Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Micamo » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 17:21

My own religious views absolutely influence not only the content of the invented religions in my constructed worlds, but also my approach to crafting such religions.

Religion, such as it is, is a tool of power, and thus ultimately a tool of oppression. Its function is to provide a structure in which that structural oppression takes place. It's not the only feature of a society that serves this function, though it is an important one.

It is critical, I think, to distinguish between mere cultural trappings and the religion itself. You can have the culture associated with a religion without the oppressive structures that go with it. A hijab, by itself, is not oppressive and thus not something I would call "religion," for my worldbuilding purposes. The laws which make it a punishable offense to choose not to wear one (or in certain western countries, to choose to wear one), however, are.

Likewise, a building with stained glass windows where people can show up once a week to listen to some book readings is not oppressive. The laws that make these organizations tax-exempt, are. The culture that makes it permissible to murder your own children because of something the book reading said, is. That culture which gives this organization's leaders carte-blanche to get away with whatever they damn well please within their own communities, are.

So when I design a new religion these are the central questions I ask:

1. To whom does this religion grant power?

2. What kind of power does it give them?

3. Who is subjected to this power?

4. The least important question, what is the excuse given for why this power exists? What rituals are made up in order to exercise this power?

Note that under this definition that I'm using a "religion" need not necessarily be theistic or spiritual in nature: New Atheism is absolutely a religion, and its function is for bigoted white guys to have an excuse to attack jewish people and muslims while feeling smugly superior.


It should go without saying that IMHO, Religion (by the definition I've used here) is an inherently evil thing. I create them for my fiction because they work well for creating injustice to serve as a source of conflict. And I'm distrustful of anyone who doesn't reject it. Yes, especially you, Dawkins.

(Have I mentioned I hate New Atheists?)
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 19:01

Micamo wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 17:21
My own religious views absolutely influence not only the content of the invented religions in my constructed worlds, but also my approach to crafting such religions.
Hi Micamo! I am glad to see you here!

I think you have a much darker perspective than I do regarding religion, but in reading your post I find little we'd actually disagree on. Certainly I concur on all matters regarding the crafting of invented religions. I think our difference of perspective comes from how we view religion. I don't see religion, in its pure form, as a tool of power or oppression. It is a source of true orientation and liberation, even in the midst of oppression. Where I'd agree with you is that the power-mad and the oppressors often seize control, because religion can be such a terribly effective tool for evil.
Note that under this definition that I'm using a "religion" need not necessarily be theistic or spiritual in nature: New Atheism is absolutely a religion, and its function is for bigoted white guys to have an excuse to attack jewish people and muslims while feeling smugly superior.
We totally agree here, thought there are plenty of women and guys who aren't "white" in that particular church! And they don't reserve their attacks just for Jews or Muslims either.
It should go without saying that IMHO, Religion (by the definition I've used here) is an inherently evil thing. I create them for my fiction because they work well for creating injustice to serve as a source of conflict. And I'm distrustful of anyone who doesn't reject it. Yes, especially you, Dawkins.

(Have I mentioned I hate New Atheists?)
Heh. [;)]

Do you ever consider religion as an inherently good thing? (If not in your own experience, then at least in the experiences of folks in your world?)
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Micamo » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 19:28

IMO the only good things that come from religion (standard definition) is actually the result of community: The shared identity, and the support networks that such community creates, and you can have these things without spirituality and without systemic oppression and injustice that comes from the power structures involved. I'm not going to deny that for some communities religion (standard definition) is most or all of what they have binding them together, and I also won't claim that every person who considers themselves religious is evil. There are some religious leftist folks I think are okay.

So can religion be a positive experience for a person? I'll say yes, but with the caveat that this is only possible if that person lives in a society that's deeply, deeply flawed, and that their experience with religion is positive in spite of it, not because of it.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 05 Aug 2018, 22:18

Monotheism contributed to the d evelopment of methodical science, and to carefully accurate historiography among other things, in degrees that began to lessen towards the end of the 18th century, but were still significant towards the end of the 19th.

