IPA Charts

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Raydred
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Raydred » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 15:40

Milyamd wrote:
Raydred wrote:And I meant doing a chart for non-pulmonic consonants in the same way as the pulmonic consonant chart.
It's a good idea, but where would you include k͜ʘ? In velars? In labials? What about g͜ʘ? And q͜ʘ? And q͜ǃ?
I said I would keep the chart simple for clicks because you can construct the various clicks using the symbols of pulmonic consonants. X)
(But it's possible anyway. It just gets a bit longer.)
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 18:51

Raydred wrote:What I mean is the distinction between Glottalic/Uvular/Velaric egressives.
And I meant doing a chart for non-pulmonic consonants in the same way as the pulmonic consonant chart.
Give me an example, because I don't follow you... =\
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Nortaneous » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 18:58

Maximillian wrote:
Raydred wrote:What I mean is the distinction between Glottalic/Uvular/Velaric egressives.
And I meant doing a chart for non-pulmonic consonants in the same way as the pulmonic consonant chart.
Give me an example, because I don't follow you... =\
glottalic egressives = ejectives
velaric egressives = clicks in k͡
uvular egressives = clicks in q͡

Although it's very rare for languages to have POA contrasts for the back articulation of clicks. If there's a different chart for clicks than for other consonants, as far as I know it's almost always because, as in Nama, there are so many clicks compared to the consonants (or so many phonation contrasts, or whatever) that it's hard to fit them all into a chart.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 19:03

Nortaneous wrote:glottalic egressives = ejectives
velaric egressives = clicks in k͡
uvular egressives = clicks in q͡
No.. Clicks are lingual ingressive, or velaric ingressive. Check this and this.

And I meant an example of a table.
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Raydred
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Raydred » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 19:20

Maximillian wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:glottalic egressives = ejectives
velaric egressives = clicks in k͡
uvular egressives = clicks in q͡
No.. Clicks are lingual ingressive, or velaric ingressive. Check this and this.

And I meant an example of a table.
Yep. Clicks are ingressive so what Nortaneous said doesn't apply(although they could be represented like that with the egressive symbol).
And well they're very, very rare. The only documented language with it is Damin->http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damin. A language every conlanger should read a bit about, it's interesting.

Anyway, your not following me on what? On ejectives? Well on glottalic egressives you have ejectives, on velaric egressive you have damin, on uvular egressives you have nothing.
If you're talking about the chart I'm just saying making chart for non-pulmonic consonants, similiar to the pulmonic consonant's chart.

Edit:Nortaneous, is that hocus pocus?
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 19:29

You propose to make a chart for all possible clicks, when all we have is six official IPA symbols? Sorry, but I'm not interested. :roll: There is nearly an infinite number of possible combinations.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Raydred » Mon 06 Dec 2010, 20:32

Maximillian wrote:You propose to make a chart for all possible clicks, when all we have is six official IPA symbols? Sorry, but I'm not interested. :roll: There is nearly an infinite number of possible combinations.
I always said to keep the clicks at minimum? O:
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 18:01

Raydred wrote:I always said to keep the clicks at minimum? O:
That's the problem. Let's say I decide to make such a table. What clicks will go there? What about complex clicks? And, most importantly, what for?
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Raydred » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 20:42

Maximillian wrote:
Raydred wrote:I always said to keep the clicks at minimum? O:
That's the problem. Let's say I decide to make such a table. What clicks will go there? What about complex clicks? And, most importantly, what for?
I was suggesting something like this.
Central ʘ ǀ ǂ ǃ ‼
Lateral ǀǀǀ ǂǂ ǁ
Flapped ǃ¡
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_consonant
Something simple that wouldn't worry about the rest of the features.

What for? Not sure what do you mean but I think my mind is just being lazy avoiding the big click chart.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 20:52

Lateral articulations should be different POAs IMHO.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by roninbodhisattva » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 21:04

Milyamd wrote:Lateral articulations should be different POAs IMHO.
What? Why?
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 21:29

roninbodhisattva wrote:
Milyamd wrote:Lateral articulations should be different POAs IMHO.
What? Why?
So, laterals often depend on point of articulation: there's no labial, uvular nor glottal laterals, obviously. They also have many own manners of articulation as centrals have: central and lateral approximates, affricates, fricatives, flaps, clicks.
I think it should be something like:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

X	Labial | Labiodental | Dental | Dental lat. | Alveolar | Alv. lat. | Postalv. | Postalv. lat. | Retroflex | Retroflex lat. | Palatal | Palatal lat. | Velar | Velar lat. | Uvular | Pharyngeal | Epiglottal | Glottal
Nasal
Plosive
Ejective stop
Implosive
Affricate
Fricative
(Ej. fricative)
Approximant
Flap
Trill
Click
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by roninbodhisattva » Tue 07 Dec 2010, 21:44

All that does is expand the chart in a way that doesn't actually reflect the facts about laterals. Laterals are a type of articulation, not a place, and because of that, they've been placed on manner of articulation side of the chart. In a language that contrasts and [ɬ], the difference is not in place of articulation, but how the tongue is articulating the fricative at the alveolar point of articulation. The fact that they can't be made at certain points of articulation doesn't matter...it's just a physiological fact. Epiglottal stops aren't possible either. Neither are pharyngeal nasals.

I should hedge here a little bit: I don't have any problem with splitting up the alveolar column of a phonemic inventory chart in a descriptive grammar of language X that contrasts and [ɬ] into sub-columns for lateral and central articulations. Just so long as it's recognized those are not different POAs.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Wed 08 Dec 2010, 05:14

Raydred wrote:Something simple that wouldn't worry about the rest of the features.
Ok, I'll see what I can do about it on the week-end.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Raydred » Wed 08 Dec 2010, 15:21

Maximillian wrote:
Raydred wrote:Something simple that wouldn't worry about the rest of the features.
Ok, I'll see what I can do about it on the week-end.
Nice. Also what people are these charts aiming to help? Just to think of how extensive it should be. First I think you said it would be a list of almost all the possible sounds but then you said you didn't want it to be to exhaustive.
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Wed 08 Dec 2010, 19:44

Raydred wrote:Also what people are these charts aiming to help? Just to think of how extensive it should be.
The original idea was to help myself, so I created the first PDF. Then I thought it might be helpful to others too, so all this came out. :-D I think to keep it aimed to conlangers who have hard time in creating/organising phonologies, but anything will do.
Raydred wrote:First I think you said it would be a list of almost all the possible sounds but then you said you didn't want it to be to exhaustive.
I said that it was helping, because you have almost all possible sounds before your eyes, but I was referring mainly to pulmonics and vowels. I didn't even think about clicks then! :mrgreen:
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Re: IPA Charts

Post by Maximillian » Fri 10 Dec 2010, 12:21

IPA – X-SAMPA Correspondence Charts
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