Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Sun 25 Aug 2013, 10:23

Vòglio lavoràre a oràrio ridòtto coll’ànatra che nuòta nell’acquàio otturàto

This gem of a sentence was posted on the List today as a very mellifluous sentence. Do you think it sounds beautiful, especially knowing what it means?

It is very interesting hearing about the Italian dialects. I think there is something similar in France but to a much lesser degree as the government was pretty ruthless in establishing a standard language. Now very few people speak the regional dialects like Ch'ti and Niçois etc. and all the Provençal languages have suffered as well. When I was in the North of France I only heard two old people speak Ch'ti, and even then it wasn't the proper language. It was basically French with a funny accent where they say pichon instead of poisson and cot instead of chat. A lot of people told me they could understand it as their grandparents spoke it but couldn't speak it themselves.

I was still very interested in Ch'ti when I was there, and I would love to learn a little bit more about your Emilian (a very pretty name for a language). I will definitely have a look at the Wikipedia articles when I can.

Spoiler:

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Sun 25 Aug 2013, 15:59

OK, just a couple of remarks:
1) *Più presto → prima
2) Nice try with the apostrophes, but "d'ieri" is not possible because <ieri> is pronounced /'jεːri/, so that <i> is a /j/ and thus you can't elide the previous word. Curiously, you can when the first phoneme is /w/ even if it's a consonant, as in l'uomo, where <uomo> is /'wɔːmo/. I'm not sure I ever taught this rule. Now you know it ;)

By the way, if you want to know it, that sentence means:
I want to work on a reduced worktime with the duck that swims in the cloaked sink
where "acquaio" is a synonym of "lavello", used a lot in Tuscany but very seldom in other regions. Basically the sentence has no sense, though it looks a bit like a tongue-twister. There are worse ones, though, like trentatré trentini andarono a Trento, tutti e trentatré trotterellando (/t/ and /r/), tigre contro tigre (the same), chiodo scaccia chiodo (/kj/) and the infamous sopra la panca la capra campa, sotto la panca la capra crepa (/p/, /k/ and /r/), which I find difficult even to write without getting my brain messed up.

The fact you told about people understanding the language as their grandparents spoke it is also true here. In facts, my grandparents speak almost only Emilian, whereas my mother, for example, has difficulties even understanding it. I understand it and try to speak it as much as I can with my grandparents, so that it gets better and future generations (well, at least my sons) will be able to speak it. For their part, they try to correct me every time I make a mistake, and I really appreciate that, as in the past 3-4 years my Emilian has improved a lot.
I'm not going to post another lesson today, so I feel free to post something else. This is a comparison between some sentences in Italian and in Emiliâń e Rumagnôl.

ITA: Mi chiamo Alessio.
EML: A'm ciâm Alèssio.
ENG: My name is Alessio (lit. I call myself Alessio).

ITA: Come stai?
EML: Cum stê-t? (notice: affirmative "et stê", negative " 't'en stê ménga/brîsa" {ménga/brîsa = French pas}, question "stê-t", with an inversion which is not possible in Italian, but possible in French)
ENG: How are you? (lit. How do you stay?)

ITA: Io sto bene, e tu?
EML: Mè a stâg bèin, e tè? (notice that /mε/ and /tε/ in Italian are object pronouns, whereas in Emilian they are also subjects)
ENG: I'm fine, and you?

Some sentences that aren't used in Italian, but are in Emilian:

ITA: Che ti venga/venisse un cancro! (when cursing, both the present and the imperfect subjunctive are possible without changing the meaning)
EML: C'at véggna/gnéssa un càncher!
ENG: Get cancer! (lit. Let a cancer get to you!) - this is used more often than you might think in Emilian. It's a very bad curse, but it's just as frequent.

ITA: Che lavoro, zio canta!
EML: Ec lavôr, żio cânta!
ENG: What a job, uncle sings! (where "uncle sings" is an interjection whose origin can't be discussed here without flaming, so I'd rather avoid it. "What a job" is actually an expression of wonder)

ITA: Ostia patata!
EML: Òscia patàcca!
ENG: Wafer potato! (don't really know WHY in this world we say "wafer potato". We just say that.)

So yeah, Emilian is quite different from Italian especially because some sentences just don't make sense in the latter language, where they're commonly used in the first. If you have any question about Emilian, please ask, but not here where we'd go off topic, just send a PM.

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Mon 26 Aug 2013, 19:16

Aaaand have a nice Monday, everybody! Here I am, back for our daily Italian lesson.
Today we're going to talk about the superlative. Before that, I would like to introduce the adjectives/adverbs molto and tanto, which both tranlsate to "much/many".
First of all, why am I introducing those before actually talking about the superlative degree? After all, that's what they're used for - forming superlatives, right? Wrong.
Well, actually we could say that molto and tanto form some sort of superlative, but when you talk about a superlative in Italian, people will think of another thing. Let's see how these words work, however: we'll see this concept later.
Molto and tanto must be placed:
-before a noun, and in this case they act as adjectives and therefore decline. With uncountable nouns, they always stay in the singular, of course.
Ho tanti gatti. - I've got many cats.
C'è ancora molto sale nella saliera. - There is still much salt in the salt shaker.
-before an adjective or an adverb, but in this case they act as adverbs, so they don't decline. It's rare to see "tanto" before an adjective or an adverb.
Sei molto bella. - You're very beautiful.
Stai andando molto veloce. - You're going very fast.
-after a verb, and also in this case they act as adverbs, thus they don't decline.
Ho mangiato molto. - I ate a lot.
I'd say that "molto" and "tanto" are used equally. They have the exact same meaning, so no strange differentiation here.

