Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

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Salmoneus
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Salmoneus » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 21:57

And you have pre-rhotic mergers, I assume. For me, 'aero' and 'arrow' do not sound the same.
[To me, /j{/ sounds like a stereotype from north dakota or somewhere. I'm assuming your /j{/ is phonetically closer to my /jE:/ than the symbols suggest]
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Wed 12 Feb 2014, 22:09

Mayhap. I have a pretty standard Midwest US accent.
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Aleks
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Aleks » Sat 10 Oct 2015, 05:02

Is there any way for some generator to help me build the constraints? This seems somewhat complicated so I was wondering if I can put my phonemes in a program and generates combinations. I then pick ones I deem illegal and it makes a list of the constraints.
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Micamo
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Micamo » Sat 10 Oct 2015, 23:16

The thing is, if you already know what phoneme combinations you don't want, then there's no need for that part of the guide...
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Aleks
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Aleks » Sun 11 Oct 2015, 03:58

I only know of some I don't want. It would be tedious to figure out what it is not allowed.
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by eldin raigmore » Sun 11 Oct 2015, 14:32

Aleks wrote:I only know of some I don't want. It would be tedious to figure out what it is not allowed.
If you don't allow onset-clusters, that's a restriction against pairs of consonants appearing in the same syllable-onset;
if you don't allow coda-clusters, that's a restriction against pairs of consonants appearing in the same syllable-coda;
if you don't allow diphthongs or longer polyphthongs, that's a restriction against pairs of vowels appearing in the same syllable-nucleus.

Do you allow hiatuses? (An open (vowel-final) syllable followed immediately by an onsetless (vowel-initial) syllable in the same word.)

One naturalistic and realistic thing to do is rank the phonemes by sonority. (How many ranks there are, and what they are exactly, is language-specific in detail, though there's some general consistency from language to language.)
Many natlangs have a rule that in a syllable-onset sonority must not decrease, or must increase, or even must increase by some minimum number of ranks (for instance, the next consonant must be at least two ranks more sonorous than the previous consonant in the same onset).
And many natlangs have the corresponding rule for syllable-codas; sonority must not increase, or must decrease, or even must decrease by some minimum number of ranks (for instance, the next consonant must be at least two ranks less sonorous than the previous consonant in the same coda).

If you have either onset-clusters or coda-clusters or both, and you have both voiced and voiceless consonants, you might have a rule that if both a voiced consonant and an unvoiced consonant occur in the same syllable-margin, the voiced consonant has to be closer to the nucleus than the unvoiced consonant.

Do you have, or want, any rules that a certain consonant cannot be immediately followed, or cannot be immediately preceded, by a certain vowel, in the same syllable, or in the same word?
TTBOMK that would be rarish in natlangs, but not completely unknown.

For pairs of pulmonic egressive consonants, try going by rows and/or columns of the IPA chart.

Which {manners-of-articulation | places-of-articulation | phonemes} cannot be immediately followed by which {manners-of-articulation | places-of-articulation | phonemes} in the same {syllable-onset | syllable-coda | word} ?
If you don't choose "phonemes" both times, you'll eliminate several pairs at once.

Similarly, for consecutive pairs of vowels, you might go by closeness/openness (height) or frontness/backness or roundedness/unroundedness or peripheral/interior.
Do you want to disallow certain {heights | frontnesses | roundednesses | peripheralnesses | vowels} to be immediately followed by certain {heights | frontnesses | roundednesses | peripheralnesses | vowels} in the same {syllable | word}?

Do you have non-pulmonic (e.g. glottalic or velaric) or ingressive airstream consonants? (Ejectives are glottalic egressive; clicks are velaric ingressive.)
If so, you might require that they appear only in syllable onsets, or only as the first phoneme in a syllable, or even only as the first phoneme in a word.
Those are naturalistic and realistic IIANM.

