Po Polsku

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gestaltist
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by gestaltist » Wed 20 Jun 2018, 08:27

GrandPiano wrote:
Wed 20 Jun 2018, 03:23
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 17:58
Sorry for speaking English here, but I figure this is probably the best place to ask: does anybody know what the Polish surname Chaś means?
I don't speak Polish, but I did a quick search in a few dictionaries and nothing came up (except on Wiktionary, where it just says that it's a surname and doesn't give an etymology), so it at least doesn't seem to be a word in common use.
I'm Polish and I've never met anybody of that name. It doesn't sound like any word I know either.
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Shemtov » Wed 20 Jun 2018, 23:08

gestaltist wrote:
Wed 20 Jun 2018, 08:27
GrandPiano wrote:
Wed 20 Jun 2018, 03:23
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 17:58
Sorry for speaking English here, but I figure this is probably the best place to ask: does anybody know what the Polish surname Chaś means?
I don't speak Polish, but I did a quick search in a few dictionaries and nothing came up (except on Wiktionary, where it just says that it's a surname and doesn't give an etymology), so it at least doesn't seem to be a word in common use.
I'm Polish and I've never met anybody of that name. It doesn't sound like any word I know either.
Aszev found a site that traces it to a folk corruption of an archaic nominalzation of <skakać>, thus meaning "Jumper". There's also a last name on Wiktionary <Haś>, but as I know that in Late Middle/Early New Polish <H> was /ɦ/, and Yiddish always kept /h/, the Yiddish last name would have been transcribed with a hei, instead of a ches. I knew that was original form of my mothers maiden name for a while, but I didn't think to check Polish, as my Great-Great-Grandfather was from West-Central Ukraine, but as all Ukrainian Jews passed through, and stayed at least a few generations in Poland, a Polish Origin wasn't out of the question. Looking at various Israeli records, it was a name used by Polish Jews, and there were very few Ukranians with it- I did find a record of someone from the same village, though it's romanized as <Chasch>, but I assume that's a re-romanazation from the Hebrew or Cyrillic.
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 05 Jul 2018, 15:53

Could quite possibly come from the word чащ which is the GEN.PL of :ukr: чащa [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃt͡ʃa] 'thicket, brambles, underbrush'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%89

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D ... B0#Russian

An ancestor could have been someone whose job was to clear the brush/coppice/smeuse at the forest's edge to prepare land for farming.
Alternatively, they might have sold light wood and sticks for kindling - a Pimpmaker, Bavinmaker or Fagetter


Could also possibly be the GEN.PL of :ukr: ча́ша [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃa] 'cup, mug; bowl; chalice'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... 8Da%C5%A1a

Someone who made/repaired cups/mugs - a bowler, gobeletier, mugseller

BTW
GEN.PL as patronymic in Slavic languages is very common. Cf. the much more common endings -ov, -off, -ev.
E.g.
Gudonov, Ivanov, Pavlov, Petrov
Smirnoff, Popoff, Rachmaninoff, Petroff
Yakovlev, Brezhnev, Krushchev

the former two чащ and ча́ш are simply FEM.GEN.PL patronymics.


Hope this helps!
[:)]
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by gestaltist » Fri 06 Jul 2018, 08:39

Lambuzhao wrote:
Thu 05 Jul 2018, 15:53
Could quite possibly come from the word чащ which is the GEN.PL of :ukr: чащa [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃt͡ʃa] 'thicket, brambles, underbrush'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%89

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D ... B0#Russian

An ancestor could have been someone whose job was to clear the brush/coppice/smeuse at the forest's edge to prepare land for farming.
Alternatively, they might have sold light wood and sticks for kindling - a Pimpmaker, Bavinmaker or Fagetter


Could also possibly be the GEN.PL of :ukr: ча́ша [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃa] 'cup, mug; bowl; chalice'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... 8Da%C5%A1a

Someone who made/repaired cups/mugs - a bowler, gobeletier, mugseller

BTW
GEN.PL as patronymic in Slavic languages is very common. Cf. the much more common endings -ov, -off, -ev.
E.g.
Gudonov, Ivanov, Pavlov, Petrov
Smirnoff, Popoff, Rachmaninoff, Petroff
Yakovlev, Brezhnev, Krushchev

the former two чащ and ча́ш are simply FEM.GEN.PL patronymics.