OK, now for the superlative. As you know, there are two kinds of superlatives: relative and absolute ones. We'll start with the latter.
Generally, to form an absolute superlative, you are expected to add -issim- and then the declension vowel (o/a/i/e, depending on the gender and the number). Why not just use molto/tanto? These two have a lower impact on the word. What I mean is that a girl who is "bellissima" is more beautiful than a girl who is "molto bella" (also, when speaking with friends, they'll probably think you've got a crush on someone if you say she's "bellissima", but they will assume that you're just commenting if you say she's "molto bella"; this of course apply only to this adjective). Take a look at these absolute superlatives:
Alto → altissimo (high/tall)
Basso → bassissimo (low/short)
Gentile → gentilissimo (this makes adjectives ending in -e more regular - nice, uh?)
Of course, as always, there are some irregular absolute superlatives, like these:
Buono (good) → ottimo, eccellente
Cattivo (bad) → pessimo
Bello (nice, beautiful) → magnifico
Brutto (ugly) → orribile, orrendo
Grande (big) → enorme
Piccolo (small) → minuscolo
Alto (high) → sommo (somewhat antiquated)
Basso (low) → infimo (somewhat derogatory... and antiquated)
In this cases, it is also possible to form regular superlatives (buonissimo, cattivissimo...), and this is also quite common. When writing a book or a newspaper article, though, it's better to use these ones above.
Instead, the following, forming the superlative with -errim- instead of -issim-, can only be used in this form:
Aspro (sour) → asperrimo
Acido (acid) → acerrimo
Celebre (famous) → celeberrimo
Integro (morally sound) → integerrimo
Misero (poor) → miserrimo (but you can also use "povero" → "poverissimo")
Salubre (healthy) → saluberrimo (but you can also use "sano" → "sanissimo")

This was consistent! I'm going to include the relative superlative in our next lesson. For the time being, here is the usual completion exercise. Form the superlatives of the adjectives between parentheses.
1. Il cielo è ____________ (scuro). Pioverà. - The sky is very dark. It will rain.
2. Conosco un posto ____________ (bello) dove possiamo chiacchierare un po'. - I know a very beautiful place where we can chat a bit.
3. Questo limone è ___________ (aspro)! Prendimene un altro, per favore. - This lemon is very sour! Fetch me (prendi + me + ne = take + 1SG.DAT + {particle}) another one. (you'll never hear this phrase. Italians don't like using superlatives in -errim-. We generally just pretend we don't need them)
4. Quel signore è __________ (vecchio - watch out, you don't want two <i>'s, one is enough): dice di avere 120 anni. - That man is very old: he says he's 120.
5. Ieri Alonso è partito nono ed è arrivato secondo. È stato __________ (bravo). - Yesterday Alonso started 9th and finished 2nd. He's been very good (NB: bravo = good talking about skills - also an Italian loanword in the English language).
6. Vuoi andare a Napoli in bicicletta?! Sei pazzo? È _____________ (lontano)! - You want to go to Naples by bike?! Are you crazy? It's very far! (English doesn't render this enough - "lontanissimo" is very, very, very, very, very far!)
7. Quel negozio è _____________ (piccolo). Ci stanno a malapena gli scaffali! - That shop is very small. The shelves barely fit in it!

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Tue 27 Aug 2013, 00:05

Spoiler:

The superlatives are actually another place where Latin and Italian are similar, even the superlatives in -errimo date back to Latin. Latin did however have a synthetic comparative as well.

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Tue 27 Aug 2013, 16:51

Exercise correct, apart from "scurissimo" where you got an extra <r>. A typo, isn't it?
OK, so what's still left are the relative superlatives. Actually, these are quite simple: take the majority comparative and add the proper article in front of it.
Sono più bello di te. - I'm more beautiful than you.
Sono il più bello. - I'm the most beautiful.
Come cuoca sei migliore di me. - You're better than me as a cook.
Come cuoca sei la migliore. - You're the best as a cook.

When you want to specify the group in which the superlative is true, use the preposition "tra" (more "standard") or "di" (more colloquial).
Sei il più alto tra i/dei tuoi amici. - You're the tallest among your friends.
Di/tra tutte le persone che ho conosciuto, sei la più simpatica. - Among all the people I've met, you're the nicest.

This is all, actually, so we can introduce another topic: the indefinite adjectives.
As you know, an indefinite adjectives tells us more or less the quantity of something, without precising it with a number. In Italian, there are different indefinite adjectives and pronouns, according to the noun they modify/replace.

Big quantities: a lot
We've already seen how tanto and molto work as adjectives and adverbs, but never as pronouns.
-When they replace an object, they decline and that's all:
Quanta acqua c'è? Molta/tanta. - How much water is there? A lot.
-When they replace stand for many people, they become in molti:
In molti pensano che hacker e cracker siano la stessa cosa. - Many people think that hackers and crackers are the same thing.
It is commonly accepted to leave out the "in", though "in molti" is more common at the beginning of a sentence:
Se diventi parlamentare, (in) molti ti voteranno. - If you become a parliamentary, many people will vote for you.

