoldin Trump. No wall was built and humans invaded. All jokes aside, humans are a recent addition to the biosphere of Waxworld. Humans in this universe created a massive space-faring civilization. Then the civilization plunged into a Star Wars-level war, with the whole Strategic Defense Initiative Death Star stuff and what not. Originally there were three planets in the system: a prosperous Terran planet Z2, a small Mercurian planet Z1, one that flung too close to the sun, and our beloved Waxworld Z3. Waxworld was a planet enshrouded in mystery and intrigue, given how it seemed to be habitable, yet was marked a peril on all official maps.
Of course, unbeknownst to the rest of the universe, the planet was not particularly perilous, unless one had happeed to seek the planet out as a refueling station, in which case they would be greeted by little more than the vast expanse of sea. No, the planet was the primary mining source for diamonds in the galaxy. Alas, it was allied with the Rebellion faction, and was destoyed (Oh Jesus is this Star Wars?) It was thought to have been the source behind the materiel of the Rebellion, and indeed the Rebellion came crumbling later, with no diamonds to supply their wealth. The rest of the galaxy has remembered the system as little more than the tragedy to be incurred when facing down the Republic (You even copied the names, you lazy ass). But on waxworld, unseen life continues on. (You even sound like Yoda) The little colony has grown intp a world alone. Without supply from the outside, Waxworlders are forced to survive and struggle in the surprisingly harsh conditions of their planet. But when the last rebel ship crash lands... (I bet C3P0 is gonna walk out. WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT'S POE)

I never realized how much Star Wars has pervaded my Sci-first thinking.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by GamerGeek » Mon 19 Jun 2017, 07:47

qwed117 wrote:I never realized how much Star Wars has pervaded my Sci-first thinking.
haha
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 03:28

Lambuzhao wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:... in the game SimEarth there's a 3-fold radially symmetric taxon based on a known extinct RL taxon. ....
Do you speak of the Trilobozoa?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobozoa
It appears to be (or to have been) Tribrachidium heraldicum.
That article says that's the best-known species of Trilobozoa.

(Short answer: "Yes".)

qwed117 wrote:Excluding the fact that brittle stars and starfish are technically bilateral, some echinoderms can have 11 legs, thus equating to 11-fold radial symmetry.
Wow! Which ones? Pictures? Links?
Lambuzhao wrote:Wait a sec... don't echinoderms have pentamerous radial symmetry? Crinoids do, and if you flip a sea-urchin over, that stoma/cloaca/pore-thing it has is pentagonal-shaped.
:wat:
Yes, adults are mostly pentamerous. Larva are mostly bilaterally symmetric.
Edit:
http://tolweb.org/Echinodermata wrote:Pentaradial body organization in adults.
The adults of all extant echinoderms are radially symmetrical. A superficial bilateral organization has evolved twice, in irregular echinoids and holothuroids, but is based on an underlying five-fold organization of skeleton and most organ systems, and is clearly secondary. Higher order radial symmetry (e.g., seven-fold or nine-fold) has evolved on several occasions, and is also clearly a secondary modification. The evolutionary origins of five-fold symmetry remain obscure. Some early Paleozoic echinoderms are not radially symmetrical (e.g., carpoids and helicoplacoids), while a possible echinoderm from the Vendian (Arkarua) has five-fold radial body organization.
qwed117 wrote:Not really. The point at which radial symmetry is considered is actually the larval stage of the animal. As a result the larval stage of echinoderms are strictly bilateral. Not all of them are 5 or 10 fold symmetry. One, as I had mentioned before has 11 legs, even without injury and regrowth
Not 100% sure I perfectly understand qwed's remarks above.
Which echinoderms -- or other animals, extant or extinct -- have either larval or adult radial symmetry other than 4-fold, 5-fold, 6-fold, or 8-fold?
We've got some extinct 3-fold radially symmetric trilobozoans; at least, at some life-stage.
Some cnidara and/or ctenophora are 4-fold radially symmetric (tetramerous) at at least some life-stage.
Most echinoderms are 5-fold radially symmetric (pentamerous) at at least some lifestage (adulthood?).
Some animals, I forget which, are 6-fold radially symmetric (hexamerous? is that a word?), either primarily (as young) or secondarily (as adults).
One large taxon of corals is 8-fold radially symmetric; at least, at some life-stage (probably adulthood). (Not octopada; they are bilaterally symmetric. Only the distribution of arms is mostly 8-fold radially symmetric; other organs, including external organs, such as eyes and mouth-parts, are bilaterally symmetric.)

