日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

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clawgrip
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Re: Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Wed 06 Nov 2013, 02:24

I've been very busy lately, but I've finally managed to get a new lesson up.

Lesson 10: Pronouns and personal titles
You’re probably wondering how I could get through nine lessons and still not have taught something as basic as pronouns. To tell you the truth, this was by no means an oversight. I intentionally left pronouns out as long as I could because I wanted you to get used to seeing and making sentences without pronouns.

The reason for this is that a major mistake I see beginners making is complete overuse of pronouns. Japanese actively avoids pronouns, and they will almost always be dropped if the meaning can be understood from context, particularly so in more polite registers, as pronouns are considered direct and emphatic. Nevertheless, they are a fairly basic (and complicated) element of the language, so I can’t avoid them forever. So let’s get started!

The standard neutral pronouns that are typically taught first to Japanese language learners are as follows:
watashi "I"
あなた/貴方 anàta "you"
kàre "he"
彼女 kànojo "she"

Watashi and anàta can be pluralized with the suffix ~たち –tachi, while kàre and kànojo can be pluralized with the suffix ~ら –ra. Kànojora is pretty rare though.

Japanese pronouns may be unusual for the learner. They can only be considered pronouns semantically; grammatically they are basically indistinguishable from regular nouns (notably, they can very naturally take relative clauses). As such, they can easily be replaced with other words or even be used as non-pronominal nouns. This has perhaps three main effects in the modern language:

1. several pronouns exist for the same grammatical person and differ in use based on social situations and relationships;
2. nouns such as titles and proper nouns can often be used pronominally, blurring the line between pronoun and noun (this is a major way that Japanese avoids pronouns);
3. certain pronouns can be used non-pronominally.

Informal pronouns
Some of the informal pronouns can can make people angry or annoyed if you use them improperly. Certainly Japanese people will make exceptions for non-native speakers, but it can still make people uncomfortable, so I don’t recommend using them. However, I will list a few common ones anyway.

ore – informal 1st person male pronoun. It’s only suitable for friends or those of a lower social status. It is frank and sometimes can be taken as confident or rude depending on the situation, so even at work bosses may refrain from using it, using bòku or watashi instead.
bòku – informal 1st person male pronoun. More polite than ore without the boastfulness. In some informal situations it could be considered unassertive. It also exists in a kind of murky pronoun-or-not-pronoun state in that it can be used in the 3rd person to refer affectionately to young boys.
あたし atashi – informal 1st person female pronoun. abbreviation of watashi.
EDIT (how did I forget to include this one?)kimi: informal 2nd person pronoun. It's only used from superiors to subordinates, or among friends and family.
お前 omae – informal 2nd person pronoun. It’s kind of disparaging and can make people angry. It is often used in a kind of jocular way though. If I called my wife omae I would probably be in trouble.

Formal pronouns
watakushi – formal 1st person pronoun used only to clear superiors in relatively formal contexts, in speeches, and so on. It is written identically to watashi.
我々 wareware – humble 1st person plural pronoun used in formal situations. Often associated with a spokesperson for some group. What kinds to my mind is someone from the police speaking to a reporter, or aliens announcing their demands.

There are plenty of others, some rude, some formal, some archaic, some regional. I’m not going to get into them because you probably won’t come across them anyway.

Some common replacement pronouns include お客さん (おきゃくさん) okyakusan “customer”, 先生 (せんせい) sensèi “doctor/teacher/etc.”, お姉さん (おねえさん) onḕsan “older sister” and other family terms.

Some other unusual or interesting pronouns include 自分 じぶん jibun “self” which can be used as a first, second, or third person pronoun, depending on context, with the intention of singling that person out for one reason or another, and 内 うち uchi “inside” which is used to mean one’s own family.

As I said, the line is blurred here, so it is sometimes arguable what is a pronoun and what isn’t.

Second person pronouns are also often replaced by proper nouns. It may sound exceedingly strange in English to say “Does John want anything to eat?” when directly addressing John, but this is normal in Japanese. Children also typically refer to themselves by their own names, though this is kind of associated with children and thus considered childish, so people usually stop doing it when they get older, unless they’re trying to be cute (though this sounds kind of obnoxious to me).

Personal titles
Japanese makes fairly extensive use of personal honorifics. The most common one is the neutral honorific ~さん –san, which I assume you have heard before, but there are a number of others. Here’s a list of common ones:

~さん -san - can be used for people you have never met or for acquaintances you are not especially close with. You may hear children affectionately append this title to practically anything, such as animals, foods, etc.
~様 –sama – formal honorific used particularly for customers or guests in honorific language. Never applied to oneself or members of one's in-group
~くん/君 –kun – informal title used for boys. Can also be heard used for adults by people in a clear position of authority.
~ちゃん –chan – childish corruption of –san. Used for children, especially but not exclusively girls. Sometimes used for parents or grandparents as well, as well as anything to which one displays close affection, such as pets.
Both –kun and –chan are common as a terms of endearment.
~氏 –shi – impersonal and respectful title for people one does not know. Common in newscasts, in books when referring to respected people such as other authors, etc.
~先生 -sensèi – used for teachers, doctors, or other learned people.
~博士 -hakase – used for people with a very high degree of learning, generally with a doctorate in something or other. Scientists and whatnot. I’ve never found anyone to use this one with.

For people you don’t know, it’s also possible to refer to someone by their job. This may be a second or third person reference.
大家、大家さん ṑya, ṑya-san – landlord
看護師、看護師さん kangòshi, kangòshi-san – nurse
大工、大工さん dàiku, dàiku-san – carpenter

While in English it may sound absurd for an adult to say, "I spoke to Mr. landlord," this is quite normal in Japanese.

Police officers, normally 警察官 keisatsùkan, have a special word, お巡りさん omawari-san, but unlike the others, this is rather cute or affectionate.

