(C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 14:31

eldin raigmore wrote:BTW whose conworld, and what conworld, is Connie of the feathered-wings-and-digigrade-pawprint from?
Both were found at DeviantArt.

Connie is the work of vladimirsangel
How about the polka-dotted female(?) who really looks like she's dressed in a luxurious sari-like gown(?) although I think she's actually not(?) wearing anything?
(Or does she have on a kind of sweater-vest-hoodie? If so I'm not sure the sleeves would work right with the part of the skin-flap above and along-and-just-below the arms.)
Does she have a name?
Meenos-colugo (apparently not the character's name) is the work of sugar-hi-unicorn

Yes, she is not wearing anything apart from the hooded vest thing.

And you are correct, o keen eyed seer of the winged-person's clothing fails! It's a gripe I have with very many artists (throughout the ages, really), who try to put clothing on winged folk. Eight and a half times out of ten, you'll see a winged person wearing a t-shirt or a coat or some article of clothing that really just can't work with wings! The one-and-a-half times out of ten, you'll find winged folk (like the Daine) who simply don't wear any clothing in that region or else who wear articles of clothing that work with their anatomy.

In this case, I think sugar-hi forgot about the skin flaps that will be rather unamenable to clothing of any sort. The hooded vest thing would work nicely if it simply draped over front and back without the appearance of having sleeves. Other kagwang folk I've seen pictures of don't wear clothing at all, or very minimally so.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 17:02

Keenir wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:1. Has anyone here ever heard of these Primates (Dermoptera)?
They can glide like flying squirrels, but they're primates!

4. Has anyone else even thought about putting a "colugoid"-descended conpeople in a conworld?
i have vague memories of being in elementary school or middle school, and our school library had a fiction book in which there was an extraterrestrial (on Earth, i assume; i don't recall the plot or anything), and his people had evolved from gliding squirrels (as most kids wouldn't have heard of colugos), and gone on to develop tech and spaceflight.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 19:44

Lambuzhao wrote: On the other other hand, of course, (primordial) dwarf humans do also exist, which are as small as, or even smaller than, Flores Hobbits, with adult human intelligence to boot. :roll:
You don't have to roll your eyes at me, thank you. I'm not an idiot.

However, extreme dwarfism is not really the same thing at all.

Some things to note:
- evolving a certain body shape and then having some individuals have dramatic abnormalities in some parts of the body to produce a different body shape is not the same process as naturally evolving that second body shape from the beginning. In particular, most people with dwarfism are of normal intelligence because their skulls are of normal size (a minority do have proportionally significantly smaller, or malformed, skulls, and they do indeed generally show reduced intellectual abilities). But there's a difference between evolving a human shape that includes a large skull (and then having a few humans have the rest of the body smaller than normla) and directly evolving a shape that includes a large skull but a small body.
Bodies tend, through evolution, to grow proportionately. Humans have already developed relatively huge skulls and brains - you're asking for something to develop an overwhelmingly incredibly (relatively speaking) huge skull and brain. And to do that at the same time as evolving for flight/gliding, which prioritises loss of weight!
And I do mean 'overwhelmingly'. The average human has a head that's about 7% of their total weight. People with the most extreme forms of non-microcephalic dwarfism may have a head around 30% of their total weight. To put it another way: chimpanzees have brains that are about 0.7% of their body weight, average humans have brains that are about 2.1% of their body weight, and you're talking about people with brains maybe 20% of their body weight. Now, brain-body ratios (with 'brain' being on a log scale) actually follow a pretty narrow band in all known animals - even humans aren't an immense deviation from that. Extreme dwarfism IS an immense deviation from that, like nothing that ordinary evolution has ever produced.

- and no, it's not as simple as saying "oh well dwarfism shows that these mutations are possible, so that's how this species evolved". Because extreme dwarfism is probably not a viable evolutionary strategy. You mention primordial dwarfism, for example - well, aside from the fact that many people with primordial dwarfism do have cognitive impairment, we also need to bear in mind that almost all people with primordial dwarfism die before they reach 30, even with modern medicine and care. Even less extreme dwarfisms are widely accompanied with serious medical conditions. Bones and spines may be deformed, nerves dangerously compressed. Small torsos can result in compression of vital body parts. And that sort of extreme mutation is often accompanied by seemingly unrelated afflictions, because when you roll the genetic dice like that all sorts of things can come up. You mention Verne Troyer, for instance - well, cartilege-hair hypoplasia like he has is also commonly associated with immunodeficiency problems and a predisposition to cancer (as well as seemingly random things like hyperextensible feet and very thin hairs). Gradually reducing size bit by bit is one thing, but the sort of extreme mutations you're talking about, that have an extreme effect on some body parts while not affecting others at all, are really unlikely to happen in just the way you want without also happening to bring about many completely undesirable traits. New species don't (at least in the overwhelming number of cases) form like that. They form from a series of evolving body forms, each of which is in its own right a positive adaptation for the environment.

