Naming Practices

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holbuzvala
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Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala » Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58

How do names work in your conculture? Are people given names at birth? Do people inherit names of their parents? Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Are names chosen by an elder/shaman? Do people of a shared tribe/clan share a name? Do siblings share a name? Etc.

And secondly, what do names mean? Are they special grammatical forms of words? Are they deliberately meaningless lexemes? Are they portmonteaus of qualities parents desire in a child? (Like kind + generous = Kinderous)

Let me know! I’m curious. And then I’ll post how the System for Azvolaj speakers works :)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by gestaltist » Fri 24 Nov 2017, 14:15

As luck would have it, I am working on the naming practices of an as of yet unpublished conculture. I have decided that a full name for a member of such a conculture will consist of three elements: family name, birthname, and a nickname.

The family name take a special noun class prefix modifying the root for a given clan. It is always given first when presenting someone, and is considered as the most important, as this conculture cares a lot about social standing and ancestry. (I am currently deliberating on how close-knit the clans should be, and what the role of the clan's head is. We'll see. They will be definitely an important part of everybody's life.)

The birthname is the name given to the child by the parents and/or their extended family at birth. It is always meaningful, and often consists of several words. It can be something that the parents felt represents their feelings for the child (something like our name "Rose" or "Lily"). It can link to the child's birthplace (naming children after rivers, towns, etc., is common.) Finally, for the upper classes, it can be meant to convey the high status of the family. (E.g., a lot of noble names contain the word for "elephant" or "silk" as owning either is a tell-tale sign of wealth. So you can have names like "Golden Elephant", "Elephant Tusk", "Silk Scarf" or even "Silken Elephant".) I have modeled this after the naming conventions of Ancient Greece to an extent.

Finally, the nickname is typically a name a person earned through their behavior. They could have more than one nickname, frequently depending on the social context (e.g., a childhood nickname used by their friends, a nickname earned in their profession, and another one used by their spouse). The nickname can be given by others or invented by the person bearing it. Its legitimacy hinges on its actual usage. It is often also meaningful like the birthname but it will usually be short and to-the-point. It can also be onomatopoeic or ideophonic.

People are usually referred to by their nickname if they've earned one in a given social circle. Family name + birthname are used in formal contexts and when talking to strangers/people outside own social group or higher on the social ladder (e.g., when a noble speaks with commoners, commoners would never be allowed to use a nickname when talking to the noble. The noble could have nicknames for the commoners, though.)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by lsd » Fri 24 Nov 2017, 17:24

In language a priori (called philosphic language), I always hesitate between:
- folk Native American names (I don't know if true) where an event of life baptizes the one who lived it...
- Mandarin Chinese where any syllables chosen, especially for foreign names, are meaningfull...
- some western names where the circumstances of the birth are evoked (dolores, désiré,...)
- modern societies where everyone wears a number often from his place and date of birth...
(already posted in viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6415 )
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala » Fri 24 Nov 2017, 20:58

Very interesting! I like the mix of given names from family, parents, and subsequently nicknames; and I verily like the special noun class prefix.

For Azvolaj speakers, names are whole sentences that make use of the noun-incorporation capability of verbs (and adjectives, because adjectives function as verbs), and have the form as follows:

NOUN1-ADJ/INTRANSITIVE.VERB NOUN2-TRANSITIVE.VERB

The nouns are usually physical phenomena, such as weather, plants, animals, part of the body, and geographical features

A list of possible nouns
Spoiler:
fish, bird, dog, tree, seed, leaf, wind, river, root, bone, eye, tooth, fang, hand, foot, stone, heart, liver, sun, moon, stars, rain, cloud, smoke, fire, ash, mountain, ear, nose, head, feather, back, plain, elk, skin
The adjectives and intransitive verbs are usually tangible or perceptible qualities, like colours, sizes, small numbers, and verbs of motion.

