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The Index Diachronica: CHRIDD'S SEARCHABLE INDEX = WONDERFUL

Posted: Wed 12 Aug 2015, 18:44
by Linguifex
I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.

Would any of you be willing to convert a section or few? I'm told that there's ways to include multiple documents in one document, so I could use some help on that as well (and changing the page orientation for certain pages, which would make it easier to display the phonologies of, for instance, the Caucasian protolanguages).

If you're interested (or if you have some sound changes for or feedback on the document), please shoot me a message.

Thank you.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2015, 08:02
by Thrice Xandvii
Wouldn't there be a way to just do a "Find and Replace" operation on the document? I have no idea what those formats were you referenced, but aren't there already Unicode characters used throughout the document?

I'm confused.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2015, 10:29
by Adarain
The current system uses Tipa, a package which does some crazy witchcraft to make it seem like there is Unicode but is actually ascii with different fonts.

That said, couldn't you port over the document to XeLaTeX and replace all uses of tipa with the respective symbols? Like replace \textipa{N} with ŋ? That would probably already solve a lot, wouldn't it?

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2015, 19:31
by Linguifex
Adarain wrote:That said, couldn't you port over the document to XeLaTeX and replace all uses of tipa with the respective symbols? Like replace \textipa{N} with ŋ? That would probably already solve a lot, wouldn't it?
I can't do that because I have stuff like \ipa{m n N} (I changed the command to make it shorter) where you have several symbols under one command.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2015, 19:36
by Adarain
It would at least replace some parts, so it’d be a little bit less work for afterwards. Considering how big the document is it might cut quite a lot of work if one only has to deal with places where multiple symbols are in sequence.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Thu 13 Aug 2015, 20:08
by qwed117
I'm willing to help.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Fri 14 Aug 2015, 18:54
by qwed117
I've for the most part finished the Sardinian Changes
UV represent stressed and unstressed vowels, respectively (Don't ask me how this happened; it just did!)
Accent vowels are also stressed
SZ represent unvoiced and voiced plosives respectively; care must be taken so that <qu> and <gu> are both in this group
FB represent front and back vowels respectively, a is not in either group
Spoiler:
ae/e/_
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
h//[#C]_
m//_#
i/dʒ/#_
/i/#_s "May have come later along from Iberia, mainly found in Logudorese"
l[ld]/ɖɖ/[UV]_[UV]
nd/ɳɖ/[UV]_[UV]
u//C_C
l/r/_C "may have been reverse near stressed vowels to give abbaltzare from abbratzare
l→r/C_
v→b/#_
S/Z/[UV]_V
qu/pp/[VU]_[UV]/#_ "Did not occur in Nuorese or Campidanese"
gu/bb/[VU]_[UV]/#_ "Did not occur in Nuorese or Campidanese"
ngu/mb/_ "Mainly Logudorese; mm and ngu are present in other dialects"
qu/k/#_[VU]
k/ʦ/_[íi]"May have occured after r/i/c(h)u in some dialects, giving bétzu instead of béciu "
t/ʦ/_[íi]
ii/i/_
ge/i/[VU]_
[pk]/s/_s
o/u/_k
k/t/_t
i/l/l_ "Wikipedia claims it might've shifted to [dz], [ts], [ldz] or [dʒ]"
eu/u/_#
k/c/_[auúá]/s_ "Occured to qu in Campidanese
k/ch/s_[auúá] "Orthography correction"
r/i/c(h)_u "Possible deletion"
g/n/_n
ks/sc/_ "can be replaced with just x"
/ur/#_rF "only present in Logudorese"
/ar/#_rB "only present in Logudorese"
[bdg]/ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
d/r/[VU]_[UV] "Some Campidanese, esp. near Cagliari"
p/β/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
t/ð/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
k/ɣ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
[ks]/c/s_
Edit: Made a little mistake regarding initial "i". It goes to dZ not, Z (XSampa)

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Fri 14 Aug 2015, 19:48
by Linguifex
Thanks, qwed117!

I'm a bit confused about this change:
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
It looks like it says that those sounds were deleted between all vowels. Can you clarify this a bit, please?