I don’t think any religion has a place in the world in the 21st century or the future. Their good effects have IMNSHO diminished so much, but their ill effects have persistently remained bad enough, that on balance everyone on the globe would be better off if no-one — neither themselves nor anyone else — believed nor practiced any religion from around 2001 on.

I am hesitant to claim the worthlessness of religion started too early in the XXth century, however; and I don’t think it was globally and uniformly worthless for most of the XIXth.

I could easily be wrong, and if someone were to present evidence, I think I’d readily allow that they might be right.

———

However in my main conworld’s main conculture, I have made their conreligion(s) mostly a good thing, and at worst benignly neutral. It becomes a source of conflict when they meet the secularist, materialist, atheist humans from Earth and the rest of the human diaspora. Even then the conflict is mostly one of misunderstandings rather than of hostility. People will be too ready, or not ready enough, to rescue other people on the other side of the gulf-of-faith; not out of disrespect, but merely out of not realising what is expected.

I can’t think of a way to write about them that won’t make it obvious I myself don’t believe.
But I don’t think it will actually be hostile to religion.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 00:09

Micamo wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 19:28
IMO the only good things that come from religion (standard definition) is actually the result of community: The shared identity, and the support networks that such community creates, and you can have these things without spirituality and without systemic oppression and injustice that comes from the power structures involved. I'm not going to deny that for some communities religion (standard definition) is most or all of what they have binding them together, and I also won't claim that every person who considers themselves religious is evil. There are some religious leftist folks I think are okay.

So can religion be a positive experience for a person? I'll say yes, but with the caveat that this is only possible if that person lives in a society that's deeply, deeply flawed, and that their experience with religion is positive in spite of it, not because of it.
Community is certainly a good start! But gangs and mob families and the Nazi Party are also "communities". Not all religions are equal. When the right combination of good religion and community coincide we find the true basis of social justice, we find children raised within loving families and communities and with purpose beyond the merely materialistic, we find a peaceful & respectful society and people who are truly content rather than struggling to find mere happiness.

Sadly, the combination of political ideologies ("leftism" e.g.) is never a good thing. I have learned that persecution and oppression (inter alia) arise primarily from the Left. But that doesn't mean the Right is any better! They too like to seize the helm and turn religion into a weapon. Too often, Left and Right alike destroy religion as an institution for the good of all.

The truth is that I will be happy with anyone, "left" or "right" or "centre" who has a good understanding and a good practice of morality and ethics as the foundation of human community.

As for invented religions and cultures, you make excellent points Micamo! For example, in the long history of the Eastlands, one of the worst eras (especially for the Daine) was a long period known as the Episcopate. This was a time during the old Kingdom of Hoopelle where religious bad guys had overthrown the civil imperium and set their own cronies in place. They certainly did a lot of things that had the appearance of "good". They proposed a more egalitarian social structure; they opened new schools; they relaxed what they considered to be "repressive" moral codes. But in retrospect, they did these things always at the expense of other people. Their ideas of egalitarianism, for example, repressed and ostracised those who did not conform, and the number of bodies swinging from The Brickyard (the five mile long gallows east of the Old City) increased, especially with Daine; their schools, far from being shrines of learning, became cults of statism. Enough people prospered and enough people received benefit that the Church-State were able to crush the rebellions of those who disagreed. Although the Episcopate and its false religion was eventually thrown down (during the great 1672 War), their effects of the cultures of Men (and Daine) have been long lasting and enduring. And, I think, not for the better.

But there is an old saw: they sowed, they reaped.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 02:13

eldin raigmore wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 22:18
Monotheism contributed to the d evelopment of methodical science, and to carefully accurate historiography among other things, in degrees that began to lessen towards the end of the 18th century, but were still significant towards the end of the 19th.
And continues the input of strong ethics into an increasingly wayward, dare I say "orcish" scientism.
I don’t think any religion has a place in the world in the 21st century or the future. Their good effects have IMNSHO diminished so much, but their ill effects have persistently remained bad enough, that on balance everyone on the globe would be better off if no-one — neither themselves nor anyone else — believed nor practiced any religion from around 2001 on.

I am hesitant to claim the worthlessness of religion started too early in the XXth century, however; and I don’t think it was globally and uniformly worthless for most of the XIXth.