You can also sometimes apply -san to a store to indicate a person who works there:

肉屋 nikùya – butcher shop
肉屋さん nikùya-san – butcher
八百屋 yaoya – greengrocer (place)
八百屋さん yaoya-san greengrocer (person)

Confusingly, the word with –san applied can still refer to the store itself, similar to how we might say "the butcher" in English to refer to the store. In fact, the ending ~屋さん –ya-san can be applied informally to a wide variety of businesses.

ラーメン屋さん rā̀men’ya-san – ramen shop
電気屋さん denkiya-san – electronics shop
不動産屋さん fudōsan’ya-san – real-estate agency
ペット屋さん pèttoya-san – pet shop

No activities for this one.
Last edited by clawgrip on Sat 11 Oct 2014, 15:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Chagen
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Re: Learn Japanese

Post by Chagen » Fri 15 Nov 2013, 22:29

Yay, more lessons.

I just used this and Tae Kim's phone app to sort of make a title for a new story of mine. The short version is that I'm writing a story that's sort of a loving homage to Light Novels, and we all know how they have incredibly long titles, and thus I came up with a long title along those lines. This thread helped me whenever I was unsure about a few things, so thanks for it!

By the way, I have a few questions:

1: As far as I can tell, noboru (上る) is a consonant-stem verb that can mean "to be promoted". Would "[NOUN] ni noboru" mean "get promoted into a(n) [NOUN]"? I know that naru ("to become") uses "ni" for what the subject becomes so I'm assuming it works the same way.

2: Does soshite mean "and now", as in "I dropped the ball and now he's angry at me?" The first part of my title literally translates to "I'm an Absolutely Generic Person And Now If I Don't Get Promoted Into a Hero..."
Nūdenku waga honji ma naku honyasi ne ika-ika ichamase!
female-appearance=despite boy-voice=PAT hold boy-youth=TOP very be.cute-3PL
Honyasi zō honyasi ma naidasu.
boy-youth=AGT boy-youth=PAT love.romantically-3S
clawgrip
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Re: Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Sat 16 Nov 2013, 06:31

のぼる noboru basically means "climb" (usually written 登る in this case) but it has many other uses. It can mean ascend (昇る), but it can be used to indicate moving to a larger or superior position. This includes being promoted, but also includes, going into the city. 上り電車 nobori-densha means a train bound for the city. It marks the destination with に ni, as you say, except when you really mean climb; in this case you use it transitively and mark the thing you are climbing as the direct object 山を登る yama o noboru "climb a mountain".

そして Soshite can be used like "and now" but I feel like learners tend to overuse it somewhat. Japanese has some adverbial forms (that I plan to teach eventually) that allow clauses to be linked smoothly.
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Ceresz
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Re: Learn Japanese

Post by Ceresz » Fri 22 Nov 2013, 18:32

Just dropping by to deliver some exercises and to tell you that these lessons rock. I am eagerly awaiting the next lesson. In the meantime I will be sure to study kanji/vocabulary and really make them stick, because I had to run back and forth between the various vocabulary lists for a few words I haven't really gotten used to.

I have a feeling I've been overusing へ, but I remember seeing that へ implies general direction (like going south) rather than a specific destination (like going to, say, Tokyo). And I'm still not sure when to use は over が, so I've been kinda spamming が unless you specified otherwise. I remember reading somewhere that が emphasizes what precedes it, while は does the opposite. I don't know how much there is to that, but I figure I'll just have to make a few mistakes until I get a hang of it.

Oh, and by the way, is it true that 彼 and 彼女 generally mean 'boyfriend/girlfriend' in speech? Also, isn't あなた used by wives to address their husbands or something like that?

Anyway, great lessons! Oh, and here are a few helpful links, for anyone who's interested:

Dictionaries
Jisho
Tangorin

Kanji tools
Rikaichan - for use with Firefox, Thunderbird and Seamonkey.
Rikaikun - the Chrome version of Rikaichan.

Lesson 6
Spoiler:
人が町を見る。
犬が町へ歩く。
人が山から町へ行く。
人の犬が山へ歩く。
犬を見る。
山の犬が町へ来る。
Lesson 7
Spoiler:
#1
言わない
受けない
踊らない

#2
分かった
落ちた
切った

#3
言わなかった
死ななかった
読まなかった

#4
The dog entered the school.
The book is in the school.
The boy came from the mountain.

#5
りんごを食べた。
男の子は学校に行かなかった。
町へ泳いだ。
人が並んだ。
犬が死んだ。
男の子が学校から山へ歩いた。
犬が本を読まない。
Lesson 8
Spoiler:
男の子が手紙を書いた。
切手をコンビニで買った。
女の子が手紙を出さなかった。
お母さんが郵便局へ行く。
お母さんが手紙を出した。
新しい本が小さい。
古い本が大きかった。
おの池がきれいだ。
きれいな池が町に近い。
山が高い。
山が町から遠い。
Lesson 9
Spoiler:
#1
来ます
切ります
言います
見ます
します
話します
並びます

#2
(I) studied English in school.
(I) heard/listened/asked it at the post office.
The students listen properly to the teacher’s topic (that is, what he’s saying? In other words, they just listen to him?)
(I) study English next to/beside the pond.

