日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

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nzk13
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by nzk13 » Tue 04 Nov 2014, 20:25

Spoiler:
LESSON 8:

子が手紙を書いた。
切手をコンビ二に買った。
女の子が手紙を出さなかった。
母が郵便局へ行く。
母が手紙を出す。
新しい本が小さいだ。
古い本が大きかった。
この池がきれいだ。
このきれいな池が町に近い。
山が高い。
山が町に遠い。
Skribajon mean vi esas lektant, kar amiki.
Native: American English. Knows: some Hebrew/Judaeo-Aramaic, some Ido, bit of La Esperanton, a couple of Yiddish words, and bits and pieces of others.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 13 Nov 2014, 14:30

Sorry I'm a bit late.
nzk13 wrote:
Spoiler:
LESSON 8:

男の子が手紙を書いた。
切手をコンビ二買った。 (can't use に as a locative for verbs that don't imply a static location)
女の子が手紙を出さなかった。
母が郵便局へ行く。 (お母さん is the word I taught, but for now 母 still works)
母が手紙を出す。 (see above)
新しい本が小さい。 (小さい is a verbal adjective so it does not need the copula)
古い本が大きかった。
この池がきれいだ。
このきれいな池が町に近い。
山が高い。
山が町から遠い "far from", not "far to"
Overall, not bad.
misora
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by misora » Mon 17 Nov 2014, 03:49

人は町を見る
犬が町を歩く
人が山から行く
人の犬が山へ歩く
犬を見る
犬の山は山をくる

This is for the first lesson. Sorry, I just started reading the lessons, and they are helpful and well thought out.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:36

Spoiler:
m*isora wrote:人は町を見る
犬が町へ/に歩く
人が山から町へ/町に行く
人の犬が山へ歩く
犬を見る
犬の山は山をくる 山の犬が町へ/町に来る。 (remember that word order for の is like "'s", not like "of")
This is for the first lesson. Sorry, I just started reading the lessons, and they are helpful and well thought out.[/quote]
Thanks.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:59

Lesson 14: Demonstratives
Just want to fit in a quick lesson here to open up some vocabulary options for future lessons. This will introduce you to the Japanese system of demonstratives. Japanese has four demonstratives: proximal こ ko (here), medial そ so (there (near you)), distal あ a (over there), and interrogative ど do (where). These four roots exist in a number of forms within a system that is highly predictable and logical (with only one exception). Let's take a look at the chart.

Code: Select all

             prox    med     dist    interrog
pronominal   これ    それ    あれ    どれ
             kore    sore    are     dòre
(Informal)   こいつ  そいつ  あいつ  どいつ
             koitsu  soitsu  aitsu  doitsu
attributive  この    その    あの    どの
             kono    sono    ano     dono
locative     ここ    そこ    あそこ  どこ
             koko    soko    asoko   dòko
directional  こちら  そちら  あちら  どちら
             kochira sochira achira  dòchira
(informal)   こっち  そっち  あっち  どっち
             kotchi  sotchi  atchi   dòtchi
method       こう    そう    ああ    どう
             kō      sō      ā       dṑ
type         こんな  そんな  あんな  どんな
             konna   sonna   anna    dònna
As you can see, the only irregular one is asoko, which appears in place of the expected *ako.

Pronominal should be fairly self explanatory:
これはペンです。
Kore wa pèn desu.
this TOP pen COP.POL
"This is a pen."

あの日
ano hi
"that day"

どれ dore means "which one"

informal pronominal
These pronouns are most commonly used to refer to people, and less commonly objects, and may be taken as either familiar or pejorative, depending on context. Koitsu and aitsu are quite common, while soitsu is less common, and doitsu quite rare.
Attributive appears before nouns:

あいつは話全然聞かないしさ。
Aitsu wa hanashi zenzen kikanai shi sa.
"And the guy never listens to what I say."

Locative also self-explanatory:
あそこにある。
Asoko ni àru.
"It's over there."

どこ dòko means "where"

Directional is not at all self-explanatory. Everything here applies for the informal version as well, which is really just a contracted form.