Small quantities: little, few
There aren't many different expressions for small quantities in Italian: they all translate to "poco". As an adjective, it declines. Remember that the <c> must stay a /k/ all the time, so in the plural you should add a <h>.
Ho pochi soldi. - I have little money. (you can say "money" in two ways: soldo /'sɔldo/, countable, and denaro /de'naːro/, uncountable)
If you want to say "a little/a few/a bit" (and also "some" with uncountable nouns), you can use "un poco", that is commonly (I'd say always) elided to "un po' ". Don't write "un pò" or "un po": those are common but unacceptable mistakes. "Un poco/po' " must be followed by the preposition "di" (with no article).
Hai un po' di tempo per me? - Do you have some time for me?
Sono arrivate un po' di lettere per te. - A few letters for you arrived.
Just like with molto/tanto, as a pronoun replacing "few people" poco becomes in pochi.
In pochi credono ancora che il mondo sia piatto. - Few people still believe that the world is flat.

Each & every
"Each" and "every" always translate to "ogni" /'oɲɲi/, and they don't decline. Because of this, they must always be followed by a singular noun.
Ogni volta che ti vedo, sono felice. - Every time I see you, I'm happy.
However, in English, it's common for universal quantifiers to "merge" with other words, to form "everybody", "everywhere", "always"... These words have a separate translation in Italian.
All - Tutto (declines: tutto il tempo (all the time), tutta la vita (all the life), tutti i gatti (all the cats)...)
Everybody - Tutti (try not to confuse it with masculine plural "all": it shouldn't be difficult, as this one is always used as a pronoun)
Everywhere - Dappertutto
Always - Sempre /'sεmpre/ (per sempre = forever)

Any
There's no precise translation for "any" in Italian: generally, you use "whatever" (qualunque), that gets on well with subjunctives.
Qualunque cosa tu dica potrà essere usata contro di te. - Anything you say can and will be used against you.
These are the translations of the words in -ever and any- (they all require the verb in the same sentence to be in the subjunctive):
Anything - qualunque (cosa)
Whoever - chiunque
Wherever - (d)ovunque (with or without the <d>)
Whenever - quandunque (very, very rare)
However, anyways - comunque
As you can see, they are created by merging the corresponding interrogative word (quale = which) with "unque". Not difficult, eh?

No
Generally, "no" translates as nessuno, which declines like "uno" (and must therefore be followed by singular nouns only).
Non ho nessun amico. - I have no friend. (remember that masculine words beginning with a vowel want un)
When it merges with other words, it creates these (undeclinable) ones:
Nothing - niente
Nobody - nessuno (watch out as this also means "no" alone!)
Nowhere - da nessuna parte, in nessun luogo (there is no real translation, so you have to say "in no place")
Never - mai

Some
With countable nouns, "some" becomes the undeclinable word qualche, which must be followed by a singular noun.
Qualche giorno fa... - Some days ago...
Again, here are its possible merging results.
Something - qualcosa /kwal'kɔːza/
Somebody - qualcuno
Somewhere - da qualche parte, in qualche luogo (no proper translation, as with "nowhere")
Sometimes - qualche volta /'vɔlta/, a volte (again no proper translation)

Phew! This lesson is over. I'm tired. Your exercises will come tomorrow, or later. These lessons are getting harder even for me, haha!

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Wed 28 Aug 2013, 18:22

OK, here are your exercises, as promised. Complete this sentences (we'll get to full translations as soon as I can post enough lexicon).
1. Conosco ______ ragazze, ma tu sei ____________ (bello) di tutte. - I know many girls, but you're the most beautiful of them all. (note that tutto declines in both gender and number, whereas tutti, when it means everybody, only declines in gender if needed)
2. Il mare _____________ (salato) del mondo è il Mar Morto. - The saltiest sea in the world is the Dead Sea. (two things to notice: when the relativity of the superlatives depends on a place rather than a group, you always use di; also, there is already an article for "mare", so you don't need it anywhere else...)
3. Mi alzo ________ giorno alle 6. - I get up every day at 6.
4. ____________ hanno passato quell'esame. - Few people passed that exam.
5. Verrò con te, ___________ tu vada. - I'll come with you, wherever you'll go.
6. Non lo farò _______! - I'll never do that!
7. Chi vince la gara non è ______ __________, ____________ è solo il pilota con la macchina _________ (veloce). - Who wins the race isn't always the best, sometimes it's just the driver with the fastest car. (I didn't think I could fit as many as four gaps in a single sentence - record!)

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Wed 28 Aug 2013, 23:22

I think 'scurrissimo' was a typo. I was probably confusing myself with the -errimo superlatives.

Spoiler:

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Thu 29 Aug 2013, 16:18

OK, correction:
1) Yes, you're right.
3) "Tutto" doesn't work like that: you don't say "everything" there. Hence, you must use "ogni".
4) Wherever = dovunque. You just misread, it would be OK (though uncommon) to use "quandunque" otherwise.
7) In this case, "migliore" refers to "pilota", that looks like a feminine word, but if you look at the sentence better it actually says "il pilota". So you must use "il migliore". Also, I was sure I wrote it but I can't find it so I'll write it here: "migliore" doesn't decline in gender, only in number (and becomes "migliori" in the plural). Another mistake: "a volte".

Very well, I figured out that I should give these lessons a title so that you can find the previous topics when you need to, so that's what I'm going to do now.

IRREGULAR VERBS - PART I
In Italian there are many, many irregular verbs. Here are the conjugations of some of them.