#3
学生たちが大きい教室に入りました。(Yeah, okay, I kinda looked at your corrections for the ’ni’, but other than that it’s unchanged.)
学生たちが教室にいます。
教科書が教室にあります。
学生たちが座りました。
先生が教室で(学生たちに)数学を教えました。
学生たちが教科書で文章を買いました。
この小さい町が古い。
clawgrip
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Re: Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Tue 26 Nov 2013, 06:20

Ceresz wrote:Just dropping by to deliver some exercises and to tell you that these lessons rock. I am eagerly awaiting the next lesson. In the meantime I will be sure to study kanji/vocabulary and really make them stick, because I had to run back and forth between the various vocabulary lists for a few words I haven't really gotten used to.
Thanks. I have an idea for the next lesson and have written up a bunch of it. I just need some appropriate exercises.
I have a feeling I've been overusing へ, but I remember seeing that へ implies general direction (like going south) rather than a specific destination (like going to, say, Tokyo).
Yes, へ is much less common than に. I guess へ is used mostly when there is actual motion or is a real direction rather than something figurative. The beginning of a letters or note would generally use へ with the person's name though.
And I'm still not sure when to use は over が, so I've been kinda spamming が unless you specified otherwise. I remember reading somewhere that が emphasizes what precedes it, while は does the opposite. I don't know how much there is to that, but I figure I'll just have to make a few mistakes until I get a hang of it.
Making mistakes and muddling through with は and が is pretty much a requirement of learning Japanese. The difference between the two is distinct, but not easy to grasp or explain, as it represents a fundamental grammatical difference between English and Japanese structure.
Oh, and by the way, is it true that 彼 and 彼女 generally mean 'boyfriend/girlfriend' in speech? Also, isn't あなた used by wives to address their husbands or something like that?
The normal word for boyfriend is 彼氏 kàreshi. 彼 is an informal abbreviation of this. I get the impression this is used especially among women and less so among men. On the other hand, 彼女 can equally mean "she" or "girlfriend". あなた is sometimes used by wives to address husbands, though it depends on the individuals and is by no means a requirement. However, it is also the default word for "you". Still, as I said, there is little opportunity to use this word most of the time, since you will generally be using a person's name or title instead.
Anyway, great lessons! Oh, and here are a few helpful links, for anyone who's interested:

Dictionaries
Jisho
Tangorin

Kanji tools
Rikaichan - for use with Firefox, Thunderbird and Seamonkey.
Rikaikun - the Chrome version of Rikaichan.

Lesson 6
Spoiler:
人が町を見る。
犬が町へ歩く。
人が山から町へ行く。
人の犬が山へ歩く。
犬を見る。
山の犬が町へ来る。
all correct here

Lesson 7
Spoiler:
#1
言わない
受けない
踊らない
correct

#2
分かった
落ちた
切った
correct

#3
言わなかった
死ななかった
読まなかった
correct

#4
The dog entered the school.
The book is in the school. This is actually more like "There is a book in the school," but I haven't taught topics and definiteness yet.
The boy came from the mountain. Same as above, would be more likely to be "a boy".

#5
りんごを食べた。
男の子は学校に行かなかった。
町へ泳いだ。
人が並んだ。
犬が死んだ。
男の子が学校から山へ歩いた。
犬が本を読まない。 Should be は, but I haven't gotten into this yet.
Lesson 8
Spoiler:
男の子が手紙を書いた。
切手をコンビニで買った。 Not wrong, but more likely to be コンビニで切手を買った。
女の子が手紙を出さなかった。
お母さんが郵便局へ行く。
お母さんが手紙を出。 (will)
新しい本が小さい。
古い本が大きかった。
の池がきれいだ。
きれいな池が町に近い。
山が高い。
山が町から遠い。
Lesson 9
Spoiler:
#1
来ます
切ります
言います
見ます
します
話します
並びます
correct

#2
(I) studied English in school.
(I) heard/listened/asked it at the post office.
The students listen properly to the teacher’s topic (that is, what he’s saying? In other words, they just listen to him?) This is a pretty tricky one that uses a grammatical form I haven't taught yet but that I think it is still mostly intelligible (i.e. what exactly is happening with "先生の言うこと"). Probably the best translation is "The students listen carefully to what the teacher says."
(I) study English next to/beside the pond.

#3
学生たちが大きい教室に入りました。(Yeah, okay, I kinda looked at your corrections for the ’ni’, but other than that it’s unchanged.)
学生たちが教室にいます。
教科書が教室にあります。
学生たちが座りました。
先生が教室で(学生たちに)数学を教えました。
学生たちが教科書で文章を書きました
この小さい町が古い。
clawgrip
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Fri 22 Aug 2014, 02:49

At long last, I am posting an update.

Lesson 11: Adverbs and Adverbials
This lesson is all about adverbial forms. It’s important to note that this is not simply a class of words; it’s a very important and basic feature of the language that affects sentence structure, verb conjugation, and verb compounding. So let’s take a look.

Anyone following this thread probably noticed by now that I consistently refer to three verb-like word classes: regular verbs, verbal adjectives, and the copula. These three conjugate differently, but in many ways they have similar patterns of conjugation. All three of them have two distinct adverbial forms, and now we’re going to see just how they work and how they’re used.

I will refer to these two forms as (standard) adverbs and subordinating adverbials. I haven’t really seen them taught together this way (but maybe they do teach it this way; I don’t know much about how other people teach Japanese), so I don’t actually know if this is what people call them. Anyway, I noticed the correlation and it seems appropriate enough to teach them together.

Code: Select all

                          subordinating
               adverbs    adverbials
verbal adj     ~く       ~くて
               -ku        -kute
copula         ~に       ~で
               ni         de
verbs          ~Ø, ~i   ~て
               -Ø, -i     -te
Note: To create the adverbial form of ru-dropping verbs, simply drop the ru and you’re done. For u-dropping verbs, just replace -u with -i and you’re done.

Standard Adverbs
遅い osòi – slow
遅くosoku – slowly
静か(な)shìzuka (na) – quiet
静かに shìzuka ni – quietly

遅く歩く osoku arùku – to walk slowly
静かに歩く shìzuka ni arùku – to walk quietly

I think these forms are pretty easy to understand, because changing the base form to the standard adverb form it is essentially the same as adding –ly in English.