A list of possible adjs/int.vbs
Spoiler:
young, old, dry, wet, run, swim, laugh, black, white, red, yellow, green, stand, hard, soft, big, small, good, shining, dark, strong, crooked, long, flat, tall, straight, heavy, light, quick, slow, jump, calm, two, cold, hot, smooth, rough
The transitive verbs are physical human verbs (apart from 'to know'), and causative verbs.

A list of possible tr.vbs
Spoiler:
eat, drink, bite, see, hear, know, kill, give, burn, carry, push, spit, break, hold, lift, stomp on, bring, grasp, steal, strengthen
Here are two example names:

Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada

voń-visuk ki-bnósiz-çada

river-red n1-fish-eat

"Red River Eats Fish"

And

Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga

gavl-nekzí ki-dzaní-zuga

teeth-crooked n1-mountain-see

"Crooked Teeth Sees Mountain"



How people acquire their names is rather complex. Names are created by mixing the names of the parents, along with allowing the choosing of a given name for the child. Let's say we have a couple having children together: the mother is Red River Eats Fish (Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada), and the father is Crooked Teeth Sees Mountain (Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga). Their first male child will have the name Crooked X Sees Fish (X-nekzí ki-Bnōsizzuga), where 'X' is a name the parents choose. The first female child will be called Red X Eats Mountain (X-visuk kiDzaníçada), where 'X' is a name the parents choose. The 2nd male child will have the name Crooked X Eats Mountain, and the 2nd female child Red X Sees Fish.

This pattern becomes more interesting once we reach the 4th child of a given sex. The 4th male child will have the name X Teeth Sees Fish; and the 4th female X River Eats Mountain. Here's the chart with the father's name of the form F1-F2 F3-F4, and the mother's name M1-M2 M3-M4.

Male Children
Spoiler:
1. X-F2 M3-F4
2. X-F2 F3-M4
3. X-M2 F3-F4
4. F1-X M3-F4
5. F1-X F3-M4
6. M1-X F3-F4
7. F1-M2 X-F4
8. F1-F2 X-M4
9. M1-F2 X-F4
10. F1-M2 F3-X
11. F1-F2 M3-X
12. M1-F2 F3-X

The pattern for female children is the same, but with the 'M's and 'F's reversed.
Azvolaj speakers, when filling out a government document and need to state their 'full name', simply write their name followed by the name of their mother, then the name of their father. So if Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada and Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga have a male child called Ǵevevnekzí kiBnósizzuga, then when Ǵevevnekzí needs to fill out his driver's license application at the DMV, the name on the form will be Ǵevevnekzí kiBnósizzuga Vońvisuk kiBnósizçada Gavlnekzí kiDzanízuga. Maybe there's be an inbetween word meaning 'son of', but I've not invented that yet. What do you think?
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by holbuzvala » Fri 24 Nov 2017, 21:11

P.S. As names get pretty long, people usually make nicknames for people by taking the first syllable of each part of their first name.

E.g.

Vońvisuk -> Vońvi
Gavlnekzí -> Gavlne
Ǵevevidre -> Ǵevid (looks strangely similar to David. Maybe this is how foreigners' names are formed through backwards reconstruction...hmm...)
Jafaītzuku -> Jatzu
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Reyzadren » Sat 25 Nov 2017, 00:32

A name is initially given by the parent(s) in the family, but it can be kept as an official name, or discarded upon selecting a name for oneself while still keeping the given name amongst family usage.

Griuskant names usually don't mean anything, and are actually encouraged to have no meaning as to easily identify them as proper nouns/names in a sentence. It is only 1 name with 2 or more syllables, rarely 1 syllable. (No first name, last name)
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by Linguifex » Sat 25 Nov 2017, 03:02

Tim Ar given names tend to be nominalized sentences, e.g. É3enghuúühé é3en khuú ü hé "he rides the wind". These are usually followed by the patronymic/matronymic particle and then the name of the same-sex parent.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by lsd » Sat 25 Nov 2017, 18:26

Verbless, I have no difference between word and sentence, the difficulty is to define a single man...
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 26 Nov 2017, 02:57

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
How do names work in your conculture?
Answering only for Adpihi and Reptigan, because they're related cultures to each other, and because I don't have anything worked out for Arpien or any other concultures (can't even remember whether I have any others!).