FARE - to do, to make
Irregular in: PRESENT INDICATIVE
Io faccio
Tu fai
Egli fa
Noi facciamo
Voi fate
Essi fanno
PAST PARTICIPLE - fatto
IMPERFECT ROOT: fac- (+ ev: facevo, facevi...)

DIRE - to say, to tell
Irregular in: PRESENT INDICATIVE
Io dico
Tu dici
Egli dice
Noi diciamo
Voi dite (Italian and French are so similar here that the most common mistake, voi dicete, has a translation in French, where the most common mistake is vous disiez. The correct 2pl of the verb... well, dire, is dites.)
Essi dicono
IMPERATIVE (2sg) - di' (actually not an irregularity, rather a shortening; "dici!" is very rare)
PAST PARTICIPLE - detto
IMPERFECT ROOT: dic- (+ ev: dicevo, dicevi...)

USCIRE - to exit, to go out
Irregular in: PRESENT INDICATIVE
Io esco /'esko/
Tu esci /'eʃʃi/
Egli esce /'eʃʃe/
Noi usciamo /uʃ'ʃaːmo/
Voi uscite /uʃ'ʃiːte/
Essi escono /'eskono/

PORRE - to place (quite rare)
Verbs in -RRE are always irregular; most of the time, if you know the root the irregularities become much less.
Irregular in: PRESENT INDICATIVE
Io pongo
Tu poni
Egli pone
Noi poniamo
Voi ponete
Essi pongono
Notice how this verbs is conjugated as if it was "ponere", except in 1sg and 3pl.
PAST PARTICIPLE: posto /'pɔsto/ (also means "place" and "seat" as in "his seat on the bus", il suo posto sull'autobus)
Incredibly regular in the future (porrò, porrai...).
IMPERFECT ROOT: pon- (+ ev: ponevo, ponevi...)

Exercises coming later, I'm in a hurry. Bye!

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Thu 29 Aug 2013, 21:35

I've fixed up my answers. Quandunque was just a misreading, I somehow misread it about three times. But with exercise three I really wasn't sure what to do with giorno as it was in the singular. For some reason I didn't think of ogni, probably because French tout has used that sort of cross over into its territory (I was thinking of the expression tous les jours). Maybe it would be better to think of ogni as being equivalent to chaque?

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Fri 30 Aug 2013, 16:40

Precisely. Ogni = chaque. You can still say "tutti i giorni", but as you can see, just like in French, you need two things: a plural and an article.
OK, I promised I'd add the exercises, and so I'll do, but before that I would like to post the new lesson.

COMMON EXPRESSIONS - PART I
Some Italian expressions just don't make sense if they are translated literally. I decided I'd write about those today.

Generic
Come (person.DAT) va? - How are/is (person)? The dative pronoun is optional; this strangely works if you translate it literally in German, as wie geht es (person.DAT)?. In facts, "va" is 3sg of "andare", which I didn't conjugate for you yesterday for some strange reason. Anyways it's vado, vai, va, andiamo, andate, vanno and the future root is andr-.
So, come (ti) va? = how are you?

Come stai? - same as above, but uses the (almost) regular verb "stare".

Cosa c'è? - What's the matter/What's now? Used also to answer when you're called by your name, even if some people might think it's a bit rude.

Fai (or fa') il bravo! - Behave correctly! Literally do the good one!. Used especially with children.

Figurative sentences
Ho perso la testa (per <person>). - I fell in love (with <person>). Literally, I lost my head for.

Sono al verde. - I'm broke. Literally, I'm at green.

Sei in gamba! - You're good (at doing this)! Literally, you're in leg.

Ha tirato le cuoia. - He died. Literally, he pulled the (animal) skins. Very rude, generally used when the speaker hated the deceased.

Vuota il sacco! - Tell me everything! Literally, empty the bag!.

Ho mangiato la foglia. - I understood. Literally, I ate the leaf. Used only when understanding implies intelligence, and especially to mean "to discover a conspiracy".

Ha tagliato la corda. - He fled. Literally, he cut the rope.

OK, now our exercises! Guess what you have to do? ... yes, complete these sentences, again.
1. Ti _____ (dire) che quel vecchio _________________! - I tell you (NB "ti" in this case is a dative), that old man died!
2. ________________, altrimenti non ti comprerò quel videogioco. - Behave correctly, otherwise I won't buy you that videogame.
3. Scaldate il forno mentre noi _________ (fare) la torta. - Heat up the oven while we bake (make) the cake.
4. Dopo anni, il Presidente ___ finalmente _____________________ ed arrestato cinque cospiratori. - After (many) years, the President has finally understood and arrested five conspirators.
5. I nuovi contatti tra la Ferrari e Räikkönen ____________ (porre) le basi per un ritorno del finlandese nel 2014. - The new contacts between Ferrari and Räikkönen lay the foundations (it. place the foundations, the basis) for a return of the Finnish in 2014.
6. Stasera non ________ (uscire), sono stanco. - I won't go out tonight, I'm tired. (notice that in Italian you can speak in the present if the future is recent; this is sometimes done in English, too)
7. Hai segnato tre goal in quella partita. _________________! - You scored three goals in that match. You're good!
8. Vorrei prestarti i soldi che mi hai chiesto, ma ______________. - I would like to lend you the money you asked for, but I'm broke.
9. «Alessio!» «___________? Spero che tu abbia un motivo valido per interrompere la mia partita a Skyrim!» - «Alessio!» «What's now? I hope you have a valid motive to interrupt my Skyrim game!»
10. Si _______ (dire) che tu abbia ucciso un uomo. È vero? - They say you killed a man. Is it true? (notice the mediopassive!)