Likely you understand the need to make adverbs out of adjectives, and so it should be clear why we need standard adverb forms for both the verbal adjectives and the copula (for use with nominal adjectives). However, you may have trouble recognizing what the purpose of an adverbial form of a verb is. It’s actually used to form compound verbs, but we will not be discussing these just yet, so don't worry about it yet.

There are some other adverbs that don't take these forms, so we'll look at them first

Adverbs with to
A number of adverbs employ the multi-purpose particle to. These are very often informal words that describe manner, emotion, and so on. They are very often used with mimetic words. We already encountered one (chan to) in lesson 9.
きちんと kichin to - accurately; exactly; perfectly
ちゃんと chan to - properly; as expected; as one ought to
どんどんと dòndon to - with a pounding/booming sound
ダーッと dātto - with a swoosh; all the way
しーんと shiin to - silently; quietly

Adverbs with no adverbial ending
Much like English, several adverbs are not clearly marked as such, and simply appear next to the verb. A lot of onomatopoeic words are like this.
すぐ sùgu – immediately; right away; soon after; quickly
少し sukòshi - a little; slightly
いっぱい ippai - a lot
ゆっくり yukkùri (to) - slowly (to is optional with this word but usually omitted)
どんどん dòndon - proceed/happen rapidly and regularly
ごくごく gokùgoku - gulping quickly
たまたま tamatama - by chance; accidentally
ときどき tokidoki - sometimes; occasionally
所々 tokorodòkoro - here and there; in places
わいわい waiwai - noisily

There are some that act as adverbs that always or usually modify the verb する suru to create adjectives or verbs:
ゆったりした yuttari (to) shita - loose; calm; spacious (to is optional with this word but usually omitted)
うんざりする unzari suru - to be unable to tolerate something further; to have had it; to be beyond repair
すっきりする sukkiri suru - to be refreshed
すっきりした sukkiri shita - refreshing
ホッとする hotto suru - to be relieved; to be able to relax after being worried or anxious about something

Subordinating Adverbs
When a sentence contains a number of sequential clauses, the subordinate clauses can often be subordinated simply by using these adverbial forms, leaving the exact relation of the clauses to context (this means that when translating this form to English you will generally have to supply an appropriate conjunction that is not expressed in the Japanese). You’ll notice that the subordinating adverbials all contain the particle て te. This is a conjunctive particle that allows the clauses to be joined.

The verbal adjective forms are regular, and the copula has only the one form で de, but verbs form their subordinating adverbial form just the same as the past tense, but with て/で te/de in place of た/だ ta/da, so you’ll just need to remember the forms of the past tense and then work from those.

座る 座った 座って suwaru, suwatta, suwatte
話す 話した 話して hanàsu, hanàshita, hanàshite
泳ぐ 泳いだ 泳いで oyògu, oyòida, oyòide
習う 習った 習って naràu, naràtta, naràtte
見る 見た 見て mìru, mìta, mìte
etc.

Let’s combine these two short sentences into one to see how it works:
家に帰った。
Iè ni kàetta.
(I) went home.

すぐ寝た。
Sùgu neta.
(I) immediately went to sleep.

– house; home
すぐ sùgu – immediately; right away; soon after; quickly
帰る kàeru – to go home
寝る neru – to sleep; to fall asleep; to go to sleep

The first sentence is chronologically the first action to happen, so we will place this one in the adverbial form, and then combine it with the second sentence.

家に帰ってすぐ寝た。
Iè ni kàette sùgu neta.
I went home and immediately went to sleep.

Now let’s try one with a verbal adjective.

天気が悪かった。
Tènki ga warùkatta.
The weather was bad.

すぐ家に帰った。
Sùgu iè ni kàetta.
I went home right away.

天気 tènki – weather
悪い warùi – to be bad

We will place the verbal adjective in its subordinating adverbial form and combine it with the second sentence.
天気が悪くてすぐ家に帰った。
Tènki ga warùkute sùgu iè ni kàetta.
The weather was bad so I went home right away.

Now let’s try one with a nominal adjective:

試験が簡単だった。
Shikèn ga kantan datta.
The test was easy.

ホッとした。
Hotto shita.
(I) was relieved.

Just as in the last two examples, we will put the first clause in the adverbial form and combine them:
試験が簡単でホッとした。
Shikèn ga kantan de hotto shita.
The test was easy so (I) was relieved.

When adjectives take the subordinating adverbial form, they typically express a reason for the second clause, as you can see in the last two examples. This is not necessarily the case with regular verbs, as you can see in the first example.

When you combine two adjective phrases with an adverbial, they sometimes just both modify the same noun, e.g.
ハンバーグが大きくておいしい。
Hanbā̀gu ga ōkikute oishii.
The hamburger steak is big and delicious.

ハンバーグ hanbā̀gu - hamburger steak
おいしい oishìi - delicious; good-tasting

Formal and written language
Sometimes in more formal language, particularly written language, you will see the regular adverb forms used as subordinating adverbials. This means that 家に帰って iè ni kàette from our previous example becomes 家に帰り iè ni kàeri, and 天気が悪くて tènki ga warùkute becomes 天気が悪く tènki ga wàruku. The copula is different, because に ni can never subordinate a clause. Instead, the formal subordinating form of the copula is であり de ari. This is the adverb form of である de aru, which is the formal/written version of だ da (in fact da is simply a grammaticalized contraction of de aru).