I could easily be wrong, and if someone were to present evidence, I think I’d readily allow that they might be right.
While, of course, I couldn't disagree with you more with respect to (at least the right) religion(s); what I find interesting about our positions is that if you replaced "religion" with "politics" you'd pretty much sum up my perspective on society in general!
However in my main conworld’s main conculture, I have made their conreligion(s) mostly a good thing, and at worst benignly neutral. It becomes a source of conflict when they meet the secularist, materialist, atheist humans from Earth and the rest of the human diaspora. Even then the conflict is mostly one of misunderstandings rather than of hostility. People will be ready, or not ready enough, to rescue other people on the other side of the gulf-of-faith; not out of disrespect, but merely out of not realising what is expected.

I can’t think of a way to write about them that won’t make it obvious I myself don’t believe.
But I don’t think it will actually be hostile to religion.
Well, one thing to try, and of course if may not work for you, is to take the same, ah, vituperative energy (!) and set it orthogonalwise. In other words, your perspective is that religion is worthless (pace) and has no place in modern society. Try to turn that perspective around and, perhaps as an intellectual exercise, write an essay contrary to your usual opinion. I've found the technique useful when exploring various religious teachings I was unsure about. Writing the opposite of what you think, in this case, will certainly can open you up to truth, and while it's not my purpose to push in that direction, it will also help you see this thing from another perspective. Another useful technique would be to write in persona Adiphii/-ae.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by LinguoFranco » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 05:15

I think my own religion really affects my conworlds that much. I'm an Evangelical, but alot of my constructed religions draw from Asian religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc, as well as from some shamanic/animist traditions, especially those found among the indigenous Americans. I really like Confucianism's code of ethics, though it's debatable as one can argue that it is actually a philosophy rather than a religion, but it's ethical code is often used as the basis for the constructed religion's moral guidelines.

One that I am currently working on is monotheistic, but is loosely inspired by Aztec mythology. I also really like Islamic architecture and music, and I have been wanting to write a story with genies.

I see religion as just like any other idea or institution; it's capable of both good and evil, and there are bad apples in it, but there are also those who do practice what they preach and genuinely want to help others and make society better.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 12:40

LinguoFranco wrote:
Mon 06 Aug 2018, 05:15
I think my own religion really affects my conworlds that much. I'm an Evangelical, but alot of my constructed religions draw from Asian religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc, as well as from some shamanic/animist traditions, especially those found among the indigenous Americans. I really like Confucianism's code of ethics, though it's debatable as one can argue that it is actually a philosophy rather than a religion, but it's ethical code is often used as the basis for the constructed religion's moral guidelines.
There is certainly a lot of good material in there! Agreed about Confucianism: I could be wrong but I think it reads more like a "whole system philosophy" than an actual religion. Though comes perilously close!
One that I am currently working on is monotheistic, but is loosely inspired by Aztec mythology. I also really like Islamic architecture and music, and I have been wanting to write a story with genies.
Now that Aztec based system I'd like to see! And yes about Levantine architecture & music. Lots of beauty from that quarter. Interesting mysticism, too.
I see religion as just like any other idea or institution; it's capable of both good and evil, and there are bad apples in it, but there are also those who do practice what they preach and genuinely want to help others and make society better.
Sensible!
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 20:34

Are you familiar with the failed Nuremberg trials defense “I was only following orders “?

I am flabbergasted by peoples who believe theistic religion is the foundation of ethics, rather than its antithesis.
IRL theists sometimes ask me how I can be ethical without God?

I have to ask how they can believe in any absolute ethics while simultaneously ( and in my view contradictorally) believing there’s a (or some) god(s) whose commands they must obey?

—————

I’d rather construct the kind of Creator and/or the kind of religion(s) in Whom/which I could believe,
Or belief in Whom/which, by many other people, wouldn’t threaten me.

———

Most theists are content to leave me be.
But so many of those who feel obligated to convert me, assume I’m an atheist out of ignorance.
They have no idea that I’m a missionaries’ kid and a grandkid of a famous preacher with 34 published books of sermons.
Or that I took Scripture lessons daily in elementary school, and religion courses 2 or 3 times a week in college.
Or that I have read the Bible cover to cover thrice.