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Fri 14 Aug 2015, 19:50
by qwed117
Linguifex wrote:Thanks, qwed117!

I'm a bit confused about this change:
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV] "It seems as if b->Ø was a later shift coming from Iberia; it's not present in habeo->appo"
It looks like it says that those sounds were deleted between all vowels. Can you clarify this a bit, please?
That's precisely what happened. I was surprised too. It's present in haber-> aere, but not habeo->appo.

Re: The Index Diachronica: A call for help

Posted: Tue 25 Aug 2015, 01:07
by kanejam
Presumably it was blocked by the e: habeo -> abjo -> appo. That's a complete guess though.

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:35
by Linguifex
The Index Diachronica v.8.1 is out.

qwed, you'd mentioned on IRC that your Sardinian changes were incomplete—let me know when they're done so I can add them to the document, please.

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Mon 16 Nov 2015, 11:53
by Thrice Xandvii
You still looking for help on this? If so, it might be helpful to post what specifically folks would have to know in order to volunteer... Because I'd love to help but have no idea what is actually required to do so.

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Tue 17 Nov 2015, 02:35
by qwed117
Linguifex wrote:The Index Diachronica v.8.1 is out.

qwed, you'd mentioned on IRC that your Sardinian changes were incomplete—let me know when they're done so I can add them to the document, please.
Yes, they're unfinished, partly due to a scribal error on my part. The words Wikipedia gave were in the current Campidanese standard,which I misinterpreted as Logudorese so I have to fix that. I'm also going to make it into a IPA-friendly variant rather than one highly dependent on orthographical changes. Because of my current workload, however, that might take me past Thanksgiving. [:(]

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Tue 17 Nov 2015, 04:49
by qwed117
This should serve as a final copy. I tried to remove as much of my "orthography" as possible. S and Z represent unvoiced and voiced plosives (and kw and gw, together) U is the stressed vowels, and V is the unstressed vowels, but they should be omitted when placed onto the document. I don't think it's possible to remove the stressed-based accent without the SCA2 failing. Because of wide variation in spoken Sardinian, it is impossible to catalogue all occuring results of the sound changes (for example Cl->Cr occasionally has l retained, or goes fully to Cj). I have tried to get the most common pronunciations and dialectal variations down. Please pm me if you find any errors, or a word that doesn't go through to the expected outcome. It relies upon a latin text written in broad IPA (ie, /u u:/ not /ʊ u/)
Spoiler:
[UV]:/[UV]/_
e/i/C_[UV]
i/j/[UV]_[UV]
i/j/_[UV]
[vwb]//[UV]_[UV]
ae/e/_
au/o/_
h//[#C]_
m//_#
/i/_s "Mainly Logudorese, may have come from Iberia, despite lack of vowel shifts"
l[ld]/ɖɖ/[UV]_[UV] "Doesn't happen in bella; only known case"
nd/ɳɖ/[UV]_[UV]
stl/skl/_ "Rare?"
rcl/rc/_ "Rare?"
r/l/_C "Occasional, varies by case"
l→r/C_ "Occasional, varies by case; may have been reverse near stressed vowels to give abbaltzare from abbratzare"
r[ji]/rdʒ/[UV]_[UV] "dialectal"
v→b/#_
S/Z/[UV]_V
kw/pp/_V/#_ "Only Logudorese"
gw/bb/_V/#_ "Only Logudorese"
kw/k/#_[VU]
k/ʦ/_[íi]
ii/i/_ "Correction in case errors appear"
[pk]/s/_s
o/u/_k "dialectal?"
k//_t "may be retained?"
[ij]/l/l_
ll/[dz],[ts],[ldz],[dʒ],[ll]/_ "varies;dialectal?"
eu/u/_#
t/d/[UV]_r[UV]
k/s/s_
íi/í/_ "Correction in case errors appear"
[ji]e/ge/#_
d//[VU]_[ji]
n[ji]/ndʒ/_[UV]
t[ji]/ʦ/_[VU]
d/r/[VU]_[UV] "Some Campidanese, esp. near Cagliari"
b/β/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
d/ð/[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
g/ɣ /[VU]_[UV] "except in Nuorese"
g/n/_n
/ur/#_r[e] "only present in Logudorese"
/ar/#_r(j)[uo] "only present in Logudorese; 'a' might also serve as trigger. Glides should be ignored for this in rivum->arriu"
My sources are mainly http://www.sardegnacultura.it/documenti ... 093224.pdf