Let’s add it to the chart to make it clearer:

Code: Select all

                          subordinating   formal subordinating
               adverbs    adverbials      adverbials
verbal adj     ~く        ~くて            ~く
               -ku        -kute           -ku
copula         ~に        ~で            ~であり
               ni         de              de ari
verbs          ~Ø, ~i    ~て            ~Ø, ~i
               -Ø, -i     -te             -Ø, -i
Making our example sentences a little more formal we get the following sentences (which admittedly are somewhat weird given the clash between formal language and overall informal content):

家に帰りすぐ寝た。
Iè ni kàeri sùgu neta.
I went home and immediately went to sleep.

天気が悪くすぐ家に帰った。
Tènki ga warùku sùgu iè ni kàetta.
The weather was bad so I went home right away.

試験が簡単でありホッとした。
Shikèn ga kantan de ari sùgu owatta.
As the test was easy, (I) finished quickly.

Two negative adverbials
The negative form of verbs has two different adverbial forms: ~なくて –nakute and ~ないで –naide. Like adjectives, the –nakute form tends to be used to show a reason for what follows. There are times when they overlap in meaning as well. I am not sure how to explain the exact difference.

食べないで寝た。
Tabènaide neta.
(I) went to bed without sleeping.

名前が知らなくてごめんなさい。
Namae ga shiranàkute gomen nasài.
(I’m) sorry I didn’t know (your) name.

This is honestly a little confusing and I'm sorry I can't provide a better explanation. I will consider it later on.

Alternate form of -nakute
The ending -nakute has an alternate form, -(à)zu (ni). This comes from the old Japanese negative, -zu, which is not otherwise used in modern Japanese. It is more common than you may expect, and you can hear it in spoken language from time to time. I think it may often be used when explaining something that happened that you did not approve of, but I guess there are other uses as well.

The irregular verbs する suru and 来る kùru have irregular forms with -zu: せず sèzu and 来ず kòzu

Example
何も言わずに帰った。
Nani mo iwàzu ni kàetta.
(He) left without saying anything.


New Vocabulary
俳優 haiyū - actor
商品 shōhin - product; wares; items to be sold
早い hayài - quick; fast; early
有名(な) yūmei (na) - famous
オリジナル(な) orijìnaru - original; one’s own (note this adjective only optionally takes な; it may be dropped)
少し sukòshi - a little; slightly
急に kyū ni - suddenly
自分で jibun de - by oneself; on one’s own
太る futòru - to get fat
すっきりする sukkiri suru - to feel refreshed
売る uru - to sell
作る tsukùru - to make


Exercise 1: Translate the following into Japanese:

I do not eat quickly.
The famous actor suddenly died.
I swam a little and then felt refreshed.

Exercise 2: Combine these sentences with adverbials
ハンバーグをいっぱい食べた。 + 太った。
お母さんはオリジナル商品を作る。自分で売る。
郵便局に行った。手紙を出した。

Exercise 3: Translate the sentences in exercise 2 into English.



As I said, adverbials also affect verb conjugation. We'll be looking at some examples of that next.
Last edited by clawgrip on Mon 08 Sep 2014, 12:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Fri 05 Sep 2014, 12:26

I hope I still have some readers.

Lesson 12: Transitivity in Verbs
I've decided that before I get into the verb conjugations, I want to put in this short lesson first, because it will help with a certain part of that lesson to know about transitivity. So here we go.

Unlike English, which distinguishes transitive and intransitive verbs by the presence or absence of an object, Japanese marks this difference through the use of distinct transitive and intransitive stems based on the same root. While it is fairly systematic, it is non-productive, so each pair must be learned. It's not so hard though.

There are three suffixes that alter transitivity: -ar(u) (intransitive), -(a)su (transitive), and -e (transitivity swapper). The transitivity swapper can appear on both transitive and intransitive roots. When -e is added, it gains the ending -ru (epenthetic -r with base verb ending -u), so verbs with this suffix added all have the ending -eru.

Usually it is not so simple as adding a suffix to a verb to get the second form. The process is complicated by the fact that many verbs belong to a (no longer existing) verb class from Old Japanese (actually two verb classes). These verbs end up with a fossilized -e on their stems (or -i), which is meaningless, and which is completely distinct from the transitivity-swapping -e suffix, but because they are identical on the surface, they can be confusing. What this means that the verb base -u and the intransitive suffix -aru often appear as -eru and -areru respectively.

TL;DR The bottom line is that without knowledge of the specific verb (or without being presented with the verb and its partner verb together), you cannot tell if the ending -eru is actively swapping the transitivity, or is just a relic from an archaic verb class.

The most common transitive/intransitive pair endings you will see are as follows:
transitive intransitive example

Code: Select all

   transitive  intransitive
1. -u          -eru            
2. -eru        -u              
3. -eru        -aru
4. -su         -eru/-iru
5. -su         -areru
6. -su         -(a)ru
7. -su         -u
8. -u          -(a)ru
Examples:

Code: Select all

    transitive       intransitive
1.  焼く   yaku      焼ける yakeru
2.  立てる tatèru    立つ   tàtsu
3. 上げる  ageru     上がる agaru 
4a. 焦がす kogàsu    焦げる kogèru
4b. 生かす ikàsu     生きる ikìru
5.  壊す   kowàsu    壊れる kowarèru
6.  通す   tōsu      通る   tōru
7.  飛ばす tobasu    飛ぶ   tobu
8.  折る   òru       折れる orèru
1. cook (vt), get cooked/burned (vi)
2. stand/prop (vt), stand (vi)
3. raise (vt), rise (vi)
4a. burn (vt), be burned (vi)
4b. bring to life (vt), live (vi)
5. break (vt), break (vi)
6. pass through (vt), pass through (vi)
7. send flying/throw (vt), fly (vi)
8. bend/fold/break (vt), be bent/folded/broken (vi)

This is not an extensive list of all pairs. There are a few anomalous patterns that apply to single roots or small groups of roots that don't fit the patterns presented here. One pattern that is small but that is found in commonly occuring words is -osu (vt) -iru (vi).