The truth is I know Christianity and the Bible better than the vast majority of Christian laymen.
The clergy, so far, have been content to leave me be.

———

For similar reasons, I don’t think arguing the other side will be worthwhile, nor have much chance of changing my mind.

I argued the other side for a 30 to 45 years, and changed my mind any way, due to events between 1973 and 2013.

It could probably, I guess, he more effective to provide the other side with arguments I can tolerate better than the ones they actually usually present.

And that’s what I’m going to do with Adpihi’s religion.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Mon 06 Aug 2018, 21:39

eldin raigmore wrote:
Mon 06 Aug 2018, 20:34
Are you familiar with the failed Nuremberg trials defense “I was only following orders “?
I am. It fails because they each made their choice. Everyone (barring little children who really don't know better, etc), when confronted by an ethical or a moral dilemma, such as e.g. "just be a good chap and flip that GAS ON switch" has the power to make a choice for or against what is right.

Whether the defense works or not is neither here nor there: if you follow an immoral or ethical order, well, you fail that test! So much the worse if it leads to someone else's demise or injury.
I am flabbergasted by peoples who believe theistic religion is the foundation of ethics, rather than its antithesis.
IRL theists sometimes ask me how I can be ethical without God?
I of course won't speak for you! I have no issue with ethical Atheism. After all, I turn on the tap and have no clear idea where the water comes from!
I have to ask how they can believe in any absolute ethics while simultaneously ( and in my view contradictorally) believing there’s a (or some) god(s) whose commands they must obey?
The happiness there is that, again, in the (right) religion, these two will coincide. There really is only one commandment, after all, and that is to love. This makes moral and ethical systems so much easier to understand, because everything literally is black and white. You either do what is truly loving to other people or you do what is truly harmful. There really is no "grey morality" or "situational ethics".

In my line of work, ethics, morality and so forth are the backbone of our relationship within the community. If I do something unethical (whether grossly unethical or slightly unethical / lazy) then some level of harm or injury touches a human being.
I’d rather construct the kind of Creator and/or the kind of religion(s) in Whom/which I could believe,
Or belief in Whom/which, by many other people, wouldn’t threaten me.
Nothing wrong with that! I certainly wouldn't want to get mixed up with a religion that threatens people or a god that neither the faithful spirit nor the rational mind can believe in!
Most theists are content to leave me be.
But so many of those who feel obligated to convert me, assume I’m an atheist out of ignorance.
In my experience, most Atheists (who did not actually grow up Atheist) arrive at the position not through ignorance but rather through a long struggle with and experience of the abuses of people around them. Family that fail them, friends that fail them, social structures that fail them. They ask (and believe me, many Theists do as well!) if there is a God and if God is loving, how can there be priests that fuck little boys or parents that beat their children or abandon them or friends that torment and bully kids in school or a society that is falling apart at the seams? How can there be so much evil! How can there be any evil at all?

Am I close? I of course don't know the nature or origin of your position; and it's not my quest to convert anyone. Atheist or no, I'm just happy you are who you are: someone I respect and esteem highly!
They have no idea that I’m a missionaries’ kid and a grandkid of a famous preacher with 34 published books of sermons.
Or that I took Scripture lessons daily in elementary school, and religion courses 2 or 3 times a week in college.
Or that I have read the Bible cover to cover thrice.

The truth is I know Christianity and the Bible better than the vast majority of Christian laymen.
The clergy, so far, have been content to leave me be.
It's a common journey: to be fetched up in a (perhaps uber-) religious family only to turn away from it.
For similar reasons, I don’t think arguing the other side will be worthwhile, nor have much chance of changing my mind.

I argued the other side for a 30 to 45 years, and changed my mind any way, due to events between 1973 and 2013.

It could probably, I guess, he more effective to provide the other side with arguments I can tolerate better than the ones they actually usually present.

And that’s what I’m going to do with Adpihi’s religion.
Well, whatever works best for you, I can't suggest anything better!