Hope this helps!
[:)]
You're way off. <ch> is /x/ in Polish.
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 07 Jul 2018, 05:39

gestaltist wrote:
Fri 06 Jul 2018, 08:39
Lambuzhao wrote:
Thu 05 Jul 2018, 15:53
Could quite possibly come from the word чащ which is the GEN.PL of :ukr: чащa [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃt͡ʃa] 'thicket, brambles, underbrush'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%89

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D1%87%D ... B0#Russian

An ancestor could have been someone whose job was to clear the brush/coppice/smeuse at the forest's edge to prepare land for farming.
Alternatively, they might have sold light wood and sticks for kindling - a Pimpmaker, Bavinmaker or Fagetter


Could also possibly be the GEN.PL of :ukr: ча́ша [ˈt͡ʃa.ʃa] 'cup, mug; bowl; chalice'

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... 8Da%C5%A1a

Someone who made/repaired cups/mugs - a bowler, gobeletier, mugseller

BTW
GEN.PL as patronymic in Slavic languages is very common. Cf. the much more common endings -ov, -off, -ev.
E.g.
Gudonov, Ivanov, Pavlov, Petrov
Smirnoff, Popoff, Rachmaninoff, Petroff
Yakovlev, Brezhnev, Krushchev

the former two чащ and ча́ш are simply FEM.GEN.PL patronymics.


Hope this helps!
[:)]
You're way off. <ch> is /x/ in Polish.
That's certainly true, in Polish Orthography.
But, if they came from Western Ukraine, such may or may not be the case.

A lot depends on how Shemtov's family pronounces it, if they actually spent time in Poland, where they would've picked up that latinization, and/or if the name is written with an americanized spelling -v- Polish Orthography.

For instance, if Shemtov's family pronounce it as if Polish ⟨ch⟩ ≅ [h] clearly it's a Polish orthography, but if they pronounce it as [ t͡ʃ ] , then other factors are in play.
Shemtov wrote:the Yiddish last name would have been transcribed with a hei, instead of a ches.
Well, okay then. Sounds like [x]. Certainly not impossible.



However, I have relatives from Zakarpattya with the surname :ukr: Xoма.
A more modern, scholarly romanization may be written Choma.

However, all my relatives write it as 'Homa'. They came from Uzhhorod in Zakarpattya. They did not go thru nor stay in Poland, but rather went through Slovakia, and wound up in France for a short time (8 months~a year) before crossing to the USA. The French folks who wrote the ship's manifest could have transliterated it as 'Homa'. Alternatively, when they came to Ellis Island, the gringos there transliterated the name according to what sounded most like English. Either way, French ⟨ch⟩ or American English ⟨ch⟩ absolutely do not convey the sound of [h] nor [x].
Thus, Homa, not Choma.

Similarly, there are hundreds of Ukrainian-American surnames with ⟨ch⟩ which stands for [ t͡ʃ ] , such as Tkach, Leontovich, and scores of names ending in -chek or -chuk, which, if from Poland, would most likely have have preserved the rather unique and well-known orthographic variant ⟨cz⟩ in the americanized form.

Since Shemtov mentioned a possible Western Ukrainian origin for the name, and, following Americanized spelling conventions of Ukrainian names, that was why I chose those possibilities.

[;)]
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 07 Jul 2018, 05:53

Shemtov:

How do you pronounce the family name? Can you give an IPA?
Furthermore, do you have the Yiddish version, in Hebrew letters?
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Shemtov » Sun 08 Jul 2018, 03:19

In the Yiddish spelling, it's definitely a /x/. Also I found a romanazation, and the person Germanified it <Chasch>. If the initial sound was the affricate, wouldn't have the person spelt it <Tschasch>? IMO, <Chasch> is the best Germanized romanazation of Polish <Chaś>
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 08 Jul 2018, 16:39

Shemtov wrote:
Sun 08 Jul 2018, 03:19
In the Yiddish spelling, it's definitely a /x/. Also I found a romanazation, and the person Germanified it <Chasch>. If the initial sound was the affricate, wouldn't have the person spelt it <Tschasch>? IMO, <Chasch> is the best Germanized romanazation of Polish <Chaś>
Todah rabbah!

Clearly I went amiss with my Ukrainian suggestions. My radar went off when you mentioned a potential Westen Ukrainian origin, and considered the romanization based on americanizations of Ukrainian surnames, which was part of my own family's experience.

Sorry for the divagation. [:S]
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Shemtov » Sun 08 Jul 2018, 19:12

Also, the pronunciation doesn't matter, as it got changed on the way to America (not sure if Ellis Island- my great-grandfather passed through the UK, and a lot of the Anglicizations come from that) so my Mother's maiden name is <Cash>. We know some others used either a Polish or German Romanazation, and thus the name became <Chase>, with the affricate, but I assume that's just "Dumb American Syndrome" by the early 20th Century Immigration people. The reason we know it was /xaʃ/ in Europe is because we have records of my great-grandfather writing his name in Yiddish- Ches Aleph Shin. (Note that he had poor handwriting, and the middle letter was unclear, so we thought it was /xəxoʃ/ for a while, and wondered how that was Anglicized as <Cash> or <Chase>
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: Po Polsku

Post by Artaxes » Sun 15 Jul 2018, 22:17

Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 17:58
Sorry for speaking English here, but I figure this is probably the best place to ask: does anybody know what the Polish surname Chaś means?
I'm not sure, but Chaś may be shortenning from other Polish surname - Chłopaś, which is a diminutive form of "chłopak" (boy).
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