Code: Select all

落とす ochìru    落とす otòsu
降りる orìru     降ろす oròsu
起きる okìru     起こす okòsu
過ぎる sugìru    過ごす sugòsu
fall (vi), drop (vt)
alight/go down (vi), take down (vt)
get up (vi), awaken/arouse/bring about (vt)
go beyond (vi), spend (time) (vt)

Edit: I wasn't going to make any exercises for this lesson, but I've changed my mind. Later on I will add some.

Edit: Exercise: match the verbs with their meanings, based on the suffix patterns we learned above:

1. 下がる sagàru, 下げる sagèru
go down; descend (vi):
lower; move down (vt):

2. 驚かす odorokàsu, 驚く odoròku
be surprised (vi):
surprise (vt):

3. 出す dàsu, 出る dèru
go out (vi):
put out (vt):

4. 変わる kawaru, 変える kaeru
change (vi):
change (vt):

5. 現れる arawarèru, 表す arawàsu
appear; show up (vi):
show; express (vt):

6. 分ける wakèru, 分かる wakàru
be understandable (i.e. be discernible/divisible) (vi):
divide; separate; group (vt):

7. 染まる somaru, 染める someru
be dyed/coloured (vi):
dye/colour (vt):

8. 渡す watasu, 渡る wataru
cross (vi):
hand over (i.e. cause to cross) (vt):

9. 汚す yogosu, 汚れる yogoreru
become dirty (vi):
make dirty (vt):

10. 乾く kawàku, 乾かす kawakàsu
dry (vi):
dry (vt):

11. 伸ばす nobàsu, 伸びる nobìru
stretch (vi):
stretch (vt):

12. 加える kuwaeru, 加わる kuwawaru
be added; be put in (vi):
add; put in (vt):

You don't really need to learn all these words right now. I chose them mainly for their transitive/intransitive patterns, not for their usefulness.
Last edited by clawgrip on Mon 08 Sep 2014, 12:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by Squall » Fri 05 Sep 2014, 19:27

clawgrip wrote:I hope I still have some readers.
Konnichiwa, Kuroguripu-san.
I will start trying to learn something about Japanese. [:D] Compared to Japanese; English and Esperanto seem to have the same grammar as my natlang, therefore it will not be easy.

I think my Japanese vocabulary has more than 30 words (my third largest vocabulary without cognates), but I think they were learned wrongly, because I ignored the long vowels.


I will start with the pronunciation. I always understand the pronunciation of words of languages that do not have stress, such as Japanese and French, as oxytone.
Can I pronounce the accent as stress?
hàshi - /'haʃi/
hashì - /ha'ʃi/

nèko ga – /'nekoga/
inù ga – /i'nuga/
saki ga - /saki'ga/


Sometimes I notice diphthongs and sometimes I do not. Is there any rule?
sekai - /seka'i/
kudasai - /kuda'saj/


My natlang does not have long vowels. Can I pronounce a vowel twice instead of pronouncing it as long vowel?
arigatō - /ariga'tow/
kanyū - /kanyu'u/


How problematic is the pronunciation of the phonemes that do not exist in my natlang?
/ɯ/ as /u/
/ɕ/ as /ʃ/ (I cannot notice the difference)
/ɸ/ as /f/ (I have learned it)
/ɺ/ as /ɾ/
Since there is no other similar phoneme, I believe I would be understood.


And my last problem with the pronunciation is the pause in double consonants. Timing does not exist in my natlang, if I try to pronounce pauses and long vowels, they will be exaggerated.


Arigatou gozaimasu.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Sat 06 Sep 2014, 02:16

Squall wrote:
clawgrip wrote:I hope I still have some readers.
Konnichiwa, Kuroguripu-san.
I will start trying to learn something about Japanese. [:D] Compared to Japanese; English and Esperanto seem to have the same grammar as my natlang, therefore it will not be easy.

I think my Japanese vocabulary has more than 30 words (my third largest vocabulary without cognates), but I think they were learned wrongly, because I ignored the long vowels.


I will start with the pronunciation. I always understand the pronunciation of words of languages that do not have stress, such as Japanese and French, as oxytone.
Can I pronounce the accent as stress?
hàshi - /'haʃi/
hashì - /ha'ʃi/

nèko ga – /'nekoga/
inù ga – /i'nuga/
saki ga - /saki'ga/
To be honest, Japanese is not oxytone, it just lacks stress. If you add stress like in English, you are likely to lengthen the vowel as well, since stress and vowel length are linked in English. In Japanese, accent and vowel length are entirely separate. Replacing pitch accent with stress is likely to cause length problems which can hinder meaning. Also, a major tripping point for English speakers learning pitch accent is that every word in English, when pronounced in isolation, will end with a falling pitch. The last part of the word is always low. In Japanese though, a word like inù does not do this. The word ends on a high pitch, slightly higher than the first syllable, in fact. So to an English speaker, it may sound like the speaker is not finished speaking, because the pitch has not fallen.
Sometimes I notice diphthongs and sometimes I do not. Is there any rule?
sekai - /seka'i/
kudasai - /kuda'saj/
Diphthongs can sort of happen, but in words like sekai and kudasai, the /i/ is still going to be pronounced relatively clearly. So for example, the Japanese word hai has a much more noticeable final /i/ sound than the English word "high". Vowels are kept fairly distinct, since any vowels can occur in sequence. /ai/ has to be kept distinct from /ae/. Sometimes lexical and even grammatical distinctions hinge only on that one difference, e.g. 買います kaimasu (buy) 買えます kaemasu (can buy).
My natlang does not have long vowels. Can I pronounce a vowel twice instead of pronouncing it as long vowel?
arigatō - /ariga'tow/
kanyū - /kanyu'u/
If this makes it easier for you then sure, so long as you are not separating them with a glottal stop or anything. Sometimes long vowels in Japanese are just two vowels together, e.g. the given name Masaaki is masa + aki , the place name Hiroo is hiro + o. Sometimes long vowels also do this, resulting in extra long vowels, e.g. the place name Ōokayama (ō + okayama) which is /oːokajama/ which has [oːː], or 鳳凰 hōō phoenix /hoːoː/ which has [oːːː].
How problematic is the pronunciation of the phonemes that do not exist in my natlang?
/ɯ/ as /u/
/ɕ/ as /ʃ/ (I cannot notice the difference)
/ɸ/ as /f/ (I have learned it)
/ɺ/ as /ɾ/
Since there is no other similar phoneme, I believe I would be understood.
These will give you a foreign accent, but are clearly understandable and should not cause a problem.

