One third of the way through the decade

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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 05 Jan 2015, 04:51

Skógvur wrote:Also Nazis are mainstream politicians in Sweden and supposedly other European countries again.
WTF?
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Egerius » Mon 05 Jan 2015, 08:37

eldin raigmore wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Also Nazis are mainstream politicians in Sweden and supposedly other European countries again.
WTF?
Edlin, just look: Here in Germany, ordinary people already protest against the "islamization of Europe", whatever that means. A political party called "AfD - Alternative für Deutschland" is in the Bundestag and wants to get rid of recent immigrants and the Euro.
Hungary has been lead by a right-wing government for some time, attacking the local Romani population.

I'ts just plain hate, and I don't understand why.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Xing » Mon 05 Jan 2015, 15:04

eldin raigmore wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Also Nazis are mainstream politicians in Sweden and supposedly other European countries again.
WTF?
In Sweden the neo-nazi Svenskarnas parti got 0,07% of the votes in the 2014 election. I think they would have a rather long journey before they could be regarded as mainstream politicians... True, in many countries nationalist and populist parties with anti-immigration agendas, but I think pure nazis are still very few i number, and could hardly be regarded as 'mainstream politicians' in any country.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 05 Jan 2015, 23:03

Xing wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Also Nazis are mainstream politicians in Sweden and supposedly other European countries again.
WTF?
In Sweden the neo-nazi Svenskarnas parti got 0,07% of the votes in the 2014 election. I think they would have a rather long journey before they could be regarded as mainstream politicians... True, in many countries nationalist and populist parties with anti-immigration agendas, but I think pure nazis are still very few i number, and could hardly be regarded as 'mainstream politicians' in any country.
What about the Sweden Democrats. Are they as mainstream and as rightwing as I think they are?
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Khemehekis » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 06:00

Here's one thing that will certainly be remembered whenever people think of SCOTUS cases: Citizens United.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Xing » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 10:12

Creyeditor wrote: What about the Sweden Democrats. Are they as mainstream and as rightwing as I think they are?
It's a nationalist, populist party. It's main political issue is a more restrictive immigration policy. On other issues, they combine positions from the political left and right, somewhat eclectically. Other Swedish parties don't want to cooperate with the Sweden Democrats, due to differences concerning immigration policy.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Avo » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 12:19

Khemehekis wrote:Here's one thing that will certainly be remembered whenever people think of SCOTUS cases: Citizens United.
Care to explain?
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Plusquamperfekt » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 14:47

2014 was a horrible year for mankind... War in Ukraine, war in Syria, war in Iraq, war in Palestine, ISIS aka Islamic Nazis...

I don't want to exaggerate but during 2014 I sometimes had the impression it's not 2014, but 1914 [O.o]
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 06 Jan 2015, 23:21

Avo wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:Here's one thing that will certainly be remembered whenever people think of SCOTUS cases: Citizens United.
Care to explain?
I think it's hard to argue that CU has been at the forefront of public debate in recent years, and it's also clear had an effect politically. I'm not sure it's the SCOTUS decision that will be remembered longest, though - Windsor and the refusal to hear the appeals in October might be more lasting, although I suppose that if a more definitive statement comes out in future they may be forgotten.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Xonen » Wed 07 Jan 2015, 10:45

Edit: Discussion on the whole meat=murder business moved to a new thread. Please don't post responses to it here anymore.

Plusquamperfekt wrote:I don't want to exaggerate
Well, it would have been quite easy to avoid, you know. If you just hadn't written the rest of that sentence, then your post would have been 100% exaggeration-free.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Prinsessa » Wed 07 Jan 2015, 13:28

oh wow
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Khemehekis » Thu 08 Jan 2015, 05:41

Avo wrote:
Khemehekis wrote:Here's one thing that will certainly be remembered whenever people think of SCOTUS cases: Citizens United.
Care to explain?
Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission (usually referred to as just Citizens United) was a SCOTUS case in 2010 wherein the Supreme Court ruled that free speech, as promised in the First Amendment, gives corporations and lobbying groups the right to give politicians unlimited campaign money. It is controversial stateside, and has a lot of people upset, because the Supreme Court basically ruled in favor of corporate personhood with this decision. Much of the anti-corporate cause has spent its energy rallying for a reversal of Citizens United.