- Let's remember here: even Verne Troyer cannot fly. He is still twice the length of a colugo (not counting their tails). And despite the fact that he's only twice the length of a colugo, he's a massive sixteen times the weight of a colugo. If he stretched out his hands, he'd have a wingspan maybe something like only 2/3rds that of a giant golden-crowned flying fox... but he has more than ten times the weight.
Let's put this another way: you see the gliding flaps on the colugo? Those flaps are just about big enough to carry two thirds of Verne Troyer's brain. (boy, this post has some strange sentences in it). Or again: if Verne Troyer's brain were the heaviest falcon in the world, it would by itself require a 1.5m wingspan. Assuming that the wings themselves had no weight! And that's not counting a skull to protect that brain, a digestive system, lungs, heart, some bone structures, some muscles to actually move those wings, and so on.



I just don't think an intelligent glider is plausible. If you really wanted a glider that could just about be scientific, I think your only option would probably to evolve it in the other direction: take a bird (with hyperminiaturised brain for flight), make it grow really big to have an increased brain size, and then somehow have it partially lose its flight while retaining its brain...
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 21:54

Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote: On the other other hand, of course, (primordial) dwarf humans do also exist, which are as small as, or even smaller than, Flores Hobbits, with adult human intelligence to boot. :roll:
You don't have to roll your eyes at me, thank you. I'm not an idiot.

I just don't think an intelligent glider is plausible. If you really wanted a glider that could just about be scientific, I think your only option would probably to evolve it in the other direction: take a bird (with hyperminiaturised brain for flight), make it grow really big to have an increased brain size, and then somehow have it partially lose its flight while retaining its brain...
Perhaps the most important thing of all to note:

We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 27 Aug 2017, 22:41

Perhaps the most important thing of all to note:

We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".

Well, if it ain't fantastic, it's prolly fabulous!
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 00:19

elemtilas wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote: On the other other hand, of course, (primordial) dwarf humans do also exist, which are as small as, or even smaller than, Flores Hobbits, with adult human intelligence to boot. :roll:
You don't have to roll your eyes at me, thank you. I'm not an idiot.

I just don't think an intelligent glider is plausible. If you really wanted a glider that could just about be scientific, I think your only option would probably to evolve it in the other direction: take a bird (with hyperminiaturised brain for flight), make it grow really big to have an increased brain size, and then somehow have it partially lose its flight while retaining its brain...
Perhaps the most important thing of all to note:

We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
Go away. The word "plausible" is not offensive, and was not in any case directed at you, so stop policing what everyone can say. You want a conworld where everyone is a ball of string and they make fabulous wonderful pretty unicorn pictures, nobody's stopping you. But not everyone has to do that. So you can give your string-advice or whatever, but you can't stop me giving my narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 00:38

Salmoneus wrote:
elemtilas wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote: On the other other hand, of course, (primordial) dwarf humans do also exist, which are as small as, or even smaller than, Flores Hobbits, with adult human intelligence to boot. :roll:
You don't have to roll your eyes at me, thank you. I'm not an idiot.

I just don't think an intelligent glider is plausible. If you really wanted a glider that could just about be scientific, I think your only option would probably to evolve it in the other direction: take a bird (with hyperminiaturised brain for flight), make it grow really big to have an increased brain size, and then somehow have it partially lose its flight while retaining its brain...
Perhaps the most important thing of all to note:

We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
Go away.
[<3] [<3] [<3] Love you too, Sal! [<3] [<3] [<3]
The word "plausible" is not offensive, and was not in any case directed at you, so stop policing what everyone can say.
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You want a conworld where everyone is a ball of string and they make fabulous wonderful pretty unicorn pictures, nobody's stopping you. But not everyone has to do that. So you can give your string-advice or whatever, but you can't stop me giving my narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
Ah, Sal, that's we love you so! You so easily misconstruedelfy whatever anyone says to you, and somehow manage to insult and alienate everyone you come in contact with.

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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 06:05

Salmoneus wrote:
elemtilas wrote: We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
Go away. The word "plausible" is not offensive, and was not in any case directed at you, so stop policing what everyone can say. You want a conworld where everyone is a ball of string and they make fabulous wonderful pretty unicorn pictures, nobody's stopping you. But not everyone has to do that. So you can give your string-advice or whatever, but you can't stop me giving my narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
was it a private conversation that you feel Elemtilas intruded/interupted upon?

also, nobody said the word was offensive.

as to the ball of string, I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 12:42

Salmoneus wrote:
elemtilas wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote: On the other other hand, of course, (primordial) dwarf humans do also exist, which are as small as, or even smaller than, Flores Hobbits, with adult human intelligence to boot. :roll:
You don't have to roll your eyes at me, thank you. I'm not an idiot.