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Are people given names at birth?
Yes.

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Do people inherit names of their parents?
Depends what you mean.
There are three line-names and two formal individual names. (There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)
All line-names are inherited from a parent.
Formal individual-names are inherited mostly from collateral "ancestors", but never from parents; nobody has the same individual name as a parent or a sibling.
(Formal first individual-names are inherited from great-great-grandparents and great-granduncles and great-grandaunts.)
(Formal second individual-names are inherited from great-grandparents and granduncles and grandaunts.)

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals?
Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Are names chosen by an elder/shaman?
Again, depends what you mean.
A baby boy's first nickname is chosen by his father's mother. That's the name he's called en famille except when he's called by his two-part formal individual name.
A baby girl's first nickname is chosen by her mother's father. That's the name she's called en famille except when she's called by her two-part formal individual name.
I'm choosing to interpret "elder" as including "grandparent".

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Do people of a shared tribe/clan share a name?
Line-names are inherited from a parent, so people related by certain lines of descent share a line-name.
The first line-name, the matriline or matriclan name, is always inherited from the individual's mother's matriclan.
The second line-name, the patriline or patriclan name, is always inherited from the individual's father's patriclan.
The third line-name, the "rope name" or "geun name" or "alterclan name", is inherited from the parent of the opposite sex;
a boy's "rope name" is his mother's "rope name", while a girl's "rope name" is her father's "rope name".

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
Do siblings share a name?
All the children of any one mother share her matriline-name with her and with each other.
All the children of any one father share his patriline-name with him and with each other.
All the sons of any one mother share her "rope name" with her and with each other.
All the daughters of any one father share his "rope name" with him and with each other.
So full-sisters share all three line-names; and full-brothers share all three line-names.
A full-brother and a full-sister share their matriline-name and their patri-line name, but not their rope-name.
Half-brothers who are sons of the same mother but different fathers share her matriline name and her "rope name"; but they might have different patriline names.
Half-sisters who are daughters of the same father but different mothers share his patriline name and his "rope name"; but they might have different matriline names.
Half-siblings who aren't both male, and share their mother but have different fathers, will share her matriline name, but may share no other line-name.
Half-siblings who aren't both female, and share their father but have different mothers, will share his patriline name, but may share no other line-name.
Siblings never share an individual name; however someone who knows their clan and its traditions (e.g. other members of the same clan) may be able to see a connection between their individual names.

holbuzvala wrote:
Fri 24 Nov 2017, 11:58
And secondly, what do names mean? Are they special grammatical forms of words? Are they deliberately meaningless lexemes? Are they portmanteaux of qualities parents desire in a child? (Like kind + generous = Kinderous)
"Maybe" and "for some" are the answers to all those questions.
There are only 1001 formal names. Some are one syllable, most are two, and maybe a few are three.
143 matriline names
143 patriline names
143 "rope" names
143 first-elements of male formal individual-names
143 first-elements of female formal individual-names
143 second-elements of male formal individual-names
143 second-elements of female formal individual-names
These are all very traditional.
The clan-names (line-names) reportedly mean, or once meant, something that was descriptive of the clan when it was named, and was a quality or possession they were proud of.
The individual names, likewise, reportedly mean, or once meant, something the parents had in mind concerning their child, which they either hoped for the child, or were proud had already happened for the child.

Each of a child's "godparents" (i.e. voluntary designated alternate parents, in case something happens), attends the child's naming-ceremony, and is permitted to give the child one nickname.
Spoiler:
This usually includes each of the child's grandparents, each adult sibling of either parent, and each adult sibling of the child (if any). It also often includes good friends of either parent; including some noticeably older or younger than the parent(s).
These nicknames can be highly varied. It is considered desirable that each godparent not have two different godchildren with the same nickname. So the nicknames might be more than one word long; or might be more than three syllables long.
A first son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's father's father's father;
a second son's first individual name, is inherited from his mother's father's father's father;
a third son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's mother's father's father;
Spoiler:
a fourth son's first individual name, is inherited from his mother's mother's father's father;
a fifth son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's father's mother's father;
a sixth son's first individual name, is inherited from his mother's father's mother's father;
a seventh son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's mother's mother's father;
an eighth son's first individual name, is inherited from his mother's mother's mother's father.