I wonder: what happened between 1973 and 2013??
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Shemtov » Tue 07 Aug 2018, 04:18

LinguoFranco wrote:
Mon 06 Aug 2018, 05:15
I think my own religion really affects my conworlds that much. I'm an Evangelical, but alot of my constructed religions draw from Asian religions such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Shintoism, etc, as well as from some shamanic/animist traditions, especially those found among the indigenous Americans. I really like Confucianism's code of ethics, though it's debatable as one can argue that it is actually a philosophy rather than a religion, but it's ethical code is often used as the basis for the constructed religion's moral guidelines.
I'm an Orthodox Jew, and most of my Conreligions come from the same sources. I attributed the heavy Dharmic influence to a Jewish tradition that the Upanishads (not specifically, but that is the Hindu scripture that makes the most sense based on the description of the "Indian Books") were written by the descendants of Sons of Keturah sent "Eastward" by Abraham in Gen. 25:6, who already had twisted sense of Monotheism, melding their ideas with indigenous polytheism. A lot of other non-shamanistic conreligions in my conworld come from Rabbinic descriptions of Canaanite Religion, and Zoroastrianism and Christianity, as they are the Non-Jewish, Non-Dharmic religions I am most familiar with (Their are portions of the Talmud that aren't understandable without a basic knowledge of Zoroastrianism, as it was written in what's now Iraq, when the Persians controlled the region). However, my main Conculture is Monotheistic, but uncentralized, with theologies spanning the differences between Various schools of Judaism, Islam and Nontrinitarian Christianity.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 11 Aug 2018, 21:50

elemtilas wrote:
Fri 27 Jul 2018, 17:42
Khemehekis wrote:
Fri 27 Jul 2018, 04:17
elemtilas wrote:
Sun 22 Jul 2018, 14:53
Natural philosophy in The World is much more like science was here in the primary world before the secularists took control.
So like Aristotle's idea of science?
In part, yes. Though as much like Mendel and Mercalli and Lemaitre.
Or Lamarck, perhaps?

The Christian concept of original sin is very Lamarckian. The account of the Garden of Eden says that Adam and Eve were made sin-free. Then they both ate of the forbidden fruit and became sinful, and as a result all of their descendants should be considered sinners. Adam's sin was an acquired trait, and yet just as Lamarck believed that cutting tails off two mouse parents will make all their descendants tailless, Christians believe that the sin Adam acquired entered the genetic code of all of his descendants, except Jesus Christ (who inherited perfection from his divine parent) and John the Baptist (not quite sure on how he avoided original sin).
Ah! I love that: Tederian Onion! Kind of like Occham's Razon, only much more delicious!
Occham's Razon? Is that what they call Occam's Razor in the world?
In Gea, natural philosophers would find the Onion on the one hand entirely intuitive and suitable to the task, but on the other, entirely incompatible with reality. The 90~9~0.9 metaphor is all well and good they say, but, delving deeper, the ninth simplest explanation accounts for the final 99% and, against all odds and sensibility is probably righter that the other explanations put together.

That's science in a nutshell: 90+9+0.9+...+99=100. [>_<] [O.O]
My mother's quote in her AOL profile reads: "Nothing is ever simple".
In Gea, natural philosophers are aware of four basic forces: Love, Dwimmery (i.e. "deeper magics"), Affinity & Balance; and the againforces of each (not a force in opposition or lack, but an equal force understood from a different perspective, like darkness so deep you can begin to see your way around).
The prefix again- is like "against" or "gegen", right? Similar to the word "aginner"?
Affinity is a polar force of attraction (gravity, e.g.) and repulsion (magnets): yin/yang or hanan/hurin.
Not familiar with the words "hanan" and "hurin". Are these from a language of the World?
For me, the 99% answer is that fossils are just a manifestation of the wonder of Creation, tiny jewels & treasures that mutely reveal the nature of God's work from before there ever was an Earth or a universe for it to be in. All of these unexplained things are but calling cards, saying "use the brains I gave you and come find me!" It's all part of the great mystery of material existence and the great plan underlying it.
Ooh, fancy, I like it1 Stuff God like wanting us to find his ammonite fossils so we can have ammonite jewelry?
In The World, natural philosophers have chosen not the self-defeating road of scientism, which can never see more than it can see and never explain more than it can explain, but the road of I guess what you might call a theological science. When every aspect of existence points to its own fundamental nature as the work of the Creator, the 99% approach is to take the blinders off and look at the whole picture.
A very Christian (and catholic, with a lower-case c) view! It would be nice to get an idea of more conworlders' perceptions of science as they come out in the way they explain their conworlds.