It can indicate direction:
こちらへどうぞ。
Kochira e dṑzo.
this-way to by.all.means
"Please come this way."

It can also indicate identity, much like "__ one" in English.

どっちがいい?
Dòtchi ga ii?
which-one SBJ be.good
"Which one do you want?"

It can also be a plain locative, especially when the speaker purposely wants to contrast locations:
そっちにある。
Sotchi ni àru.
"It's there (e.g. it's near you, not near me, etc.)."

Method is pretty much equivalent to "like __"

そうする。
Sō suru.
"(I) will do that (i.e. what you have suggested, I will do it like that).

どう means "how". When it appears on its own it is generally used for opinions:

旅行はどうだった?
Ryokō wa dṑ datta?
trip TOP how COP-PST
"How was your trip?"

In other cases it is often equivalent to "what" in English:

どうする?
Dṑ suru?
"What (should we) do?"

Type is like "__ kind of"

あんな人
anna hito
"that kind of person"

どんな人?
dònna hito?
What kind of person?"

With adjectives, it is like "such"

こんないい人
konna ìi hito
"such a good person (as this)"

あんな遠い町
anna tōi machi
"(such) a village as far away as that one"

When combined with the adverbializer に ni, it can be used to focus on the unexpected degree or extent of an adjective or adverb:

こんなに便利だとは思わなかった。
Konna ni bènri da to wa omowànakatta.
this-way ADV convenient COP COMP TOP think-NEG-PST
"I didn't realize/know/think it was this convenient."

(don't worry about とは to wa right now).

Interrogatives cannot use this pattern for this purpose. Instead, the phrase どのぐらい dono gurai (or どのくらい dono kurai) is used:

お湯はどのぐらい熱い?
Oyu wa dono gurai atsùi?
HON-hot.water TOP which approximately be.hot
"How hot is the water?"

In informal speech this is often contracted to don gurai.

That's all for now. I'll probably revise this slightly soon.
Last edited by clawgrip on Sun 15 Feb 2015, 14:20, edited 2 times in total.
misora
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by misora » Wed 19 Nov 2014, 16:37

I'm trying to understand the latest one, and I had a question about the "type" ones. Could you use them to describe a type of people that you disagree with, as in the sentence "あんな人は好きじゃない"?

Also how does the "method" one differ from the particle で which I learned to roughly mean by means of, if that's actually correct.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 20 Nov 2014, 02:12

misora wrote:I'm trying to understand the latest one, and I had a question about the "type" ones. Could you use them to describe a type of people that you disagree with, as in the sentence "あんな人は好きじゃない"?
Yes, this is fine. It basically works the same as "this kind of/that kind of" in English. With に ni added it becomes "this much/that much"
Also how does the "method" one differ from the particle で which I learned to roughly mean by means of, if that's actually correct.
The difference is that the で de particle you are referring to is instrumental, e.g. 筆で字を書く Fude de jì o kàku "(You should) write the letters with a brush". Compare 字をこう書く Jì o kō kàku "(You should) write the letters like this."
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Wed 04 Feb 2015, 23:33

Is this still active? I'm reading through it, and I have a few questions.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 00:19

GrandPiano wrote:Is this still active? I'm reading through it, and I have a few questions.
clawgrip is certainly still active on the board, and I don't think they're going to ignore any questions you may have - no matter how many months ago the last post in the thread was. [:)]

This actually reminds me that I've been meaning to find time to read this thread myself for a while now.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 00:49

OK, in that case, my first question: Why isn't pitch accent provided for the phrases in lesson 5?
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 01:21

Mistake. I will also admit that since there is no editor, I may occasionally forget to add accents to some phrases. I guess I'll fix that one up eventually. I am also partway through another, kind of long lesson.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 01:27

I've added them in for that lesson. A lot of them are totally flat though, and I think this may have to do with them being phrases that people call out, so a higher intonation at the end makes them more audible, especially combined with the vowel lengthening that also commonly occurs, e.g. konnichiwaaa, otsukaresama deeesu, shitsurei shimaaasu. As a result, you can often ignore those accent marks and keep the high intonation on any of them (except gomen/gomen nasai; you'll sound obnoxious if you cheerfully say sorryyyyy!).