See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_ ... Commission
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by eldin raigmore » Thu 08 Jan 2015, 15:49

Khemehekis wrote:…., and has a lot of people upset, because the Supreme Court basically ruled in favor of corporate personhood with this decision. ….
Me, it has upset, because it means the whole government is just a tool of the richest percent of a percent. The top 100 donors contribute more than the other 4.75 million. And that's only the contributions where they have to tell us who contributed; superPACs can receive anonymous contributions.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Ànradh » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 02:23

I just want to mention that nationalism isn't necessarily an indicator of right wing and/or authoritarian policies, or even racism; Plaid Cymru and the SNP are examples of this.
I suppose you could argue the Scottish Greens too, if you consider a pro-Independence stance enough to make them a nationalist party (I wouldn't), ditto the SSP, though they're authoritarian left-wing.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Prinsessa » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 02:39

Nationalism is still a stupid, alienating mindset that brings conflicts with it.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Ànradh » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 03:03

Skógvur wrote:Nationalism is still a stupid, alienating mindset that brings conflicts with it.
Feel free to justify that at any time.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 05:19

Ànradh wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Nationalism is still a stupid, alienating mindset that brings conflicts with it.
Feel free to justify that at any time.
History proves itself.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Xing » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 07:34

Skógvur wrote:Nationalism is still a stupid, alienating mindset that brings conflicts with it.
Very often, at least.

I can think of some situations where some form of 'nationalism' might be justified. Political entities with too many national/ethnic/cultural groups within them might be unstable - which is the reason why great empires are likely to disintegrate sooner or later. Or at least, one could expect that the central government will not always be in tune with the local needs of the various constituent parts, and thus demands for greater local autonomy - or eventual independence - are easy to understand.

But still, the nationalist idea that there should be a more or less one-to-one correspondence between ethnic groups and sovereign states is difficult to defend. However one counts, there are many more ethnic groups than states. The nationalist ideal could thus be realised in two ways: by (1) forced assimilation of minority groups, or (2) the creation of thousands of new states - many times for groups that have no tradition of statehood. And since ethnic groups not necessarily are concentrated in a single area, it would probably require lots of forced relocation of people. Neither of these alternatives seems to be a recipe for a more peaceful world.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 09 Jan 2015, 16:39

Xing wrote:
Skógvur wrote:Nationalism is still a stupid, alienating mindset that brings conflicts with it.
Very often, at least.

I can think of some situations where some form of 'nationalism' might be justified. Political entities with too many national/ethnic/cultural groups within them might be unstable - which is the reason why great empires are likely to disintegrate sooner or later. Or at least, one could expect that the central government will not always be in tune with the local needs of the various constituent parts, and thus demands for greater local autonomy - or eventual independence - are easy to understand.

But still, the nationalist idea that there should be a more or less one-to-one correspondence between ethnic groups and sovereign states is difficult to defend. However one counts, there are many more ethnic groups than states. The nationalist ideal could thus be realised in two ways: by (1) forced assimilation of minority groups, or (2) the creation of thousands of new states - many times for groups that have no tradition of statehood. And since ethnic groups not necessarily are concentrated in a single area, it would probably require lots of forced relocation of people. Neither of these alternatives seems to be a recipe for a more peaceful world.
I also feel that nationalism is another form of creating division, because of the concept of the in-group/out-group dynamic. I would rather the world was one nation and one tribe.
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Re: One third of the way through the decade

Post by Ànradh » Sat 10 Jan 2015, 02:58

Ahzoh wrote:History proves itself.
Much like Creation proves the existence of God? You know as well as I that this is a non-argument; vaguely insinuating that the evidence is there isn't quite the same as procuring it.
Xing wrote:... the central government will not always be in tune with the local needs of the various constituent parts, and thus demands for greater local autonomy - or eventual independence - are easy to understand.
This rather hits the nail on the head.
I would say it was a massive oversimplification to link nationalism to concepts ethnic purity, though. Yeah, there have been, and are, plenty of nationalist groups that are little more than xenophobic bigots (I even readily concede that nationalism is easy to use as a vehicle for this), but you know what they say about causation and correlation.
Ahzoh wrote:I also feel that nationalism is another form of creating division, because of the concept of the in-group/out-group dynamic.
Arguable (much like any other social grouping you'd care to form), but there's nothing saying different nations couldn't or shouldn't co-operate with each other whenever possible.
I just don't see the issue with letting groups that don't think alike go off to do their own thing; there's nothing stopping them banding together over something larger, or splitting into smaller groups over something smaller.
Ahzoh wrote:I would rather the world was one nation and one tribe.
Not exactly feasible though, is it? There have been a great many people throughout history who felt the same; few of them agreed as to exactly which tribe should be that one, however.
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