When reading about the concept of "turtles all the way down", I've learned that Terry Pratchett's novels take place in a world atop the shell of a giant turtle. Has anyone here created a joke/satirical cosmology like that? (I've probably read about one here in the past, but nothing comes to mind off the top of my head . . .)
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 11 Aug 2018, 21:54

elemtilas wrote:
Mon 30 Jul 2018, 22:56
k1234567890y wrote:
Sun 29 Jul 2018, 15:46
I am now thinking to have a diversity of religions in my conworlds...including Abrahamic monotheistic ones(sorry if this offends some people here)
I'm honestly not sure why you'd apologise or think having a diversity of religions in an invented world be the cause of offense!
I believe she means having Abrahamic religions, of all faiths, in her conworlds might cause offense.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 11 Aug 2018, 21:56

Shemtov wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 07:13
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Sun 29 Jul 2018, 17:48

It's not as if religious beliefs never adapt either; in the Middle Ages, the Church position was that the sun revolved around the earth and to say otherwise was heresy that contradicted the Bible. No one seems to claim that anymore. Sometimes things undergo a bit of "reanalysis".
Exactly. I'm using this to introduce a religious influence on the World of Fuhe. First off. Judaism never had an issue with Heliocentrism based on Joshua. This is based on the idea that "the Bible talks in the language of men" and is not a science book. Therefore "sun stops in the sky"= "it appeared to, and G-d didn't want Joshua to write down the Heliocentric model because that's not the point of his book".
So this is why Leviticus classifies the bat as a bird/tzipporah?
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » Sat 11 Aug 2018, 22:05

Micamo wrote:
Sun 05 Aug 2018, 17:21
My own religious views absolutely influence not only the content of the invented religions in my constructed worlds, but also my approach to crafting such religions.

Religion, such as it is, is a tool of power, and thus ultimately a tool of oppression. Its function is to provide a structure in which that structural oppression takes place. It's not the only feature of a society that serves this function, though it is an important one.

It is critical, I think, to distinguish between mere cultural trappings and the religion itself. You can have the culture associated with a religion without the oppressive structures that go with it. A hijab, by itself, is not oppressive and thus not something I would call "religion," for my worldbuilding purposes. The laws which make it a punishable offense to choose not to wear one (or in certain western countries, to choose to wear one), however, are.

Likewise, a building with stained glass windows where people can show up once a week to listen to some book readings is not oppressive. The laws that make these organizations tax-exempt, are. The culture that makes it permissible to murder your own children because of something the book reading said, is. That culture which gives this organization's leaders carte-blanche to get away with whatever they damn well please within their own communities, are.

So when I design a new religion these are the central questions I ask:

1. To whom does this religion grant power?

2. What kind of power does it give them?

3. Who is subjected to this power?

4. The least important question, what is the excuse given for why this power exists? What rituals are made up in order to exercise this power?
Thanks for showing up, Micamo! So you view religion like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE

Have you ever considered making a world where the rebels are more fervent in their religious beliefs than the People in Power?
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Micamo » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 02:12

Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 11 Aug 2018, 22:05
Thanks for showing up, Micamo! So you view religion like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE
I don't understand the question. Is this a joke?
Have you ever considered making a world where the rebels are more fervent in their religious beliefs than the People in Power?
Well, yes. Religion is about power and that means it's also about transfers of power, both the mechanism by which that transfer takes place and the justification for that transfer. Of course a rebellion can use religion as part of its politic (such as the white supremacist genocidal authoritarian evangelicalism currently in the process of replacing white supremacist genocidal american democracy) against a more secular established power base.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 02:28