In fact, when I first came to Japan, it took me a while to figure out what the staff in stores and restaurants were saying when they said shitsurei shimasu, because it often sounds something like sei shimaaaasu. They totally crush the first part in compensation for the lengthening of the ending.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 01:38

OK, thanks. So, after a downstep, the pitch keeps rising, right? And is there a pitch reset after every word or word-particle combination? Also, I thought [ɺ] was in free variation with [ɾ]?

Finally - Are these vowel devoicings correct?
Spoiler:
  • 人 h(i)to
  • 町 mach(i)
  • 行く ik(u)
  • 歩く aruk(u)
  • する s(u)ru
  • しない sh(i)nai
  • 話す hanas(u)
  • 話した hanash(i)ta
I've read that accented vowels actually can be devoiced, and a pitch accent is still perceived thanks to the following downstep. Is this true?
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:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 01:59

The exact spot of the rise is generally predictable, but it's a little hard to explain and there is some variation based on specific intonation and so on, but it will always occur after the completion of a "phrase", or word/word+particle as you say. I guess it frequently rises on the second mora of a phrase, but that's just a very general explanation.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 02:10

GrandPiano wrote:OK, thanks. So, after a downstep, the pitch keeps rising, right? And is there a pitch reset after every word or word-particle combination? Also, I thought [ɺ] was in free variation with [ɾ]?

Finally - Are these vowel devoicings correct?
Spoiler:
  • 人 h(i)to yes
  • 町 mach(i) no
  • 行く ik(u) no
  • 歩く aruk(u) maybe
  • する s(u)ru no*
  • しない sh(i)nai no*
  • 話す hanas(u) yes
  • 話した hanash(i)ta yes
For all the final vowel devoicings, everything I say here applies specifically to when the words are pronounced in isolation.
- Final vowels cannot usually be devoiced unless the previous syllable has an accent. So for example, 価値 kàch(i) is fine. This is also why ik(u) is not normal, but arùk(u) is possible. There is, however, some variation in how people speak, and it's hard to say if it's being partially devoiced, shortened, or what's going on. I can imagine people saying, for example, sush(i).
- Normally, devoicing cannot occur when one of the surrounding consonants is voiced, which is why I said no for s(u)ru and sh(i)nai. But since these two are extremely common and basic words, they do sometimes get pronounced that way.

So you can take away from this that devoicing is messy in real speech, just like contractions and mergers in English. But according to more careful speech, the rules are fairly clear.
I've read that accented vowels actually can be devoiced, and a pitch accent is still perceived thanks to the following downstep. Is this true?
This can happen yes, e.g. 町から mach(ì) kara
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 14:06

What about [ɺ] and [ɾ]? Are they in free variation?
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Thu 05 Feb 2015, 14:42

It's complicated. I think it varies by speaker somewhat, but it is also influenced by the vowel that comes after it. According to Wikipedia (and I agree with it): To an English speaker's ears, its pronunciation varies between a flapped d ([ɾ]) and a flapped l [ɺ], sounding most like d before /i/ and /j/ most like l before /o/, and most like a retracted flap [ɾ̠] before /a/.

No idea what they're on about with /j/ though. Maybe a typo for /e/? I think it also sounds more [l] before /u/.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 05:32

Perhaps it said [j] because [j] is the semivocalic counterpart of , and [ɾj] clusters can occur.

I would post my answers to the first few lessons' exercises, but first, I'd like to know what the difference between the particles に and へ. In lesson 6, they're both translated as "to": 人に "to the person", 山へ "to the mountain".
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by clawgrip » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 09:45

へ is a directional particle that marks the destination of a verb of movement or the direction of a verb of orientation. However, へ is not so commonly used, as it can be replaced in pretty much all cases by に (except in the salutation at the beginning of a letter, though this is probably due more to tradition than grammar). に is a much more versatile particle with a variety of uses beyond those of へ.
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Re: 日本語を学ぼう Learn Japanese

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 07 Feb 2015, 20:21

So, に is to へ as a rectangle is to a square?
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