If you have certain pairs of consonants that you won't allow in the same word, but the first of them can be the last sound in a syllable-coda and the second can be the first sound in a syllable onset, you have to figure out what to do if such a pair would come up in otherwise-normal lexicogeny/rhematopoeia/word-coining or morphology.
Choices include:
* insert some epenthetic sound between them
* metathesize them (switch their order), if that results in a legal pair
* mutate one of them (word-internal sandhi)
* drop/elide/omit one of them.

You'll probably have different restrictions for different locations; and you'll probably have different restrictions depending on what type(s) of sound(s) they are.

I hope that helps to at least start you off.
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by GrandPiano » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 20:09

I think I caught a minor typo:
Micamo wrote:Consonants: /p b t d k g f s v z m n r l y/
I'm assuming that you meant for that last consonant to be /j/.

I pronounce <yeah> as /jæ/ as well (which is usually realized as [jæ], but I think I sometimes say [jeə̯]; [eə̯] is my realization of /æ/ before nasals). My dialect is rhotic, and I have the Mary-marry-merry merger, so I pronounce <air>, <arrow> and <aero> as [eɹ], [eɹəʊ̯], and [eɹəʊ̯], respectively.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by LinguoFranco » Sat 23 Jul 2016, 18:35

I'm playing around with vowel systems for my conlang and I'm torn between what I want.

Here are some systems I am considering:

1. /a i u/ <ɐ i~y ʊ> I really like the last sound

2. /a e u/ Same as above, just with [e] instead of

3. /a e i o u/ <ɐ e/ɛ i~y o/ɔ ʊ> The phonemes between the slashes mean Idk which one I prefer.

Which do you like best, or what would you recommend for a better vowel system?

I really like [ʊ] and [ɐ]. I'm open to the sounds of the other letters.
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by elemtilas » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 02:18

LinguoFranco wrote:I'm playing around with vowel systems for my conlang and I'm torn between what I want.

Here are some systems I am considering:

1. /a i u/ <ɐ i~y ʊ> I really like the last sound

2. /a e u/ Same as above, just with [e] instead of

3. /a e i o u/ <ɐ e/ɛ i~y o/ɔ ʊ> The phonemes between the slashes mean Idk which one I prefer.

Which do you like best, or what would you recommend for a better vowel system?

I really like [ʊ] and [ɐ]. I'm open to the sounds of the other letters.


Well, it's your show -- you get to make the rules! All anyone else can do, really, is tell you which of these choices théy like better. And those answers will be informed by their own aesthetic senses and design goals. Theirs will undoubtedly be different from yours.

You job, should you choose to accept, is to figure out what your sense of aesthesis is, what your own design goals are and based on that information, answer your own question!

Now, go make an invented language!
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by LinguoFranco » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 03:30

elemtilas wrote:
LinguoFranco wrote:I'm playing around with vowel systems for my conlang and I'm torn between what I want.

Here are some systems I am considering:

1. /a i u/ <ɐ i~y ʊ> I really like the last sound

2. /a e u/ Same as above, just with [e] instead of

3. /a e i o u/ <ɐ e/ɛ i~y o/ɔ ʊ> The phonemes between the slashes mean Idk which one I prefer.

Which do you like best, or what would you recommend for a better vowel system?

I really like [ʊ] and [ɐ]. I'm open to the sounds of the other letters.


Well, it's your show -- you get to make the rules! All anyone else can do, really, is tell you which of these choices théy like better. And those answers will be informed by their own aesthetic senses and design goals. Theirs will undoubtedly be different from yours.

You job, should you choose to accept, is to figure out what your sense of aesthesis is, what your own design goals are and based on that information, answer your own question!

Now, go make an invented language!


The current project is to make my ideal language, and vowels are very important to me. I think I will take a break to develop other conlangs and find out my preferences with vowels.
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elemtilas
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by elemtilas » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 16:39

LinguoFranco wrote:
elemtilas wrote:Well, it's your show -- you get to make the rules! All anyone else can do, really, is tell you which of these choices théy like better. And those answers will be informed by their own aesthetic senses and design goals. Theirs will undoubtedly be different from yours.