And my last problem with the pronunciation is the pause in double consonants. Timing does not exist in my natlang, if I try to pronounce pauses and long vowels, they will be exaggerated.


Arigatou gozaimasu.
Ignoring geminates entirely can cause communication problems. Pronouncing them in an exaggerated way at least makes it clear that you are saying them, so it's the better option I think.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 06 Sep 2014, 08:13

clawgrip wrote:Sometimes long vowels also do this, resulting in extra long vowels, e.g. the place name Ōokayama (ō + okayama) which is /oːokajama/ which has [oːː], or 鳳凰 hōō phoenix /hoːoː/ which has [oːːː].
王を覆おう。ō o ōō [oːːːːːː] [}:D]

鳳凰王を覆おう。
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by Squall » Sun 07 Sep 2014, 03:05

Thanks. Now I understand it better.

The pitch accent is something that I am not used to control. But since it occurs in some cases in my natlang, I have a source.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by DesEsseintes » Wed 17 Sep 2014, 15:17

Lao Kou wrote:
clawgrip wrote:Sometimes long vowels also do this, resulting in extra long vowels, e.g. the place name Ōokayama (ō + okayama) which is /oːokajama/ which has [oːː], or 鳳凰 hōō phoenix /hoːoː/ which has [oːːː].
王を覆おう。ō o ōō [oːːːːːː] [}:D]

鳳凰王を覆おう。
Haha. I used to do this to Japanese too... [xP]
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by Lao Kou » Wed 17 Sep 2014, 15:47

DesEsseintes wrote:
Lao Kou wrote:王を覆おう。ō o ōō [oːːːːːː] [}:D]
鳳凰王を覆おう。
Haha. I used to do this to Japanese too... [xP]
施氏食獅史 goes to Japan. [;)]
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Fri 10 Oct 2014, 14:13

Anyone want more lessons on this? I will add some more if you do, and if not I will let it sit until someone does.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by MrKrov » Fri 10 Oct 2014, 16:23

...Yes?
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by tezcatlip0ca » Fri 10 Oct 2014, 18:07

Definitely. I’ve been wanting a linguistics-informed primer on Japanese for a while now, and your lessons have been absolutely perfect for me.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Sun 12 Oct 2014, 02:46

Lesson 13: Verb conjugations with the -te form
By popular request, I will continue the lessons. Two lessons ago we learned how to use -te to link two clauses together, and I alluded to how this process is used to create various verb conjugations. Now we will learn some of these. In this lesson, we will cover:

- Continuous/Perfect
- Purposeful perfect passive
- Purposeful transitive
- Unalterable perfect
- Desiderative

I should note that these are just ad hoc names I'm coming up with. Don't expect that this is what it will be called everywhere.

Continuous/Perfect
This is one of the most basic ones, that you will learn fairly on in any Japanese course. It is generally taught as a continuous tense, but some exploration in the language will reveal that it is not quite so simple. I wish I had my own lessons to read back when I was studying Japanese, because this is something that no one could teach me, and that I had to determine entirely on my own. Before we get too much into the meaning, let's look at the form:

Simply add iru to the -te form of a verb:

食べる tabèru "eat" (vt)
食べている tàbete iru

揺らす yurasu "shake" (vt)
揺らしている yurashite iru

入る hàiru "enter" (vi)
入っている hàitte iru

付く tsùku "attach" (vi)
付いている tsùite iru

Informally, especially in speech, the /i/ is very often dropped:

食べてる tàbete ru
揺らしてる yurashite ru
入っている hàitte ru
付いてる tsùite ru

As I said, this form is usually taught as a continuous tense equivalent to English "be -ing". This is true, but only for some verbs. It only acts as a continuous for transitive verbs (as far as I can tell). For intransitive verbs, it instead indicates a perfect form, that is, a continuous form of the result of the verb rather than of the action itself. Their equivalents in English usually use participles or other words rather than the perfect.

Transitive verbs forming a continuous with -te iru:
食べる tabèru "eat" (vt)
食べている tàbete iru "is eating"

揺らす yurasu "shake" (vt)
揺らしている yurashite iru "is shaking"

Intransitive verbs forming a perfect with -te iru:

入る hàiru "enter" (vi)
入っている hàitte iru "is in" (has entered)

付く tsùku "attach" (vi)
付いてる tsùite ru "is on" (has attached)

There are a few verbs where the aspect is questionable, but in these cases it doesn't really matter. Observe:

寝る neru "to sleep" (vi)
寝ている nete iru "is sleeping"

I think this verb actually means "to fall asleep" so that would explain it. But there is another verb, 眠る nemuru that also means "to sleep" which still functions as a continuous with -te iru, though based on usage I think this one really does mean "to sleep". Doesn't really matter though, because "has fallen asleep" and "is sleeping" are basically the same thing.

残る nokòru "to remain"
残っている nokòtte iru "to be left" (to have remained, to be remaining")

I'm not sure, but I guess it is really "to have remained", i.e. "to be in the state of not having gone away". Honestly though, it doesn't really matter how you interpret it, since the basic meaning is the same either way.