I just don't think an intelligent glider is plausible. If you really wanted a glider that could just about be scientific, I think your only option would probably to evolve it in the other direction: take a bird (with hyperminiaturised brain for flight), make it grow really big to have an increased brain size, and then somehow have it partially lose its flight while retaining its brain...
Perhaps the most important thing of all to note:

We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
Go away.
Edit: Go away, oistros.
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Let's be real. Haven't we all played this role from time to time?
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The word "plausible" is not offensive, and was not in any case directed at you, so stop policing what everyone can say. You want a conworld where everyone is a ball of string and they make fabulous wonderful pretty unicorn pictures, nobody's stopping you. But not everyone has to do that. So you can give your string-advice or whatever, but you can't stop me giving my narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 13:10

Lambuzhao wrote:
Stop policing what everyone can say.!!!!!!.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Mon 28 Aug 2017, 20:20

elemtilas wrote:
                    • CUSTODIO
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » Tue 29 Aug 2017, 12:39

Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 30 Aug 2017, 10:43

They'd certainly find work at Federal Express!
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 30 Aug 2017, 10:53

Keenir wrote:I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?
It's Restaurant at the End of the Universe, innit? :wat:

I thought it was just Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?

Paint me the backwater galactic bumpkin!

FØØØØØØØØK! A new and expanded Universal edition, huh?
There goes the rest of my next paycheck. [:S]

Hello, amazon.ouroboros.univ.∞ ?
Can I reserve a copy of the Hitchhiker's Guide
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Wed 30 Aug 2017, 21:57

Keenir wrote:
Spoiler:
Salmoneus wrote:
elemtilas wrote: We're talking about fantastic beings here; not what any one thinks may be "plausible".
Go away. The word "plausible" is not offensive, and was not in any case directed at you, so stop policing what everyone can say. You want a conworld where everyone is a ball of string and they make fabulous wonderful pretty unicorn pictures, nobody's stopping you. But not everyone has to do that. So you can give your string-advice or whatever, but you can't stop me giving my narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
was it a private conversation that you feel Elemtilas intruded/interupted upon?
In the Webs, ain't no such thing as private convo. That's what PMs are for.

Anyway, if anything about this recent spat was a "private conversation" it would have involved the exchange between eldin and myself regarding kagwang/colugo based fantasy / fictional species of intelligent beings evolved from gliding primates, whether or not such folks might still glide, etc.
as to the ball of string, I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
I have, I am sure, mentioned here before the Theory of What It is All Held Together With which does indeed involve strings. Not necessarily a ball of string, though I am not certain the theoretical framework is quite well enough woven together to determine the exact nature of the strings involved. Some hold that it is in fact a G string (quite possibly made from box hair); others that it is really tiny bits of filament, sort of like quintessential dust webs.

That could be it. Or could be something else entirely!
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » Wed 30 Aug 2017, 22:00

Lambuzhao wrote:
Keenir wrote:I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?
It's Restaurant at the End of the Universe, innit? :wat:

I thought it was just Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
Clearly my good sir, Keenir has come back to us from some far distant corner of the polyverse where the named work is, in fact, a thing. [>_<] [O.O]
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 31 Aug 2017, 01:45

elemtilas wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:
Keenir wrote:I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?
It's Restaurant at the End of the Universe, innit? :wat:

I thought it was just Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
Clearly my good sir, Keenir has come back to us from some far distant corner of the polyverse where the named work is, in fact, a thing. [>_<] [O.O]
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » Thu 31 Aug 2017, 05:40

elemtilas wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:
Keenir wrote:I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?
It's Restaurant at the End of the Universe, innit? :wat:

I thought it was just Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
Clearly my good sir, Keenir has come back to us from some far distant corner of the polyverse where the named work is, in fact, a thing. [>_<] [O.O]
oh how I wish that that were indeed the case; lamentably all i can offer is faulty memory. (unless the faulty memory is also - unawares to my awareness - a glimpse at another corner of the polyverse)
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Thu 31 Aug 2017, 08:51

Salmoneus wrote:[...]narrative-coherence advice. If you don't like it, ignore it.
Not to continue to assault the passed equine mammal here, but does that phrasing not seem to imply that the only coherent narratives are those to exacting scientific specifications such as those being championed above? Mayhap, this type of thing is where some of the umbrage arose??

By any account, though, I can't argue with the last point in my above quote... usually.

Also, I do believe there is a way to present a view without quite so much condescension, just a thought.
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Re: (C&C) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 31 Aug 2017, 10:59

elemtilas wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:
Keenir wrote:I suspect you're confusing Elemtilas with the film The Hitchhikers Guide To The Universe.
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Universe?
It's Restaurant at the End of the Universe, innit? :wat:

I thought it was just Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy?
Clearly my good sir, Keenir has come back to us from some far distant corner of the polyverse where the named work is, in fact, a thing. [>_<] [O.O]

Hello, again, Keenir! Welcome back!!
[:D]
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