Micamo wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 02:12
Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 11 Aug 2018, 22:05
Thanks for showing up, Micamo! So you view religion like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvgZkm1xWPE
I don't understand the question. Is this a joke?
No, it's not a joke. That song is "Viva la Vida", by Coldplay. It's a song about how religion is useful to totalitarian and authoritarian leaders.
Have you ever considered making a world where the rebels are more fervent in their religious beliefs than the People in Power?
Well, yes. Religion is about power and that means it's also about transfers of power, both the mechanism by which that transfer takes place and the justification for that transfer. Of course a rebellion can use religion as part of its politic (such as the white supremacist genocidal authoritarian evangelicalism currently in the process of replacing white supremacist genocidal american democracy) against a more secular established power base.
I'm not fond of White supremacist genocidal American democracy myself. The only candidates in the 2016 election I liked were Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein. For several years now I have believed that democracy is a failure and should be replaced with a leftist oligarchy.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by Shemtov » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 04:34

Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 11 Aug 2018, 21:56
Shemtov wrote:
Tue 31 Jul 2018, 07:13
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
Sun 29 Jul 2018, 17:48

It's not as if religious beliefs never adapt either; in the Middle Ages, the Church position was that the sun revolved around the earth and to say otherwise was heresy that contradicted the Bible. No one seems to claim that anymore. Sometimes things undergo a bit of "reanalysis".
Exactly. I'm using this to introduce a religious influence on the World of Fuhe. First off. Judaism never had an issue with Heliocentrism based on Joshua. This is based on the idea that "the Bible talks in the language of men" and is not a science book. Therefore "sun stops in the sky"= "it appeared to, and G-d didn't want Joshua to write down the Heliocentric model because that's not the point of his book".
So this is why Leviticus classifies the bat as a bird/tzipporah?
Yes. My view is is that ʿowf (not tzipporah, the Torah uses ʿowf in Leviticus. tzipporah is used in the parallel passage in Deuteronomy, but the context indicates that it is the wider set- ʿowf, not tzipporah- is intended for the list portion) means "Flying Vertebrate" or "Animal whose wing structure parallels the structure of its legs"; Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan, who wasn a strong supporter of the Scientific taxonomy =/= Biblical taxonomy view, translates owf as "Flying animal"
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 05:01

Khemehekis wrote:
Sat 11 Aug 2018, 21:50
Or Lamarck, perhaps?

The Christian concept of original sin is very Lamarckian. The account of the Garden of Eden says that Adam and Eve were made sin-free. Then they both ate of the forbidden fruit and became sinful, and as a result all of their descendants should be considered sinners. Adam's sin was an acquired trait, and yet just as Lamarck believed that cutting tails off two mouse parents will make all their descendants tailless, Christians believe that the sin Adam acquired entered the genetic code of all of his descendants, except Jesus Christ (who inherited perfection from his divine parent) and John the Baptist (not quite sure on how he avoided original sin).
I'm not aware that he did!

In The World, they don't call it ancestral / original "sin": they view it as a complete fall from grace. The result (for Men) is the same: death and a pretty near irresistible proclivity towards the bad choices of sin.

And yes, Lammarck definitely has his say! It may not be the case that future lines of descent will lack tails: more likely, future lines of descent will quite possibly inherit the ability to lose and regrow what's been lost. On the other paw, some ancient tailless kindred, now no longer having any use for its tail, ended up bipedal and is now one of the younger races...
Ah! I love that: Tederian Onion! Kind of like Occham's Razon, only much more delicious!
Occham's Razon? Is that what they call Occam's Razor in the world?
I think tis but a misspelling!
In Gea, natural philosophers would find the Onion on the one hand entirely intuitive and suitable to the task, but on the other, entirely incompatible with reality. The 90~9~0.9 metaphor is all well and good they say, but, delving deeper, the ninth simplest explanation accounts for the final 99% and, against all odds and sensibility is probably righter that the other explanations put together.