A ninth son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's father's father's oldest brother;
A tenth son's first individual name, is inherited from his mother's father's father's oldest brother;
An eleventh son's first individual name, is inherited from his father's mother's father's oldest brother;
and so on, through the oldest brothers of all the great-grandparents, alternating between the father's side and the mother's side.

If there is a seventeenth son, he's named (in his first individual name) after his father's father's father's second-oldest brother;
and so on through the second-oldest brothers of all the great-grandparents, alternating between the father's side and the mother's side.

If this system would cause a name to be duplicated -- that is, yields the same first individual name as the boy's father or one of his older brothers -- that name is skipped and the next in the sequence is taken.
A first daughter's first individual name, is inherited from her mother's mother's mother's mother;
a second daughter's first individual name, is inherited from her father's mother's mother's mother;
a third daughter's first individual name, is inherited from her mother's father's mother's mother;
Spoiler:
and so on, through all the great-great-grandmothers, alternating between the mother's side and the father's side.

If there is a ninth or subsequent daughter, her first individual name is inherited from the oldest sister of one of her great-grandparents;
first her mother's mother's mother's, then her father's mother's mother's, then her mother's father's mother's, then her father's father's mother's, then her various great-grandfather's oldest sisters,
similar to what happens with son's first individual names.

And if there is a seventeenth or later daughter, her first individual name is inherited from one of her great-grandparents' 2nd-oldest sister.
Same as for sons, except the sexes are swapped (son <--> daughter, father <--> mother, brother <--> sister).
This system makes a line of fathers-and-first-sons rotate among a cycle of four first individual names.
If Alfred's first son is Bob, and Bob's first son is Chuck, and Chuck's first son is Dan, then Dan's first son will be Alfred again; and this Alfred's first son will be Bob again; and so on.
Likewise a line of mothers-and-first-daughters will rotate among a cycle of four first individual names.

Second individual names will also be inherited via a similar system with some key differences.
First, the names will come from the second individual names of the grandparents' parents and siblings, rather than the great-grandparent's parents and siblings.
(This will make it more generations before a combination of first-individual-name and second-individual-name must repeat.)
Second:
The first son's second individual name will be his mother's mother's father's second individual name (instead of his father's father's father's).
The second son's second individual name will be his father's mother's father's 2nd individual name;
the third son's second individual name will be his mother's father's father's 2nd individual name;
the fourth son's second individual name will be his father's father's father's 2nd individual name.
So a line of fathers-and-fourth-sons will rotate between a cycle of three 2nd individual names.
Spoiler:
The fifth through eighth sons will be named for their grandparents' oldest brothers; the mother's mother's oldest brother, the father's mother's, the mother's father's, and the father's father's.
The ninth through twelfth sons' 2nd individual names will come from their grandparents' 2nd-oldest brothers.
As with 1st individual names, if the designated collateral ancestor does not exist, or the name would result in a duplication, that position is skipped and the name chosen comes from the next collateral ancestor in the sequence.
The first daughter's second individual name will be her father's father's mother's second individual name (instead of her mother's mother's mother's);
the second daughter's second individual name will be her mother's father's mother's 2nd individual name;
the third daughter's second individual name will be her father's mother's mother's 2nd individual name;
the fourth daughter's second individual name will be her mother's mother's mother's 2nd individual name.
So a line of mothers-and-fourth-daughters will rotate between a cycle of three 2nd individual names.
If there are fifth-and-later daughters, their 2nd individual names will come from their grandparents' oldest sisters, then their grandparent's 2nd-oldest sisters, etc.,
similar to what happens for sons, except the sexes will be swapped.
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by elemtilas » Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:23

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 02:57
How do names work in your conculture? Answering only for Adpihi and Reptigan, because they're related cultures to each other, and because I don't have anything worked out for Arpien or any other concultures.
A very thorough description, indeed!
eldin raigmore wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 02:57
(There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)

Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
So, I'm interested in these less formal names. What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"? I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu? Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?
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Re: Naming Practices

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:58

elemtilas wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:23
eldin raigmore wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 02:57
(There are also "nicknames", a bit more formal than *our* "nicknames", but a bit more free-form then *their* "formal names".)