Are there any animals that are radially symmetric when young and become bilaterally symmetric as adults?

Which animals are or were 2-fold radially symmetric (not quite the same as bilaterally symmetric! rotation by 180 degrees is not the same as reflection!) at some point in their life later than the embryonic (e.g., as larvae or imagos or fetuses or adults)?
Which animals are 7-fold radially symmetric at some point in their life later than the embryonic (e.g., as larvae or imagos or fetuses or adults)?
Which animals are 9-fold radially symmetric at some point in their life later than the embryonic (e.g., as larvae or imagos or fetuses or adults)?
Which animals are 10-fold radially symmetric at some point in their life later than the embryonic (e.g., as larvae or imagos or fetuses or adults)?
Which animals are 11-fold radially symmetric at some point in their life later than the embryonic (e.g., as larvae or imagos or fetuses or adults)?

In answering all the above questions, what are some references that say that answer?
Are there any URLs linking to any of those references?
If so, what are some?
Do any of those references have pictures?
Which ones?
Do any of the links go to any of those references-with-pictures?

Liked the post about the birds and the waxes!
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 04:35

From what I understand echinoderms have a large variety in the degree of their radial symmetry. The 11-armed starfish I referred to was the Reef starfish.

I had thought Lambuzhao's comment about pentamerous radial symmetry was confusion at my statement that echinoderms are "technically bilateral", a statement based on the current cladology placing it in Bilateria, which doesn't look like it is to ever change. To my knowledge the only animals that have true radial symmetry are Cnidarians and Ctenophora. Other than Trilobozoa, I have never heard of a radial symmetry below 5. There is an 8-folded coral called (quite expectably) Octocoral. There are also aradially symmetric Echinoderms (likely a basal group) named Homolozoa. There should be an image at every link.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Tue 20 Jun 2017, 05:06

I'm just gonna post a few "Late night" thoughts on Waxworld.

Urusu Linua/ Uruf Lima will likely be spoken on this planet, meaning that the family, remote, isolate terminology distinction will likely be relevant when designing the names of the various toponyms. This makes sense and also adds complexity onto the history, making the planet more Earth-like and less Tatooine. Then again, Tatooine is pretty close to Earth...
The remote languages were likely remnants of old attempts of colonization that were lost or forgotten. The main attempts at colonization were all unified and as a result these languages have formed a large family, that is faintly reconstructible.
I guess some conspiracy in the styles of Jeanne Duprau/City of Ember will pull it all together.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 21 Jun 2017, 07:12

qwed117 wrote:From what I understand echinoderms have a large variety in the degree of their radial symmetry. The 11-armed starfish I referred to was the Reef starfish.
Wow! [O.O] Thanks! [:)]

qwed117 wrote:I had thought Lambuzhao's comment about pentamerous radial symmetry was confusion at my statement that echinoderms are "technically bilateral", a statement based on the current cladology placing it in Bilateria, which doesn't look like it is to ever change.
Yes, I see what you mean, and I also see how it might have been confusing.
Adults are pentamerous, not bilateral; larvae are bilateral, not pentamerous.
Because larvae are bilateral, the animals belong in the "Bilateria" clade.
Nevertheless, the adults are pentamerous.

qwed117 wrote: To my knowledge the only animals that have true radial symmetry are Cnidarians and Ctenophora.
qwed117 wrote: ... true ...
You mean "both as larvae and as adults"?
That was my impression; I just didn't know whether I recalled correctly or not.

But I wouldn't say the pentamerous adult echinoderms, with their five-fold symmetry even unto their internal organs, are "technically bilateral", nor bilateral with any other adverb.
I'd just say their larvae are bilateral and their clade belongs in the Bilaterans.

