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Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sat 26 Jul 2014, 17:05
by Lambuzhao
atman wrote: I found a root gʷérH- "to praise" which should be what you were looking for. It inflects as a nasal-infixed present in Vedic Sanskrit.
If we assume it did the same in PIE, and that the laryngeal was h₁, we could say that "I praise" could have been gʷr̩néh₁mi.

I'd never haerd of subjective and objective conjugations in PIE. Looking them up, I found out they are reconstructed for Proto-Uralic, and that they could be cognates to the familiar thematic and athematic conjugations of PIE. That is, if Indo-European and Uralic are related at all, which is totally unproven (for now).
h₁eh₁tmén h₁sh₂-énkʷe, uh₁wé gʷr̩néh₁mi!
<Atman>VOC <Sangi>VOC=CNJ, 2DU.ACC praise<PRS>1SG

Thanks, Atman & Sangi!
Spoiler:
Ha! 'Spirit' and 'Blood' +1

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sat 26 Jul 2014, 17:22
by Lambuzhao
atman wrote: Now we (and They [;)] ) are waiting for Eldin's cow [:)] .
bherəg̑s gʷous?
brown-NOM cow-NOM

Image

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sun 27 Jul 2014, 04:48
by HinGambleGoth
Image

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 16:27
by atman
HinGambleGoth wrote:Image
Who is that dʰǵʰm̥mō (man)? He looks like someone I met back when... I mean it's been a long time... [;)]
Lambuzhao wrote:bherəg̑s gʷous?
brown-NOM cow-NOM
sm̩éh₂ gʷṓws!(or sm̩ós gʷṓws if the cow is male [;)] )
Any cow! (When one is making an asado one doesn't care about the color of the cow after all [:)] )
Lambuzhao wrote:uh₁wé
My sources have uh₃wé for the strong stressed form, and woh₃ for the unstressed form (presumably this is the one to be used here). Anyway [tick] for remembering to use the dual!

A question: when I'll find some time to continue this guide to PIE and its speakers, what topics would you like to read about?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 18:34
by Lambuzhao
HinGambleGoth wrote:Image

k'wainom regʷos; k'wainá nókʷt
deep.blue-N.VOC.SG darkness-VOC.SG | deep.blue-F.VOC.SG night-VOC
Deep blue darkness; deep blue night
Spoiler:
Kind of a double backhoe/calquing of Kalaratri. Oh, Mola Ram, you naughty boy!

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Wed 30 Jul 2014, 18:36
by Lambuzhao
atman wrote:
A question: when I'll find some time to continue this guide to PIE and its speakers, what topics would you like to read about?
Hmmm... correlative adverbs, prepositions, prepositional phrases. Do any PIE PRPs
reconstruct to being postclitic, like :lat: vobiscum, tecum?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Thu 31 Jul 2014, 12:01
by eldin raigmore
atman wrote:A question: when I'll find some time to continue this guide to PIE and its speakers, what topics would you like to read about?
Tocharian and Hittite.

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Fri 01 Aug 2014, 18:51
by atman
Lambuzhao wrote:k'wainom regʷos; k'wainá nókʷt
deep.blue-N.VOC.SG darkness-VOC.SG | deep.blue-F.VOC.SG night-VOC
Deep blue darkness; deep blue night
kʷr̩snóm h₁régʷos; kʷr̩snéh₂ nókʷt!

I'd rather use kʷr̩snóm "dark, black", I can't find ḱwaynós anywhere.

The laryngeal at the beginning of h₁régʷos is very important: laryngeals in this position (word-initial before a sonorant) were lost in every daughter language bar Greek and Armenian, that turned them into vowels (Grk. érebos "darkness", Classical Arm. erek "evening", but Sanskrit rájas "darkness, dimness"). More exactly, h1 became e, h2 became a and h3 became o in Greek and Armenian, and this is one of the many common features that point to an especially close relationship between these two branches.
Lambuzhao wrote:Hmmm... correlative adverbs, prepositions, prepositional phrases. Do any PIE PRPs
reconstruct to being postclitic, like vobiscum, tecum?
In general, PIE is reconstructed as a postpositional language, where most adpositions that we know as prepositions were actually put after their noun phrase. This situation is preserved in Indo-Iranian, Tocharian, sometimes in Homeric/Old Ionic Greek...

Also related is the use of adpositions between an adjective and a noun in Latin magna cum cura, multos per annos and so on. Ancient Greek too had this kind of structures at times.

(And the speakers of :con: Old Atlántiqa generalized this pattern and got several new cases out of the Hellenic equivalents of *magnacum curacum, *multosper annosper and so on, basically making the nouns agree with the adjectives, after reinterpreting the adposition as part of an ending).
eldin raigmore wrote: atman wrote:
A question: when I'll find some time to continue this guide to PIE and its speakers, what topics would you like to read about?

Tocharian and Hittite.
What would you like to know about these two? Do you have specific questions that an amateur IEist could attempt to answer?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Fri 01 Aug 2014, 19:33
by Lambuzhao
Check this for k'wa(I)n

http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config

Prolly a loanword, though, huh?