Do people acquire new names from going through adulthood/marriage rituals? Yes, and/or other events; some by their own choice. These are all grouped under the term "nicknames"; which may not carry exactly the same connotation that "nickname" does in our culture.
So, I'm interested in these less formal names.
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:23
What is implied by "may not carry the same connotation"?
I mean an Adpihi or Reptigan "nickname" may not be teasing or irreverent or disrespectful or joshing or vulgar etc., like many of ours are even between friends.
The person's first nickname -- that given by whichever grandparent didn't contribute a line-name -- probably reflects some emotion felt by that grandparent on hearing the news of the birth or on first seeing the grandchild. For instance it might be "God's answer to my prayer", or "Another damn mouth to feed", or something like that. Although it's probably going to be complimentary and affectionate; or it might be tragic, if the mother died in childbirth or the father died before the child was born or something. It could also be descriptive, containing words like "loud" or "red" or "pees like a fountain" or something.

Later "nicknames" will be similar to, say, passing degrees in freemasonry, or a college degree or professional degree or graduate-school degree. Or, something like a job-title (with a little bit of job-description).

And of course there will be nicknames based on deeds, or on characteristics not obvious on birth; like "strong" or "fast" or "won the game for us" or "really big" or "tiny".

elemtilas wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:23
I guess a question that seeks answer to what kind of nickname *here* are you talking about? What cultural milieu?
I'm thinking of team sports, of same-sex youth-groups (say a neighborhood gang or a streetball team), or what you see in movies and TV shows, especially film noir gangster movies.
Spoiler:
Though Jesus called one of his disciples "Rocky". And he had two disciples both named Jim; a wrestler (a big muscular guy)[citation needed] and a camel-jockey[citation needed] (jockeys are usually small and try to stay lightweight). He called the jockey "Big Jim" (James the Greater) and called the wrestler "Little Jim" (James the Less). (Big Jim and John were brothers, sons of Zebedee, IIANM; Little Jim and Matt were brothers, sons of Alphaeus IIANM.)
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 26 Nov 2017, 03:23
Why a/o why not might these compare crossworldwise? In other words, what dó Adpihians and Reptiganders mean by "nickname"?
The nickname a person receives at marriage may be the pet-name by which their new spouse calls them, or something similar. It's probably chosen with the consent of the person getting nicknamed.
If a person gets nicknamed as part of graduating from some course, or being admitted to some society (in both cases I'm thinking of the Order of the Arrow), in Adpihi the name chosen is with the consent of the person nicknamed. It's also chosen so that those close to him/her in the society or course feel they can reasonably be sure who is being referred to if that name is used in that person's absence.
When a person goes through the vision-quest or bat-mitzvah or whatever ceremony marks them as no longer a child but now an adult, s/he chooses his/her own nickname, after careful and long thought, and with the advice of his/her teachers or older students.

Of course, some of the nicknames are bestowed upon them by associates, just so they can be spoken about to newer associates who will immediately know to whom reference is being made. So names like "Cowlick" or "Freckles" or "Four-eyes" or "Skinny" will occur in Adpihi and Reptigan. They're just less common *there* than *here*; *here* most "nicknames" are bestowed without consulting the person nicknamed, *there* most are conferred with the nicknamed one's active consent.


Edit: BTW: I really like several of the posts on this thread! Holbuzvala's and Gestaltist's and Linguifex's come to mind in particular, for instance. There are also at least two other systems that are very interesting!
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