That's science in a nutshell: 90+9+0.9+...+99=100. [>_<] [O.O]
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In Gea, natural philosophers are aware of four basic forces: Love, Dwimmery (i.e. "deeper magics"), Affinity & Balance; and the againforces of each (not a force in opposition or lack, but an equal force understood from a different perspective, like darkness so deep you can begin to see your way around).
The prefix again- is like "against" or "gegen", right? Similar to the word "aginner"?
The "against" definition is indeed the closest. Not quite an aginner; I take that as opposition for opposition sake. A pair of againforces is really a single force seen from two different, schroedingerian, perspectives.
Affinity is a polar force of attraction (gravity, e.g.) and repulsion (magnets): yin/yang or hanan/hurin.
Not familiar with the words "hanan" and "hurin". Are these from a language of the World?
Oo, you need to look into it! It is the Incan way of dividing society, into two great moities, basically "north" and "south". Kind of like yin & yang, it is a polar concept. At a basal level, this concept permeates many aspects of the natural world, from the way gravity (and againgravity) function to the essential dualism of the person (the female & male characteristics) and the higher cultural concepts of left & right or foreward & backward deixis. Not a religious concept in and of itself, it does find frequent expression in the quasi-religions of Philosophy and Sawyery.
For me, the 99% answer is that fossils are just a manifestation of the wonder of Creation, tiny jewels & treasures that mutely reveal the nature of God's work from before there ever was an Earth or a universe for it to be in. All of these unexplained things are but calling cards, saying "use the brains I gave you and come find me!" It's all part of the great mystery of material existence and the great plan underlying it.
Ooh, fancy, I like it! Stuff God like wanting us to find his ammonite fossils so we can have ammonite jewelry?
More like so we recognise in ourselves a kindred spirit, if you will, and will become drawn to him in closer relationship. It's a basic understanding of natural philosophy that, more than the science of the primary world, which can only see what it sees and can only explain what it can explain natural philosophy is designed to press on and seek beyond the five basic senses. Thus, God can be recognised by the use of Reason. So we (the intelligent Speaking Races) see in the ammonite particulars of its being that the Nonspeaking beings can't. A rat might sniff at an ammonite fossil in the hopes that it is something that can either be eaten or be fucked. A Man or a Daine or Teyor will recognise the pattern that we *here* call a fibonacci sequence. The rational mind notes this datum and collates it with all the other interesting data and begins to wonder what's (or who's) at the bottom of it all. Of course, *here*, scientismists just quit while they're ahead: their science is not able to answer questions beyond the what level. But beyond what science is mandated to do, natural philosophy *there*, being broader in scope, naturally leads off from the what to the who and the why. Science doesn't like who and why: they're very uncomfortable concepts because the who can't be seen except in his very works and within our own natures; and the why delves into the mind and thought and plan and work of Being well beyond our limited senses. Natural philosophers are much more comfortable with delving into who and why: the who is a given, known from reason and history. Why is a little more speculative and theological in nature, but can be guessed at from history and known from revelation.
In The World, natural philosophers have chosen not the self-defeating road of scientism, which can never see more than it can see and never explain more than it can explain, but the road of I guess what you might call a theological science. When every aspect of existence points to its own fundamental nature as the work of the Creator, the 99% approach is to take the blinders off and look at the whole picture.
A very Christian (and catholic, with a lower-case c) view! It would be nice to get an idea of more conworlders' perceptions of science as they come out in the way they explain their conworlds.
It would indeed!
When reading about the concept of "turtles all the way down", I've learned that Terry Pratchett's novels take place in a world atop the shell of a giant turtle. Has anyone here created a joke/satirical cosmology like that? (I've probably read about one here in the past, but nothing comes to mind off the top of my head . . .)
Well, there is the Nine-Sided Tube World. Somewhere around I've got some notes for a Roll-of-Tape World. There's also some notes here for a Niven-Ring-World with a bit of a twist.
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Re: Conworlders' religious influences on conworlds

Post by elemtilas » Sun 12 Aug 2018, 05:04

Khemehekis wrote:
Sun 12 Aug 2018, 02:28
I'm not fond of White supremacist genocidal American democracy myself. The only candidates in the 2016 election I liked were Bernie Sanders and Jill Stein. For several years now I have believed that democracy is a failure and should be replaced with a leftist oligarchy.
Ugh. Didn't like either of them.

I'll take Daine monarchy any day of the week!
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