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Mon 09 Sep 2013, 22:15

Wow I'm really sorry over being so late, we had a brief school break and rather than have time off, I've been super duper busy. Things should start cooling down this week so I should have more of a chance to do exercises.

Spoiler:

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Tue 10 Sep 2013, 09:25

Perfect, your exercise is 100% correct. Don't worry about being late, you're pretty much the only one who's answering, nobody's going to complain.
During the past week - my last week at work! - I thought a lot about the new topic of these lessons and came out with the idea of writing a whole lesson focused on word order, as Italian is quite different from English under this aspect.

WORD ORDER
The standard word order is the "classic" SVO: Subject, verb, object. However, this generally applies only when both subject and object are nouns.
Il gatto mangia il topo. - The cat eats the mouse.

When the object is a tonic pronoun, no problem, the order stays the same:
Graziano odia te. - Graziano hates you (with emphasis on "you", as in "it's you who he hates").
However, if it's an atone pronoun (as it is in most cases), it goes before the verb: the order becomes SOV.
Graziano ti odia. - Graziano hates you.

Italian features an implied subject. When you want to emphasize it, you can express it; however, if there is an object in the sentence, the subject goes generally after the verb, thus reverting the word order completely and forming an OVS sentence.
L'ho fatto io! - I did it!
If, instead, there is no object, the meaning of the sentence can change according to where you put the subject.
Io mangio. - As for me, I'll eat (you do what you want, but I'm definitely going to eat).
Mangio io. - I'll be the one to eat (I'm willing to eat what you apparently don't want to).
In both cases, you can here a lowering tone on the subject pronoun, which carries the sentence stress, too.

Now that we've talked about word order with subject, verb and object, we're going to see where the other complements go in the sentence.

Place - Complementi di luogo
There are mainly two complements expressing the place where something is in.
-If something is moving, the complement must directly follow the verb. This applies to every complement expressing some kind of motion.
Vado a casa. - I'm going/I'll go home.
-When something doesn't move, the place it's in is generally stated at the very beginning of the sentence (after the expressions of time, if any). However, to express that someone/something is in a place, the latter will come right after the verb.
A Roma ha piovuto. - It rained in Rome.
Sono a Roma. - I'm in Rome.

Time - Complementi di tempo
Generally, the time of the action is the first thing being stated in the sentence. It's also quite common to separate it from the rest of the sentence with a comma if the subject is espressed.
Ieri ha piovuto. - It rained yesterday.
Oggi pomeriggio, Andrea giocherà a calcio con i suoi amici. - Andrew will play football with his friends this afternoon.

Company/Union - Complementi di unione e di compagnia
When something is with something else, the latter is stated after the object and after the expression of place (if there is any).
Stasera andrò al cinema con Cristina. - I'm going to the cinema with Christina tonight.
Sto studiando storia con Stefano. - I'm studying history with Steven. (this is the most appropriate sentence to embarass a Spaniard - they don't like word-initial S's followed by a consonant)

Manner - Complementi di modo
These must always follow the verb. This rule has priority on anything else.
Mangerò volentieri quella mela. - I'll gladly eat that apple.
Vado velocemente in bagno. - I'll go to the bathroom quickly.

Frequency - Avverbi di frequenza (these are adverbs)
Generally, these adverbs follow the verb, but they can be found before it, too (only "a volte", "ogni tanto", "di tanto in tanto" etc., that is, adverbs meaning "sometimes", must always go before the verb)
Vai spesso a Venezia? - Do you often go to Venice?
Raramente mangio verdura. - I seldom eat vegetables.
There's no rule for this - they can be in both places with no major change to the meaning of the sentence. The only difference I can perceive between "spesso vado all'estero" and "vado spesso all'estero" is that the first sentence tells the interlocutor, who knew the frequency of the action, what the action is (or other details about it), whilst the second one tells them the frequency as they knew the action. To express this better:
«Dove vai in vacanza?» «Spesso vado all'estero» - «Where do you go on holiday?» «I often go abroad». Here the interlocutor expected the "often", as they asked for the place where the speaker spends his holidays.
«Sei mai stato all'estero?» «Sì, ci vado spesso/vado spesso all'estero» - «Have you ever been abroad?» «Yes, I often go there/abroad». Here the interlocutor wants to know whether the action happened - he's not actually asking about the frequency, but of course he doesn't know that; instead, he knows the action.
Keep in mind that these are minor considerations and you'll be understood perfectly even if you always put adverbs of frequency before or after the verb. You may sound a bit foreign, but that's not very important. Clarity is!

So, to recap, the word order is generally:
Time - Place (no motion) - Subject - Frequency - Verb - Frequency/Manner (if you have to use both, it's better to put the adverb of frequency before the verb) - Object/Place (motion) - Company

Exercises! Today, the exercise will be a bit different. Rearrange these words so that they form a correct sentence (words not separated by a slash must stay together).

ha fatto/ieri/con Erica/i compiti/Giovanni
did/yesterday/with Erica/his homework/Giovanni

il pavimento/hai lavato/bene ?
the floor/washed/well ? (question form)

incessantemente/piove/oggi/ad Ancona
incessantly/rains/today/in Ancona

io/bevo/lo
I/drink/it (NB: means "I will be the one to drink that")

gioco/io
play/I (NB: means "As for me, I'll play; you do what you want")

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Wed 11 Sep 2013, 04:10

Yes very true. We can still hope that someone else may join though

Spoiler:

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Tue 17 Sep 2013, 14:06

Floow = typo for "floor". >.<
Exercise 100% correct, apart from the question mark in the interrogative sentence (you forgot to put it).
Today, our topics will be the prospective aspect (even if we don't regard it as an aspect) and some other temporal constructions.

