Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Egerius » Sun 20 Jul 2014, 22:35

I thought this thread was quite interesting until someone came up with this:
HinGambleGoth wrote:Image
and Arians.
20th of July is a special day in Germany, since Stauffenberg wanted to assassinate the Beast. And then someone says "Arians". Thanks for destroying the spirit.
:wat: [:|] [:(] [:'(]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Sun 20 Jul 2014, 22:58

Ok, this is sliding off-topic, I just mentioned a few crack-pot theories, that reminds me of the guy in Ancient Aliens. It was a joke. There have been many wacky theories over the years, and the Nazis exploited that frequently.

The movie Prometheus expanded on this silliness.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Salmoneus » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 02:13

Egerius wrote: 20th of July is a special day in Germany, since Stauffenberg wanted to assassinate the Beast. And then someone says "Arians". Thanks for destroying the spirit.
:wat: [:|] [:(] [:'(]
...first off, nobody was talking about Arians. They were talking about Aryans. These are two entirely distinct things. Second, if you insist on being upset by the word 'Aryan', you should probably avoid threads about PIE, given that the 'I' in that is a reference to the Aryans. More generally, if you get upset by random discussions of ancient history, I suggest you grow a thicker skin.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 03:37

paúsete h₁méǵʰio agos h₁moi, h₁s-ih₁-té swe wesewes
let.go-IMPTV.2PL 1SG.DAT sin-ACC.PL 1SG.GEN | be<OPT>2PL ADV good-PL.NOM

[:$]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 05:38

jūz sindi wilþijai hundōs!
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 18:40

HinGambleGoth wrote:Ok, this is sliding off-topic, I just mentioned a few crack-pot theories, that reminds me of the guy in Ancient Aliens. It was a joke. There have been many wacky theories over the years, and the Nazis exploited that frequently.
Don't worry! IE studies do seem to attract weird theories and crackpot "researchers" like a magnet.
Lambuzhao wrote:http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/J ... europ.html
What a rarity! A translation of the Lord's prayer into 19th century-spec PIE, no less.
HinGambleGoth wrote:jūz sindi wilþijai hundōs!
kʷód?
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Egerius » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 21:16

Salmoneus wrote: ...first off, nobody was talking about Arians. They were talking about Aryans. These are two entirely distinct things. Second, if you insist on being upset by the word 'Aryan', you should probably avoid threads about PIE, given that the 'I' in that is a reference to the Aryans. More generally, if you get upset by random discussions of ancient history, I suggest you grow a thicker skin.
(Emphasis by me)

Oops, I confused two spellings, but it was late already.

Now back to the topic:
  • I. Atman, what do you think about the PIE glottal hypothesis.
    II. Do you have a piece of advice on how to start a PIE-inspired a priori conlang? (It's already Kentum)
    III. Does the word *kāweh1n-s adhere to PIE phonotactics and do you have any other thoughts on it? It means dog.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Mon 21 Jul 2014, 23:44

atman wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:jūz sindi wilþijai hundōs!
kʷód?
Hwat?

No, enough movie references for now.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 22 Jul 2014, 02:22

yuHs h₁s-té n̥demh₂n̥tés ḱʷónes.
2PL.NOM be-PRS.2PL NEG=tame-PRS.PTCP.M.PL dog-NOM.PL
:?: [o.O]


kʷis sékʷt todí?
INTERR.ANIM.NOM.SG say-SECOND.3SG DEM.N.ACC=DEIX
[O.o] :?: :!:
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by DesEsseintes » Tue 22 Jul 2014, 02:24

What happened to this thread, people!?
[O.O]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 22 Jul 2014, 02:27

ne wóydh₂e, dedwóyh₂e
Idk, I'm sorry to say.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 22 Jul 2014, 02:44

ewélom wydh₂nóm kʷis sékʷt « yuHs h1s-té n̥demh₂n̥tés ḱʷónes».
want<2ND>1SG know<NMLZ> INTERR.ANIM.NOM.SG say<2ND>3SG 2PL.NOM be-PRS.2PL NEG=tame-PRS.PTCP.NOM.PL dog-NOM.PL
Spoiler:
IMHO that cannot be right- kʷis feels like it needs to be GEN; maybe sékʷt ought to be a PTCP? I'm using a -nom neuter verbal noun (like :lat: granum, donum) for "to know"
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Tue 22 Jul 2014, 19:25

Lambuzhao wrote:...ḱʷónes...
"dogs" in PIE is (should be) ḱwónes. A palatalized and at the same time labialized velar stop would presumably be too much even for Proto-Indo-Europeans [;)]
Egerius wrote: Now back to the topic:
I. Atman, what do you think about the PIE glottal hypothesis.
II. Do you have a piece of advice on how to start a PIE-inspired a priori conlang? (It's already Kentum)
III. Does the word *kāweh1n-s adhere to PIE phonotactics and do you have any other thoughts on it? It means dog.
I. I think it's untenable for Late PIE, and it's not just my personal opinion: it's the consensus view among real Indo-Europeanists. But if we talk about earlier stages of PIE, then maybe...