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Mon 29 Feb 2016, 22:05
by Linguifex
Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Tue 01 Mar 2016, 00:32
by Ephraim
Linguifex wrote:Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.
They are sometimes wrong, and many of them are just hard to parse. You can just remove the first change θ→f / _l. I think source file that the changes are taken from included it because the author used an odd word list, where words like Gothic þliugan was taken to show the original cluster (the author actually mentions that other PG reconstructions have *fl here). It's almost certainly the other way around, Gothic had a sound change *fl > *þl in certain contexts.

Also, the changes are for Old Icelandic, although many are common to all Old Norse dialects, some are not even common to all of West Norse.

As far as I'm aware, there is no good list of sound changes that can be easily incorporated into the Index Diachronica. I've actually been working on compiling sound changes from Proto-Indo-European to late Medieval North Germanic but for each change, I'm trying to include a short description, sources, dating, and what dialects the change applied so it's a somewhat sizeable project, and it's perhaps not the main priority right now.

If the Proto-Germanic to Old Icelandic changes are the most interesting for people, I could perhaps try to focus on those and post something less detailed, I'm not making any promises about when, though.

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.8.1 is out/A call for help

Posted: Tue 01 Mar 2016, 16:12
by Lambuzhao
Ephraim wrote:
Linguifex wrote:Index Diachronica v.10.0 is out.

Anybody got a better set of changes for Norse? I've been told mine are wrong.
They are sometimes wrong, and many of them are just hard to parse. You can just remove the first change θ→f / _l. I think source file that the changes are taken from included it because the author used an odd word list, where words like Gothic þliugan was taken to show the original cluster (the author actually mentions that other PG reconstructions have *fl here). It's almost certainly the other way around, Gothic had a sound change *fl > *þl in certain contexts.
Indeed, about the Gothic.
Which see-
http://www.jstor.org/stable/408893?seq= ... b_contents


ΚΥΔΟΣ, Linguifex. Most impressive!

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Posted: Mon 07 Mar 2016, 09:02
by DesEsseintes
I feel this resource is so valuable that it should be stickered. I only found the index about a year and a half after joining the CBB, and now I religiously update it.

The latest version even has sound changes for Cheyenne*! I mean, what could be awesomer? Seriously.

*Even though I suspect they are very incomplete

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Posted: Sun 10 Jul 2016, 02:28
by chridd
Linguifex (almost a year ago, I know) wrote:I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.
I think I've figured out how to make a Unicode PDF without having to retyping the whole thing (PDF, TeX source (use with xelatex), though this is based on an old version of Index Diachronica since I don't have the TeX source for the most recent version). (Mostly it just involved changing around the \usepackage statements, and also \ipa in section headings needed to be changed, and also a font that has all the characters.)

I've also made a webpage where you can search for sound changes involving a specific sound (again based on an old version).

Re: The Index Diachronica: v.10.0 is out—IT'S PARTY TIME

Posted: Sun 10 Jul 2016, 08:38
by qwed117
chridd wrote:
Linguifex (almost a year ago, I know) wrote:I would like to make the Index Unicode-compatible for ease of searching, but redoing the entire 300+-page document in XeTeX or XeLaTeX or whatever would take me a considerable amount of time. Therefore, I am asking for help.
I think I've figured out how to make a Unicode PDF without having to retyping the whole thing (PDF, TeX source (use with xelatex), though this is based on an old version of Index Diachronica since I don't have the TeX source for the most recent version). (Mostly it just involved changing around the \usepackage statements, and also \ipa in section headings needed to be changed, and also a font that has all the characters.)

I've also made a webpage where you can search for sound changes involving a specific sound (again based on an old version).
One thought: Amazing.