Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Tue 25 Nov 2014, 20:30

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
One wonders why some languages easily drop nasals with nasalization only lasting a short time, while others keep it, why is it that French keeps nasalization that developed in the early middle ages, while for instance Germanic languages have more or less lost the Proto-Germanic nasalization completely, apart from maybe frisian? and dalecarlian.

Does the amount of minimal pairs really matter? French is loaded with homophones.

It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" [:S] consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Tue 25 Nov 2014, 22:51

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].
That's OK, but does good old Andy (Sihler) tell us when the change can be assumed to have happened? I seem to remember something like the first century BC, am I wrong by much?

And anyone pronouncing actual [m] after most dialects of Latin had undergone the change wasn't making a mistake, it was merely a conservative pronounciation!
HinGambleGoth wrote:It is interesting to see that PIE, a language making me think of Czech or Arabic, filled with "impossible" consonant clusters, developed into stuff like Danish and French, that just sound like garbled vowels and approximants.
That's interesting alright. But it's not surprising: nearly 6000 years is an enormously long time...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 26 Nov 2014, 01:43

Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Wed 26 Nov 2014, 13:16

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Not unpredictably, I bought that book myself years ago (you know, :con: Atlántika didn't build itself on its own [:)] ). It's definitely a good book, and in spite of the title it has plenty of info on Sanskrit too. And if one wants to get into Indo-European studies, I'm afraid that some knowledge of Sanskrit, even superficial (like mine [:$] ), is mandatory.

But the book you should have on IE (if you don't already) is Indo-European Language and Culture: an Introduction by Benjamin W. Fortson IV. Thorough, comprehensive, clear and well-written. I have the first edition, but a second edition (2009) is now available, restyled & expanded, and now with 30% less laryngeals. It's even relatively cheap, and worth buying (even though I was joking about the laryngeals [;)] ).
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Wed 26 Nov 2014, 18:57

I am getting more and more convinced that that PIE was a kind of http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BlackSpeech

It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination, the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Thu 27 Nov 2014, 15:43

HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » Fri 28 Nov 2014, 22:52

atman wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:It's verb system was basically a kind of eldritch abomination
Well, after a few years it starts making sense, maybe, somewhat... [:)] And Ancient Greek and Sanskrit had even more complex systems !
HinGambleGoth wrote:the early philologists went insane and became possessed by "dejus patr" and began hosting secret cults where they ate horses.
The kʷékʷlos klan :?: :!:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » Wed 17 Dec 2014, 02:02

Lambuzhao wrote:
Chagen wrote:IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin ...
:?: :!:


[O.O] WOW! THANK YOU for sharing, Chagen. This book looks like a lot of fun!!!! :mrgreen:
Now I definitely know what to ask Santa for Christmas :idea:
Well, maybe if you've been very very good this year, perhaps Yeolfather will bring you a copy of Sihler! (Just don't forget to hang up a new sock, and never èver forget to leave the window open just a crack, lest Yeolfather break down your window just to get in!)

I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » Thu 18 Dec 2014, 16:12

elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by elemtilas » Thu 18 Dec 2014, 17:38

Skógvur wrote:
elemtilas wrote:I found NCGGL terribly handy when coming to grips with Talarian. Was also pretty helpful in dispelling the myth of the "Latin verb system" we were taught in grammar school as applying to the English verbal system. It never sat well with me, but S. made it much clearer as to why.
What myth is that?
Basically the one to one correspondence of English to Latin (or French or Spanish) forms. Mind you, it's not like I knew what the Latin forms were until I got into college, but the standard grid of tenses we learned in Latin (and French in HS) was already very familiar to me from grammar school English. Sihler put into words what I had already felt: that English is far more aspect oriented than Latin. Of course, Latin has aspect too, but everything fits very neatly into a three way grid of past - present - future tenses whereas English only can when contorted. We have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect. After that, you get into the wonderful world of phrasal verbs, adverbial verbs compound verbs and so forth.

I found it much more sensible to view the basic English verb -- sing / sang, walk / walked, write / wrote -- forms as habitual aspect / past tense rather than present tense / past tense, since in English, the "present" tense is handled by the progressive aspect, not the "simple present" as that is really a timeless form. "I eat beets" doesn't imply I have a big old bowl of beets in front me right now whereas "I am eating beets" does. "I write stories" doesn't mean I have pen in hand. I can honestly say "I walk" even though I'm presently sitting down.

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » Mon 02 Feb 2015, 00:08

I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)

I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 02 Feb 2015, 02:58

elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Tue 03 Feb 2015, 15:59

Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Prinsessa » Tue 03 Feb 2015, 21:59

eldin raigmore wrote:
elemtilas wrote:…. English …. have two tenses: past and non-past -- everything else is really aspect.
I disagree. English's "future tens" is more of a mood (or a collection of moods) than an aspect.
There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 07:55

Prinsessa wrote:There's just been/is going on a big discussion about that in the conversation/spam thread, so let's not have it here as well. Do chime in in the other thread.
I just read that earlier today and decided to let it be.
If my posts should be lifted out of this thread and put on that other thread then some moderator will do it eventually.
I have nothing else to post about it here, or there.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Bristel » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 20:36

atman wrote:
Bristel wrote:I really enjoyed these lessons, atman. Great job. :)
Thanks! [:)]
Bristel wrote:I hope to see a bit more about the other accent systems in PIE. That's one of the parts that always confused me.
I'm not making any promises, but if I have time...
Could probably use a verb section too, but I can glean a lot of info from the Wiki too.
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Fri 22 May 2015, 18:24

How do you ask questions in PIE?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Mon 25 May 2015, 18:01

HinGambleGoth wrote:How do you ask questions in PIE?
h1m̩m̩m̩... kʷód?

No, seriously: I don't know about special interrogative constructions reconstructed for PIE, but Latin and Sanskrit had optional interrogative clitics (ne...) that may be ancient. Does anyone have anything more to say?
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Ephraim » Mon 25 May 2015, 22:41

For content questions (wh-questions), there are of course all the interrogative words beginning with *kʷ–.

But it's much harder to know what strategy PIE used to form yes–no-questions. Clackson gives four possible hypotheses (and notes that they are not mutually exclusive):
A) Sentence intonation and with no additional changes. This strategy is widely attested in IE languages and is found in Vedic and Hittite for example. Of course, we have no or very limited information about the intonation in the ancient languages.
B) An interrogative particle *nu found in Greek and Vedic. In Hittite, the same particle is widely used in non-interrogative sentences, however.
C) An interrogative particle *–ne perhaps originally the same as the negative particle *ne. Lehmann proposed this based on Latin and typological tendencies in OV-languages but Clackson does not find the arguments convincing.
D) Disjunctive questions of the type A-not-A, something like "verb *ne verb". Such constructions are primarily found in Sanskrit but the Latin questions with –ne could be explained through ellipsis of the first verb.

See Clackson, James (2007) "Indo-European Linguistics – An Introduction", p 159 ff.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Tue 26 May 2015, 10:54

Thank you! [:)]
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