Note that the verbs iru and àru cannot take this form.

Purposeful perfect passive
This is a useful one to describe the state of an object that someone has purposely and consciously put it in. It's is a passive form, because it excludes the agent from the argument, but as I said, it must be an intentional and purposeful action. It is formed with the ending -te aru. This can only be used with transitive verbs.

書く kàku "to write"
書いてある kàite aru "to be written"

開ける akeru "to open"
開ける akete aru "to be open (for some intended purpose)"

焼く yaku "to cook"
焼いてある yaite aru "to be cooked already (so as to be ready to eat)"

Purposeful transitive
This is a form that I never saw in the Japanese textbooks that I used. It is quite commonly used in speech, and I was confused when I first heard it, because in speech people consistently use the contracted form of it. Anyway let's get into the description.

This form is used similar to -te aru above, except that it is an active form. It indicates that someone is purposely performing an action because it will have some future benefit. It is notable that it indicates a future benefit, not present. To form this, use -te oku.

開ける akeru "to open"
開けておく akete oku "to open so that it will be ready when needed later on"

残す nokòsu "to leave (behind)/to save"
残しておく nokòshite oku "to save for later"

洗う arau "to wash"
洗っておく aratte oku "to wash (so that it will be clean when it is later needed)"


書く kàku "to write"
書いておく kàite oku "to write (so that the information, document, etc. will be ready when it is later needed)"

選ぶ eràbu "to choose"
選んでおく erànde oku "to choose ahead of time so that you will be ready later"

The contracted form of -te oku is -toku (or -doku in the case of -de oku. As I said, in speech, you are almost certain to hear the contracted form rather than the full form:

開けとく aketoku
残しとく nokòshitoku
洗っとく arattoku
書いとく kàitoku
選んどく eràndoku

Unalterable perfect
This is a common one that is a bit hard to explain. Its most basic idea is that it marks a completed action for which there is "no going back". That is to say, it is done, and you will have to live with the results. Thus, it marks the speaker's opinion that the action is either undesirable, or is risky and has the potential to have undesirable effects. It generally shows some amount of disappointment or anxiety on the part of the speaker. It may be subtle or not. This is formed with -te shimau.

書く kàku "to write"
書いてしまう kàite shimau

送る okuru "to send"
送ってしまう okutte shimau

死ぬ shinu "to die"
死んでしまう shinde shimau

忘れる wasureru "to forget"
忘れてしまう wasurete shimau

This most often occurs in its contracted form -chau (or -jau in the case of -de shimau.

書いちゃう kàichau
送っちゃう okutchau
死んじゃう shinjau
忘れちゃう wasurechau

It is more common in the past tense (though non-past occurs often enough as well):
書いちゃった kàichatta "I've written it (for better or for worse)" or "I wrote it (and I didn't realize I shouldn't have)"
送っちゃった okutchatta "I've sent it (for better or for worse)" or "I sent it (and I didn't realize I shouldn't have)"
死んじゃった shinjatta "he died (and I am disappointed/saddened)"
忘れちゃった wasurechatta "I have forgotten (and I am disappointed/saddened)"

(Note that the subject of course need not be "I"; I just used it for the sake of convenience)

Desiderative
This form is used to show that the speaker wants something to happen. However, it excludes things the speaker personally wants to do. It is formed with -te hoshìi. This may be written ~て欲しい or ~てほしい. The fully hiragana form is somewhat more common.

書く kàku "to write"
書いてほしい kàite hoshii "want someone to write"

やる yaru "to do"
やって欲しい yatte hoshìi "want someone to do"

行く iku "to go"
行ってほしい itte hoshìi "want someone to go"

Accent note: if the verb a downstep accent, then hoshii is flat and low. If it lacks a downstep, then it occurs in hoshìi: cf. kàite hoshii, yatte hoshìi.


There are other forms that use -te, but I'm limiting it to these ones for now.

Vocabulary for this lesson
揺らす yurasu – to shake (vt)
やる yaru – to do (vt)
焼く yaku – to cook (vt)
付く tsuku – to attach (vi)
洗う arau – to wash (vt)
欲しい hoshìi – to be wanted/desirable

Exercise:
The boy is swimming.
(I) want (you) to send the letter.
I ate the apple (unfortunately, I didn't realize you wanted to eat it).
I asked (her) (already, so we are ready, because I have the answer we need).
The hamburg steaks have been made (and are ready).
(I) don't want (you) to shake (it).
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by tezcatlip0ca » Fri 17 Oct 2014, 18:35

Spoiler:
男の子わ泳いでいる。 Otokò no ko wa oyòide iru.
手紙を出して欲しい。 Tegami o dàshite hoshii.
りんごを食べてしまった。 Ringo o tabète shimatta.
私わ聞いておいた。 Watashi wa kiite oita.
ハンバーグが作ってあった。 Hanbā̀gu ga tsukùtte atta.
揺らして欲しくない。 Yurashite hoshìku nai.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 23 Oct 2014, 02:26

Good! Only one small problem:
tezcatlip0ca wrote:
Spoiler:
男の子わ泳いでいる。 Otokò no ko wa oyòide iru.
手紙を出して欲しい。 Tegami o dàshite hoshii.
りんごを食べてしまった。 Ringo o tabète shimatta.
私わ聞いておいた。 Watashi wa kiite oita.
ハンバーグが作ってあHanbā̀gu ga tsukùtte aru. (It needs to remain in the present, otherwise it means that they were ready)
揺らして欲しくない。 Yurashite hoshìku nai.
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Ossicone
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by Ossicone » Fri 24 Oct 2014, 18:50

I've enjoyed reading through these lessons. [B)]
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