II. No. I have zero experience with a priori conlangs (and not much experience with a posteriori ones either, see my countless backtrackings, major redesigns and assorted frequent changes to Atlántiqa). But if your project is inspired by PIE, take into account that PIE was neither centum nor satem (obviously!)

III. I don't know [:)] . But personally I'd find something like **kéh₂wens more appropriate, more Yamna style...
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by eldin raigmore » Thu 24 Jul 2014, 00:14

atman wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:...ḱʷónes...
"dogs" in PIE is (should be) ḱwónes. A palatalized and at the same time labialized velar stop would presumably be too much even for Proto-Indo-Europeans [;)]
The [ḱʷ] is both glottalized and labialized. (Palatalised would be indicated by a ʲ . And maybe you're right about velar stops, but some sounds can be and in some natlangs are both palatalized and labialized at the same time; Akan appears to be an example.)
The reconstructed form really is *[ḱʷónes], as Lambuzhao said, where the "apostrophes" represent glottalization rather than palatalization.
And apparently the speakers of the descendant languages agreed with you that ḱʷ was "too much", and revised it to either kʷ or ḱ , depending.
But there are plenty of living natlangs that have a glottalized labialized consonant; indeed several (e.g. kʷaḱʷala) have two and some (e.g. Archi, Lak, Rutul, Tlingit) have more than two.
Twenty-five in UPSID's database have [ḱʷ] and twelve have [q́ʷ].
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 24 Jul 2014, 05:39

gʷeréueh1i, Eldiné
congratulate<OBJECTIVE>PRS.2SG <Eldin>VOC.SG

or is it

gʷeréumi te
congratulate<SUBJECTIVE>PRS.1SG 2SG.ACC
:?: [/spoiler]

≈ 'Thanks'
:?: [/spoiler]
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Thu 24 Jul 2014, 12:59

eldin raigmore wrote:The [ḱʷ] is both glottalized and labialized. (Palatalised would be indicated by a ʲ . And maybe you're right about velar stops, but some sounds can be and in some natlangs are both palatalized and labialized at the same time; Akan appears to be an example.)
The reconstructed form really is *[ḱʷónes], as Lambuzhao said, where the "apostrophes" represent glottalization rather than palatalization.
And apparently the speakers of the descendant languages agreed with you that ḱʷ was "too much", and revised it to either kʷ or ḱ , depending.
But there are plenty of living natlangs that have a glottalized labialized consonant; indeed several (e.g. kʷaḱʷala) have two and some (e.g. Archi, Lak, Rutul, Tlingit) have more than two.
Twenty-five in UPSID's database have [ḱʷ] and twelve have [q́ʷ].
Time for a little reality check.

Remember that PIE has its own romanization, it doesn't use IPA or something. Palatalized velars aka palatovelars aka front velars aka palatals in PIE orthography are indicated with an accent (ḱ and its plain voiced and breathy voiced siblings). These stops are never reconstructed with labialized counterparts (unlike the plain velar aka back velar stops).

Basically ḱʷ doesn't exist in any reconstruction of PIE, and telling us what such a phoneme became in the descendants is ridiculous. In reality, "dogs" is reconstructed as ḱwónes, with a cluster of a palatalized velar stop and a labiovelar approximant at the beginning. Such clusters contrasted with simple labialized stops in PIE at the "plain velar" point of articulation, however.

Bottomline: you made so many mistakes you'll have to sacrifice a cow to the ancient IE gods, or else... [;)]
Lambuzhao wrote:gʷeréueh1i, Eldiné
congratulate<OBJECTIVE>PRS.2SG <Eldin>VOC.SG

or is it

gʷeréumi te
congratulate<SUBJECTIVE>PRS.1SG 2SG.ACC
:?: [/spoiler]

≈ 'Thanks'
:?: [/spoiler]
PIE is/was SOV. So te gʷeréwmi, if gʷeréwmi is even a thing.

You can get away with sacrificing a little lamb [;)], we're friends.


