Magic and Gods on Yantas

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sangi39
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 22:48

Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 21 Nov 2017, 21:58
Could a philosopher in Yantas propose then, that humans are just gods that still have their physical bodies and thus are not yet 'allmighty'?
Assuming that they could come to understand that this is the way things work "in the real world", then yes. The same would also hold true of the Kovur.

As with the magical field and deities, however, this is one of those aspects of Yantas that goes on behind the scenes, so while they might be more or less correct in stating that, the evidence from which they'd draw that conclusion would be indirect.

On the other hand, deities arise directly from the magical field through belief, which ancestral figures are remnants, so the two are distinct in terms of their origins, although they function in essentially the same ways (I'd be tempted to say that at least early on, souls of the deceased have a greater ability to affect the physical world than deities do in their early days, because of the previous link to the physical world, but then physical interaction is dependent on belief, so souls tend towards growing less interactive while deities tend toward becoming more interactive, especially in cultures where remembering ancestors is less important).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 23:06

Can deceased immediatly communicate with the living?
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 21 Nov 2017, 23:42

Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 21 Nov 2017, 23:06
Can deceased immediatly communicate with the living?
My thinking at the moment it no, at least not in a way we'd recognise. They'd be able to nudge things here and there, and their presence would cause changes in the air (think your stereotypical signs of "ghosts", air gets colder, things move around, the floor creeks), but direct communication would have to be learnt over time and would predominantly occur "inside the head" of the living person (in the same way deities communicate).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by gestaltist » Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:25

I like this idea. If you go with it, a byproduct of historiography will be generation of deities, which is quite original.

One thing you might want to think about: to what extent is the "soul" affected by the contents of their connection to the real world. E.g., if a cruel tyrant starts an empire and is whitewashed by later generations of historians, will his divine form be more like he was in life, or more like what people remember him as.
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Fri 19 Jan 2018, 04:32

gestaltist wrote:
Wed 22 Nov 2017, 10:25
I like this idea. If you go with it, a byproduct of historiography will be generation of deities, which is quite original.

One thing you might want to think about: to what extent is the "soul" affected by the contents of their connection to the real world. E.g., if a cruel tyrant starts an empire and is whitewashed by later generations of historians, will his divine form be more like he was in life, or more like what people remember him as.
Took me long enough to notice this post [:P]

It's a damn good question. Initially, I'd say that what's happening there is a) belief that that person existed, but b) belief in a different "version" of that person takes over. Honestly, I'm not sure how that might be resolved. On the one hand, people are definitely remembering their name. On the other hand, they aren't remembering who they actually were.

My initial thought is that the original personality of the deceased wouldn't be directly affected by changes in perception of the deceased (if they change at all, then it would be a conscious effort in response to changes in perception). So if you've got this complete and utter sadist who's remembered for centuries after his death, and he managed to hold on for a bit, then all of a sudden people start thinking "huh, maybe he was actually all right, look at all the lovely mooses". He'd have two choices (at least), a) keep on being a malevolent spirit, or b) actually start "being nice".

What I'd imagine would happen is that a "nice" version of him would arise from the magical field through mere belief, which he then has to compete with. Either change and survive, or be out-competed by the newer, more popular version of youself.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by Ànradh » Sat 20 Jan 2018, 02:43

I love that idea.
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by Salmoneus » Mon 22 Jan 2018, 14:57

sangi39 wrote:
Fri 19 Jan 2018, 04:32
Initially, I'd say that what's happening there is a) belief that that person existed, but b) belief in a different "version" of that person takes over. Honestly, I'm not sure how that might be resolved. On the one hand, people are definitely remembering their name. On the other hand, they aren't remembering who they actually were.
...
What I'd imagine would happen is that a "nice" version of him would arise from the magical field through mere belief, which he then has to compete with. Either change and survive, or be out-competed by the newer, more popular version of youself.
This seems philosophically troubling. You are implicitly comparing this case where our "memory" of someone isn't "who they actually were" but of another "version" of them.... with presumably some case where our "memory" of someone IS "who they actually were" and NOT "a different version". This doesn't immediately seem sustainable to me. Surely all remembering is misremembering?
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by gestaltist » Mon 22 Jan 2018, 15:15

Salmoneus wrote:
Mon 22 Jan 2018, 14:57
sangi39 wrote:
Fri 19 Jan 2018, 04:32
Initially, I'd say that what's happening there is a) belief that that person existed, but b) belief in a different "version" of that person takes over. Honestly, I'm not sure how that might be resolved. On the one hand, people are definitely remembering their name. On the other hand, they aren't remembering who they actually were.
...
What I'd imagine would happen is that a "nice" version of him would arise from the magical field through mere belief, which he then has to compete with. Either change and survive, or be out-competed by the newer, more popular version of youself.
This seems philosophically troubling. You are implicitly comparing this case where our "memory" of someone isn't "who they actually were" but of another "version" of them.... with presumably some case where our "memory" of someone IS "who they actually were" and NOT "a different version". This doesn't immediately seem sustainable to me. Surely all remembering is misremembering?
The way I understood it is that memory/belief creates deities, and the "original" deity would remain due to latent belief/memory, and a new one emerges due to the new, incompatible belief.

But I agree it requires some thought: everybody believes/remembers things differently. Are deities really beings or is there some universal "belief field" upon which people's beliefs are impressed and this belief field radiates back somehow?
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Re: Magic and Gods on Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 23 Jan 2018, 18:10

Hmmm, good point... To the laboratory!!!
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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