I also wouldn't say that radial symmetry isn't "true" radial symmetry unless it's life-long.
I'd just say that only certain life-stages were radially symmetric in most species with any radial symmetry.

qwed117 wrote: Other than Trilobozoa,
And tetramerous Cnidara and Ctenophora!
qwed117 wrote:I have never heard of a radial symmetry below 5.
So, no 2-fold rotationally symmetric animal? Neither have I.

qwed117 wrote:There is an 8-folded coral called (quite expectably) Octocoral.
That's the ones I was thinking of! I couldn't think of the name --- or, rather, whenever I thought of "Octocoral" I also thought "Naah, that can't be it!"

qwed117 wrote:There arewere also aradially symmetric Echinoderms (likely a basal group) named Homolozoa.
Very interesting!
qwed117 wrote:There should be an image at every link.
And there is! Thank you very much!

[hr][/hr]
[hr][/hr]
[hr][/hr]
Edit: I still am looking forward to the birds!
Also, I liked the post about language and colonization!
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 23 Jun 2017, 01:26

qwed117 wrote: .... Urusu Linua/ Uruf Lima ....
What's that?

qwed117 wrote: .... Jeanne Duprau/City of Ember ....
What's that?
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Fri 23 Jun 2017, 02:06

eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 wrote: .... Urusu Linua/ Uruf Lima ....
What's that?
One of my conlangs
eldin raigmore wrote:
qwed117 wrote: .... Jeanne Duprau/City of Ember ....
What's that?
It's an author/book series. It has a highly improbably running plot talking about a conspiracy to hide that there was a world beyond a city enshrouded by darkness except for the artificial lights that keep the city alive.
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Re: Official Waxworld Thread

Post by qwed117 » Tue 04 Jul 2017, 05:21

I've been rethinking the concept of land formation on this specific world.

Firstly, I think the density of the planet will be somewhat higher than the 990 kg/m3 that I've cited, given the current geology I've posted. I'm using a density of 1300 kg/m3, and with a slight adjustment to the gravitational acceleration of the planet (it is now slightly less than Earth @ 9.80) The current equation for the radius is r = (9.8*3*10^11)/pi/4/1300/6.67408/1000 km. That's 26965 km, only 1600 km greater than Uranus, nearly 10000 km less than the previous numbers, and it could reduce further depending on how low I want the gravitational acceleration to go.

The core is roughly 26% of the radius of the planet, at 7000 km, larger than Earth. It is filled with a liquid metallic carbon allotrope. The allotrope's density is roughly 5 g/cm3. The liquid itself is probably at a temperature of 7000~9000 C and at a pressure of 600 GPa. Above that level is the solid mantle, a relatively solid layer of large polycyclic aromatic carbons that have formed extreme polymers at the pressure. Because of the strange polymerization processes, it has a high amount of carbon nanotubes and dissipates core heat surprisingly well, allowing the temperature to only be a mere 2900 C at the lowest, and only 5600 C at the highest. This is closest to the outer core of Earth, but is significantly larger (of course), occupying a 11000 km radius. The liquid mantle above has a 8500 km radius and is significantly cooler than the layer below it, only topping at 3000 C, and dropping to 500 C at the border with the crust.

The crust is a behemoth, nearly 400 km thick, nearly 6 times the size of Earth's crust. It is made largely of water and wax, unlike the layers below it, meaning it is much less dense than the rest of the planet. The bottom 150 km is largely a thick layer of wax that "floats" above the mantle (actually a thin layer of water in between the two). Despite all the "floating" the movement doesn't produce tectonics, since the crust is really a thick shell. The remainder of the planet was water. Through the water, large spires of wax float up. Upon reaching the surface of the water (hereon referred to as "sea level") the wax spreads out into a pancake, creating a structure quite similar to a mushroom. Most of the time, the spires do not reach the surface, instead forming a spiky underground surface. More rarely, instead of a spire forming from a hole punched in the wax crust, a crack forms along the crust, and the crust is pushed up several hundred feet. While the wax islands usually readjust, falling down the spike along which it formed until it arrives at sea level, occasionally, they are severed from the spire and either float or sink. The exposed spire quickly degrades above sea level, and should the island fall down the spire, it usually tends to resurface as a mountain on the surface of island.
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