You job, should you choose to accept, is to figure out what your sense of aesthesis is, what your own design goals are and based on that information, answer your own question!

Now, go make an invented language!
The current project is to make my ideal language, and vowels are very important to me. I think I will take a break to develop other conlangs and find out my preferences with vowels.
Indeed! When it comes to something as inward and personal as one's ideal language, I think you would do best to mull over what it is you find to be the most pleasing system.

There's no reason why you can't come back to it from time to time, even while you're working on other projects!
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by LinguoFranco » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 18:54

elemtilas wrote:
LinguoFranco wrote:
elemtilas wrote:Well, it's your show -- you get to make the rules! All anyone else can do, really, is tell you which of these choices théy like better. And those answers will be informed by their own aesthetic senses and design goals. Theirs will undoubtedly be different from yours.

You job, should you choose to accept, is to figure out what your sense of aesthesis is, what your own design goals are and based on that information, answer your own question!

Now, go make an invented language!
The current project is to make my ideal language, and vowels are very important to me. I think I will take a break to develop other conlangs and find out my preferences with vowels.
Indeed! When it comes to something as inward and personal as one's ideal language, I think you would do best to mull over what it is you find to be the most pleasing system.

There's no reason why you can't come back to it from time to time, even while you're working on other projects!
I originally had [y] in my conlang but not , and it was pointed out that such a feature is unusual.
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elemtilas
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by elemtilas » Sun 24 Jul 2016, 23:49

LinguoFranco wrote:I originally had [y] in my conlang but not , and it was pointed out that such a feature is unusual.


My response would simply be: and then...?

Whether or not some naysayer says 'oh, you can't do that, that's too unusual', is there a really good reason you hesitated in having [y] and not ? I'd encourage you, especially when it comes to deeply personal matters of taste and aesthetics, as you'll be dealing with in such a personal language, to take the suggestions of others (including mine!) with several pinches of salt. If you feel [y] ought to be one of the language's vowels and ought not, then I can hardly recommend enough that you make it so!

Tis as the Daine are fond of saying:
damo-ruí yan-we-at cariwianeng lahos : na-woytun and-yrman walyamera lahos!
DAT-2s.OBL EVER.PRES-ERG-6s-PROX please/delight-IMPF because : ABS-this PRES-2s.MASC make.it.like.that-IMPER then

If you like it that way, make it that way!

(Kindly forgive if I used the wrong pronoun...yrman is masc.)
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Lao Kou » Mon 25 Jul 2016, 12:54

elemtilas wrote:
LinguoFranco wrote:I originally had [y] in my conlang but not , and it was pointed out that such a feature is unusual.
My response would simply be: and then...?
[+1] I couldn't agree more (quelle surprise). "Highly unusual", "extremely rare", and "unattested" is often conlanging code for "You gettin' a little uppity, missy, get back and tow the line." ("and in the process, let me show everyone else here how much more I know than you")
Whether or not some naysayer says 'oh, you can't do that, that's too unusual', is there a really good reason you hesitated in having [y] and not ? I'd encourage you, especially when it comes to deeply personal matters of taste and aesthetics, as you'll be dealing with in such a personal language, to take the suggestions of others (including mine!) with several pinches of salt. If you feel [y] ought to be one of the language's vowels and ought not, then I can hardly recommend enough that you make it so!
You've already stated that it's your ideal language. Those who would write it off have already done so, or, if not at your "unusual" use of /y/, it'll come later with some "unusual" verb ending you've chosen (conflating A and B in one verb ending is "extremely rare").
If you like it that way, make it that way!
It's your ideal language. Why let people in the ether whom you've never met and are not necessarily invested in your ideal inform your decisions on what is "ideal"?
Now, go make an invented language!
Best advice ever!
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Re: Hand-held Conlanging Guide (WIP)

Post by Isfendil » Fri 04 Nov 2016, 22:15

I was really hoping for vowel/consonant mutation based morphology (I believe nonconcatenative is the operative word here) or the consonant inventory seccion.
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