PROSPECTIVE ASPECT
In Italian, you can use a special construction to show that an action is going to happen immediately. In linguistics, this is called the prospective aspect. The Italians generally treat prospective sentences as phraseological sentences, thus you'll never hear someone else calling it a grammatical aspect; however, for the sake of clarity, we will call it like that.
To form a prospective sentence, take the verb stare, conjugate it properly, then add the preposition per and a verb in the infinite form.

Sto per mangiare. - I'm going to eat (in a few moments).

In the past (which must always be an imperfect past: the prospective aspect can't be used with compound tenses), a prospective sentence will get a different meaning: it will express that the subject nearly did something, but in the end they didn't succeed or they changed their mind.

Stavo per mangiare. - I nearly ate (but then I changed my mind/failed to do so).

In the future, it retains its prospective meaning, but it's used very rarely.
Quando starò per dormire, spegni la luce. - A few moments before I sleep/fall asleep (I don't think when I'll be going to sleep is acceptable in English, is it?), turn off the lights.

You can't use the prospective in any conditional sentence: remember that in those cases the indicative future replaces a non-existing subjunctive future, thus nothing else can be used in its place.

OTHER TEMPORAL SPECIFICATIONS - INIZIARE A, CONTINUARE A, FINIRE/SMETTERE DI
In Italian, there are many other ways to tell the duration of an action, either focusing on its continuation, or on the moment it started/ended. These three (actually, four) expressions can be translated as start, continue/keep and finish/end.

Iniziare a
First off, you should know that all of the verbs we will use today are regular; finire undergoes the so-called root dilatation (finisco, finisci, finisce, finiamo, finite, finiscono), and the others just follow the respective conjugation. Only "smettere", conjugating like "mettere", is irregular in the past participle (smesso).
Iniziare a means "to start". So:
Ho iniziato a fumare. - I started smoking.
Quando inizi ad andare in palestra? - Where are you starting going to the gym? (notice that here Italian uses the present - I don't know if I've mentioned it before, it is possible to substitute the future with the present for scheduled actions)
Inizierò domani. - I'll start tomorrow (... but the future is still acceptable).

Continuare a
It's not difficult to tell that "continuare" means "to continue" or "to keep" (as in "I kept talking"). Just watch out: the pronunciation is /konti'nwaːre/ and the 1sg form, continuo, is pronounced /kon'tiːnwo/, with the stress falling on the <i>.
Nonostante i ripetuti richiami, l'alunno Rossi continua a disturbare la lezione. - In spite of repeated warnings, the student Rossi keeps disturbing the lesson (typical... how do you call these? We call them demerit notes, they're what the teachers write on the gradebook when you don't behave as you should).
Non potevo fermarmi, perciò ho continuato a guidare. - I couldn't stop, so I continued to drive.

Finire/smettere di
These two have actually slightly different meanings. While finire di indicates that an action ended without telling further details, smettere di specifically means "to give up", as in "I gave up smoking"; thus, it involves a habit.
A giugno finirò di andare a scuola. - In June, I'll quit going to school (better, but not literal, translation: after June, I won't go to school anymore).
Mio padre ha smesso di fumare. - My father gave up smoking.
In the imperative form, their meanings change. Generally, when you're angry because someone is continuing to do something you wish they quit, you use smettere di.
Smetti di urlare! - Quit shouting!
You can also say "smettila" alone (I don't know what the hypothetical object would be, the feminine is strange here, but it's like that).
Smettila! - Quit!
If you use finire di, instead, the interlocutor will understand that he has to continue the current action until he's done (so it's practically the exact opposite, and can be translated quite literally with the English verb "to finish"). Example:
Finisci di mangiare prima di telefonare a Rachele. - Finish eating before telephoning Rachel.

That's all! Here are the usual exercises.

A. PROSPECTIVE ASPECT - Complete the sentences choosing the right tense and aspect (not all of these sentences require a prospective).
1. Corri! Quell'albero ________________ (cadere), ci resterai sotto! - Run! That tree is going to fall, you'll get trapped under it!
2. Non mi piacciono quelle nuvole. Penso che domani __________________ (piovere). - I don't like those clouds. I think it will rain tomorrow.
3. Non posso tardare, o _________________ (perdere) il pullman! - I can't be late, or I'll miss the bus!
4. Ho bevuto troppo alcool. Adesso non mi sento bene, ________________ (vomitare). - I drank too much alcohol. Now I'm not feeling good, I'm going to throw up.
5. Kimi Räikkönen _______________ (realizzare) il suo sogno: se vincerà, _______________ (essere) campione del mondo di Formula 1! - Kimi Räikkönen is going to realize his dream: if he wins, he'll be the Formula 1 World Champion! (just in case you didn't notice I'm a Ferrari fan...)
6. Resta ancora un po'! Mio marito __________________ (tornare) e vorrebbe vederti. - Stay a bit more! My husband will be back soon (notice that there is no word meaning "soon" in this sentence - hint?) and he'd like to see you.