Now they are become Eldin and Lambu, destroyers of words (cit.)
Երկնէր երկին, երկնէր երկիր, երկնէր և ծովն ծիրանի.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by sangi39 » Thu 24 Jul 2014, 15:38

I'm with atman on this. The acute accent (not an apostrophe) over the <k> indicates what is generally reconstructed as palatalisation. I think, IIRC, that this representation was chosen because the exact phonetic details of the distinction between the plain velars and palatalised velars wasn't really known (i.e. were they palatal plosives, post-alveolar affricates, palatalised velars, etc.) and the existence of the latter was controversial.

Secondly, if it were an apostrophe representing glottalisation, then the traditional counterpart would be gʷónes, which isn't the case since it doesn't yield, for example, Greek **bónes or Latin **vanes.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 24 Jul 2014, 16:45

atman wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:The [ḱʷ] is both glottalized and labialized. (Palatalised would be indicated by a ʲ . And maybe you're right about velar stops, but some sounds can be and in some natlangs are both palatalized and labialized at the same time; Akan appears to be an example.)
The reconstructed form really is *[ḱʷónes], as Lambuzhao said, where the "apostrophes" represent glottalization rather than palatalization.
And apparently the speakers of the descendant languages agreed with you that ḱʷ was "too much", and revised it to either kʷ or ḱ , depending.
But there are plenty of living natlangs that have a glottalized labialized consonant; indeed several (e.g. kʷaḱʷala) have two and some (e.g. Archi, Lak, Rutul, Tlingit) have more than two.
Twenty-five in UPSID's database have [ḱʷ] and twelve have [q́ʷ].
Time for a little reality check.

Remember that PIE has its own romanization, it doesn't use IPA or something. Palatalized velars aka palatovelars aka front velars aka palatals in PIE orthography are indicated with an accent (ḱ and its plain voiced and breathy voiced siblings). These stops are never reconstructed with labialized counterparts (unlike the plain velar aka back velar stops).

Basically ḱʷ doesn't exist in any reconstruction of PIE, and telling us what such a phoneme became in the descendants is ridiculous. In reality, "dogs" is reconstructed as ḱwónes, with a cluster of a palatalized velar stop and a labiovelar approximant at the beginning. Such clusters contrasted with simple labialized stops in PIE at the "plain velar" point of articulation, however.

Bottomline: you made so many mistakes you'll have to sacrifice a cow to the ancient IE gods, or else... [;)]
Lambuzhao wrote:gʷeréueh1i, Eldiné
congratulate<OBJECTIVE>PRS.2SG <Eldin>VOC.SG

or is it

gʷeréumi te
congratulate<SUBJECTIVE>PRS.1SG 2SG.ACC
:?: [/spoiler]

≈ 'Thanks'
:?: [/spoiler]
PIE is/was SOV. So te gʷeréwmi, if gʷeréwmi is even a thing.
SOV - D'oh! But, according to Verbix, it is such a thing. What to do about *gwer(u)? Use *gar instead? Should I use Medio-Passive Voice?


How does Objective work?
Help!

Now they are become Eldin and Lambu, destroyers of words (cit.)
[:'(] I don't wanna be a Destroyer of Worlds, I don't wanna be a Destroyer of Worlds...

Image
You can get away with sacrificing a little lamb [;)], we're friends.
http://thehasbeenhymn.files.wordpress.c ... b-lamb.jpg
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by atman » Fri 25 Jul 2014, 12:10

Lambuzhao wrote:Quote:
You can get away with sacrificing a little lamb , we're friends.


http://thehasbeenhymn.files.wordpress.c ... b-lamb.jpg
Very good. They always tell us we must make sacrifices in life...

Now we (and They [;)] ) are waiting for Eldin's cow [:)] .

Lambuzhao wrote: SOV - D'oh! But, according to Verbix, it is such a thing. What to do about *gwer(u)? Use *gar instead? Should I use Medio-Passive Voice?
I found a root gʷérH- "to praise" which should be what you were looking for. It inflects as a nasal-infixed present in Vedic Sanskrit.
If we assume it did the same in PIE, and that the laryngeal was h₁, we could say that "I praise" could have been gʷr̩néh₁mi.

I'd never haerd of subjective and objective conjugations in PIE. Looking them up, I found out they are reconstructed for Proto-Uralic, and that they could be cognates to the familiar thematic and athematic conjugations of PIE. That is, if Indo-European and Uralic are related at all, which is totally unproven (for now).
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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Post by HinGambleGoth » Sat 26 Jul 2014, 14:36

In Swedish we have.

Bära: carry, bear
Barn: child
Boren: born
Bår: stretcher
börda: burden.

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