H1regwos :roll:
-> Gracias de siempre

PIE postpositions!
Wow. A source online to read MOAR, porfa?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Fri 01 Aug 2014, 19:52
by Lambuzhao
Ooh, I found this
http://www.phil.muni.cz/linguistica/art ... la-001.pdf

So, PIE had pre-verbs (?) and postpositions.
well, shut my mouth! [:x]

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sun 03 Aug 2014, 17:18
by atman
Lambuzhao wrote:http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
Well, the info on that site is... how to say it politely... not very reliable and somewhat out of date [;)] [>_<]

Lots of other online resources are like that unfortunately.

But...in one of my next posts I'll try to list quality sites about IE comparative/historical linguistics.
Lambuzhao wrote:PIE postpositions!
Wow. A source online to read MOAR, porfa?
Search this book here:

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ ... ies00.html

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sun 31 Aug 2014, 04:11
by HinGambleGoth
In old Germanic languages, neuter Words always seem to have "weaker" declensions than other genders, this also applies to some extent to feminine, Masculine seems to have less syncretism.

Is this mainly due to changes in Germanic or were there similar patterns already in PIE? is it just random or some leftover? is it connected to the development of the gender system in the first place?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Mon 01 Sep 2014, 19:05
by atman
The neuter declension already had more syncretism in PIE, look at these:

THEMATIC -o- NOUNS (MASCULINE)

example word: nisdós (nest)

Singular <> Dual <> Plural
Nom: nisdós <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóes
Voc: nisdé <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóes
Acc: nisdóm <> nisdóh₁ <> nisdóns
Gen: nisdósyo <> …......... <> nisdóh₁om
Dat: nisdóey <> …......... <> nisdóybʰos
Instr: nisdóh₁ <> ….......... <> nisdṓys
Abl: nisdéad <> …......... <> nisdóybʰos
Loc: nisdéy <> …......... <> nisdóysu

versus this:

THEMATIC -o- NOUNS (NEUTER)

example word: yugóm (yoke)

Singular <> Dual <> Plural
Nom: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Voc: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Acc: yugóm <> yugóyh₁ <> yugéh₂
Gen: yugósyo <> …......... <> yugóh₁om
Dat: yugóey <> …......... <> yugóybʰos
Instr: yugóh₁ <> ….......... <> yugṓys
Abl: yugéad <> …......... <> yugóybʰos
Loc: yugéy <> …......... <> yugóysu

Noinative, vocative and accusative neuters are always identical in PIE (and its immediate daughter languages).

For far more information on this and on the specific Germanic developments you could try this book:

http://books.google.it/books/about/From ... edir_esc=y

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Tue 09 Sep 2014, 03:07
by HinGambleGoth
Did certain prepositions govern certain verbs and cases already in PIE, or is that later?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Tue 09 Sep 2014, 22:19
by atman
It seems so (if a verb or an adjective had to be used with a particular case in one early-attested language, it was usually used the same way in the other early-attested languages), even though PIE had adverbs that doubled as postpositions, not prepositions.

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Sun 26 Oct 2014, 04:14
by tezcatlip0ca
Are you still there?

How are athematic nominals like h3rēgs and nokwts declined?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Mon 27 Oct 2014, 05:21
by atman
I'm still "here", I just don't have time to make new lessons [:)]

The nouns you want to know about were declined more or less like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo ... s#Examples

nókʷts "night" is in the first column; we have an acrostatic root noun. Acrostatic is the Indo-Europenanist's way to say that the accent stays on the root throughout the declension. Ablaut grade is o in the direct cases and e in the oblique ones.

h₃rḗǵs "king, ruler" is declined like mḗh₁n̥s, which is featured in the second column. It's another acrostatic root noun, where the accent is always on the root. But this is a Narten noun: this sub-class features lengthened e-grade in the direct cases and normal e-grade on the obliques, as you can see.

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Fri 21 Nov 2014, 22:22
by HinGambleGoth
Whatever happened to all those final nasals? they seem to mostly be reflected as nasal vowels, in Latin, Proto-Germanic and Old church Slavonic, maybe the final -m and -n were just reflected as nasalization quite early on?

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Mon 24 Nov 2014, 13:16
by atman
HinGambleGoth wrote:Whatever happened to all those final nasals? they seem to mostly be reflected as nasal vowels, in Latin, Proto-Germanic and Old church Slavonic, maybe the final -m and -n were just reflected as nasalization quite early on?
Well, if I remember right (and I may not [;)] ) the transformation of final nasals into nasal vowels in Latin is dated to around the classical period (first century BC), meaning that Latin had full nasals before that. There is direct inscriptional evidence for this dating: some people started to forget to write final "m" as soon as their spoken language lost it, so we can recover when this change happened. Nobody forgot to write them before, suggesting that the nasals were full consonants before.

Greek kept them intact even longer, and it seems to me (but look things up yourself, don't take my word for it) that nasalization of vowels was discussed as happening in relation to the Law of Open Syllables in Slavic, so OCS had probably lost the final nasals recently (opening syllables that were closed before).

Re: Spoken Yamna Style: Atman's guide to Proto-Indo-European

Posted: Tue 25 Nov 2014, 16:52
by Chagen
IIRC Sihler's New Comparative Grammar of Greek and Latin states that Latin final /m/ was pronounced as some kind of nasalized /w/ dropped in casual/informal speech, since it makes position at the end of a line in poetry but does not block elision. The Roman grammarians even had a term, "mytacism" whose true meaning is obscure but appears to be the mistake of pronouncing final /m/ as...an actual [m].