B. OTHER TEMPORAL SPECIFICATIONS
Complete the sentences with the correct form of iniziare a, continuare a, finire di or smettere di.
1. Ieri ___________________ studiare tedesco. - Yesterday I started studying German.
2. Eravamo ancora a Massa quando ___________________ piovere. - We were still in Massa when it started raining.
3. Prima di giocare, ___________________ fare i compiti! - Before playing, finish doing your homework!
4. Gli hanno sparato, ma ha ________________ correre. - They shot him (IT: they shot at him), but he kept running.
5. _______________ bere. _______________ fumare. ______________ dire parolacce. Porca putt*na, m'è caduta la sigaretta nel whisky! - I quit drinking (alcohol). I quit smoking. I quit saying bad words. Holy sh*t, my cigarette fell in my whisky! (popular joke)
6. ___________________ colpire il nemico finché non muore. - Keep hitting the enemy until he dies.

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Tue 17 Sep 2013, 21:22

Ah! I was wondering what 'floow' was

You can say 'When I go to sleep...' or 'Just before I go to sleep...', but definitely not 'When I will be go going to sleep...' which is really unwieldy.

It seems that Italian uses the present for the future almost exactly like English does, which is weird because French, and I think Romance in general, is pretty strict about maintaining tense. English, coming from a language with only two tenses is understandably more free about it. I think French takes it's strictness from Latin but I'm not sure; in independent clauses Latin is strict but in any dependent clause it defaults to the present and assumes the tense of the main clause.

Alessio wrote:Quando inizi ad andare in palestra? - Wheren are you starting going to the gym?

Edit Forgot exercises:

Spoiler:

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Wed 18 Sep 2013, 15:10

.-. How could I possibly write "where" instead of "when"? .-.
Anyways, your exercise is a bit of a mess... your prepositions are wrong. You used "stare a" that has no meaning, just like "finire a" and "smettere a": you should use "stare per", "finire di" and "smettere di".
Other minor mistakes are: "finisce" instead of "finisci" (3rd conjugation = imperative is the same as 2sg), "continua" instead of "continui" (the exact opposite - 1st conjugation = imperative is the same as 3sg) and "perdrò" instead of "perderò" (typo?).
You can say "finisci i compiti" (and in facts this sentence is heard more often), but watch out as "homework" is numerable in Italian, so you must pluralize it.
As for sentence B5, I read online that "quit" can also be the past simple form of the verb. Is this correct? This was the meaning I intended to give to that sentence, so I expected a recent past: ho smesso. Anyways, now that I notice it, I think I should have used "gave up".

News. School has started! In Italy, you graduate from high school at 19 (assuming you were born before the end of the school year, of course), so I still have one year left (I'm 18). During the next 9 months I will be a bit less active. I will still post as much material as I can, but it's probable that there won't be many long lessons. In facts, I had no time to prepare one today. I will post some other news instead (real news this time): the wreck of Costa Concordia, the ship that was stuck on a rock near the shore of Isola del Giglio (Lily Island), Tuscany, has been set upright. It is a major honor for Italy: we are the first country that could carry out this task, judged impossible by many, but realized by Italian workers. Of course, we can't boast: after all, it was also the first time that a ship captain caused such a disaster and fled. The words of Comandante De Falco, "salga a bordo, cazzo!" ("get on board, dammit!"), will be famous forever. We hope that such a tragedy won't happen again, and look forward to the ship being carried to a harbour where it will be dismantled.

I announce that I'm working on some new lyrics to post here. Hopefully, they'll be ready tomorrow evening. Bye!

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Wed 18 Sep 2013, 21:27

Well shit, obviously I just skimmed the lesson without reading it properly... And if I'd thought about it I should have realised! I'm afraid the other mistakes weren't typos either... I think I was rushing.

Yes, quit is the simple past as well as the present, so it is ambiguous. Although in this context it would make more sense for it to be in the past, so I don't know why I put it in the present. The only time you would be referring to the present is if you woke up the next morning with a pounding headache, a dry mouth, a sore stomach and a bad cough.

So you are in your final year? How do the years work there? Is it like the French system (il terminale)? In New Zealand there are 13 years which start at five and so you finish at 18. And if you're born after about December, you'll end up finishing when you're 17. That's what happened to me, so now I'm 19 and in my second year of Uni.

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Thu 19 Sep 2013, 18:43

Nope, it's not like in France, afaik. Here it works like this:
-You start school at 6, and there are 13 years. So basically you just start one year later, but the years you go through are the same.
-The first five years are called elementary school (scuola elementare); until 2005, you had to pass an exam to go to middle school, but since 2006 you don't have to anymore. If you do some maths, it turns out that the exam was removed from the year I had to do it.
-The following three years are called middle school (scuola media inferiore, or just scuola media). Then, you have to pass an exam and choose what high school you want to attend to. Every school teaches the same things until the 8th year.
-Then, you have the last five high school years (scuola media superiore, or just scuola superiore). What you study here changes based on the type of school you attend to. I chose an ITC (istituto tecnico commerciale = business school, practically); the main types are ITC, IPI (Istituto Professionale Industriale - professional industrial institute), ITI (Istituto Tecnico Industriale - technical industrial institute) and Liceo (lyceum). Typically, if you choose an IPI you get a full diploma after an exam held on your third year, and you can choose to continue and get a specialization; this also applies to most ITIs. If you choose an ITC you'll get a diploma only on your fifth year (at the end), after an exam of course; if you choose a lyceum, you'll do the exam, but you won't get a diploma at all: you'll be forced to go to university to get one.
There are different sections of every institute, of course; we call them indirizzi (addresses). Typical indirizzi in lyceums are lingusitic, scientific and classic (literature & history, basically). ITCs today follow some kind of a "trident": the first two years are the same for every indirizzo, then you have to choose between AFM (Amministrazione, Finanza e Marketing - administration, finance and marketing, the standard course specializing in almost everything about business), RIM (Relazioni Internazionali e Marketing - international relationships and marketing, focussing more on languages - do I need the second <s> in "focussing"?) and SIA (Sistemi Informativi Aziendali - business information systems, focussing on information technology). Back when I started, the SIA indirizzo was called Mercurio (mercury), so I'm in 5A Mercurio (5 = class, A = section, Mercurio = indirizzo) and I'll get a businessman, commercial expert and computer programmer diploma.

Universities are a bit different - most last 3 years and give you a basic degree (laurea triennale or laurea semplice), then you can add other 2 years to get a master's degree (laurea magistrale). If you study medicine, you'll have other 6 compulsory specialization years to be a surgeon, but other qualifications require only the first 5 years (you'll do nothing with the basic degree alone). This means that a doctor has to study for 24 years before he/she can operate a patient. Still, there are medical malpractice cases every year.

How many hours per week does school last in New Zealand? Here, most high schools follow a 32 hours plan: 6 days per week, leaving out Sunday; 4 days last 5 hours, and 2 last 6; you never get to eat lunch before going home, as school starts at 8am and finishes either at 1 or 2pm. We have two breaks, a quarter of an hour around 11am and ten minutes around 1pm when we stay until 2pm.

kanejam · Post by **kanejam** » Fri 20 Sep 2013, 00:37

Focussing vs. Focusing... I actually have no idea. I know that focused and focuses should only have a single s but it looks like both forms of focusing are correct and maybe just up to you?

The New Zealand system is a bit different. Years 1-8 are primary school and 9-13 are secondary school. There are also a few intermediate schools that just have years 7-8. Under an older system, years 7-13 were called 'forms' from 1-7, so a common derogatory nick name for third-formers (ie year 9's) is turd. Secondary school is usually called high school or college (different from the American usage). College is more common in school names and high school is more common in speech but both are interchangeable.

School times vary a little bit but usually runs from 9-3 for primary schools and 9-3.30 for secondary school, with a break at 12.30 for lunch, usually an hour long. There is also a 'morning tea break' around 10.30 that might last about 15mins. It seems very odd not to have lunch at school. What on earth do you do with all the free time after school?? I suppose people's parents come home at lunch as well? What do kids do whose parents are stuck at work all day?

The national education system is only for the last three years of school, before then schools just do their own thing teaching general stuff and basically doesn't count for anything. There are no real separate specialisation schools, although the national system NCEA allows you to pick and mix classes including things like Tech (woodworking etc.) or Drama etc. for people who don't necessarily want to go to university.

Then there's tertiary level which is much more diverse. New Zealand has only one or two universities per main city and not many main cities

Bachelor Degrees (the basic degree) are 3 years long and then various other things after that.

Alessio · Post by **Alessio** » Fri 20 Sep 2013, 13:47

Well, most parents don't come home at lunchtime, so... we just find our lunch on the cookers, heat it up and eat it. Some have to cook for theirselves. As far as I know, however, when you attend to elementary school (can I use just a preposition here? "at elementary school"?) parents vote to choose if you prefer excluding Saturdays and going to school from 8.15am to 4pm every day, with a morning break lasting half an hour and generally one hour and a half for lunch, or following the so-called moduli (forms), going to school every morning from 8.15am to 1.30pm with a 15 minutes break and just one day (generally Tuesday or Thursday) when you stay until 4pm, with one hour for lunch. If you choose this option, however, you must attend to school on Saturdays as well.
Back to my elementary school years, I followed the first option, and I loved staying in bed on Saturdays but hated being at school until 4pm every day. In facts, I liked it much more when I went to middle school, where the timetable was the same as that of "moduli". Nowadays, middle school students have to go to school until 4pm twice per week, however. It's another change that happened after I had already finished middle school.
As for universities, we have one in most cities. My region, Emilia-Romagna, is split into 9 provinces, each with (of course) a capital; 5 capitals (Bologna, Parma, Ferrara plus Modena and Reggio nell'Emilia sharing the same university, with some faculties located in one and some in the other) have a university. My region is the 6th out of 20 sorted by territorial extension, and the universities are mostly in Emilia, so people from Romagna generally have to go to Bologna or Ferrara, and when you live in Rimini for example you are some 120kms (~75 miles) far from there. The alternative is Urbino, in the Marche region, which is a bit closer; still, it's stupid that there are 5 universities in your region and you have to go to another one.

Very well, I think our new lesson will be ready for tomorrow: it will be about the formation of adverbs and probably present participles (actually, present participle has a different meaning in Italian, but actual Italian present participles are almost useless, so we'll study what English speakers call this way). Now I'm going to give IT lessons to a teacher, they introduced an online gradebook this year and many old people have problems with it, so this teacher pays me to teach him to use it... he pays well, so it's OK haha! Bye!

Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons

Re: Corso d'Italiano - Italian Lessons