Gender [split]

What can I say? It doesn't fit above, put it here. Also the location of board rules/info.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 09:34

seems that we are going to have another thread splitting from here...but I am not going to jump in

continue to talk about the polysynthetic conlang:

it has a basic word order of SOV, adjectives are verbs and precede nouns they modify, and it uses postpositions rather than prepositions.

The language does not have a specific verb for "to see", "to hear", "to smell", etc. one often uses the combination of the root for "to perceive" and certain prefixes to express the same meaning.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Chagen » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:00

I truly am miserable right now. For the past two days I've gotten less than an hour of sleep reach day. I don't know why but I feel so exhausted, my eyes hurt so bad, Burt I just can't fap asleep. I'm getting seriously worried, I've sometimes been unable to fall asleep but never for two days in a row.

I've always been terrible at falling asleep but this is the worst it's ever been. I'm so fucking tired of this. I'm so fucking tired of lying in bed for two hours just to fall asleep. Why can't I be fucking normal...
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ebon » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:26

I think it might be prudent to split this off into its own thread as well.
gestaltist wrote:
Do you tell a suicidal person they can't possibly be suicidal? The self-loathing person that they're not really self-loathing? I would wager you don't (and if you do, you should probably reevaluate your strategy). You accept that they feel this way and try to help them not feel as bad.
No I don't, but I do tell them I disagree with their assessment. Do you feel it is acceptable to tell a person who says they are agendered that you don't agree with their assessment?
But you don't disagree with their assessment. You don't say "No, you don't feel suicidal/hate yourself". In other words, when they tell you how they feel about themselves, you accept that that is, right there and then, their lived experience. What you do is try to help them get past the pain this experience causes them, by telling them something like "I don't think you're a terrible person" or what have you.

The equivalent to this isn't to tell people who come out to you "no, I don't believe that". It's to say " how can I help you cope with the problems this causes for you?"

So no. I don't think it's ever acceptable to tell that to a trans person. I don't understand how you (general you) would presume to know better than them in the first place.

If so- or in other words, if being called cis creates dysphoria-like reactions in you- then yes, I would honor that request. Just confirm that you do indeed feel that way.

Somehow, I doubt this is the case though.
Ok, so I assume it is OK for me to put a nonbinary person under the same scrutiny, and if they don't feel suicidal from me using the "normal" English pronouns, I can ignore their requests to change my speech. Fair enough.

BTW: I find your answer interesting. Is my discomfort caused by the term "cis" (which is real - I wasn't trolling) OK to be ignored because it doesn't make me feel bad *enough*? Wouldn't it be common human decency to accept such a request? I mean, it's much easier to avoid a rarely used neologism than it is to stop using pronouns... Also: I don't think we ever spoke before, so my request was actually directed at people with whom I frequently talk, and who are important to me, like Micamo. I am not surprised you could care less how I feel - I'm a total stranger after all.
I have to apologise here. I've encountered this argument before many times and this is the first time it wasn't facetious. I assumed yours was too and responded with that in mind and I was wrong to do that.

That being said, picking out the worst aspect of dysphoria I mentioned and treating it as if it was all I mentioned is a dishonest argument. You know very well that I did not imply that.

Now that that's out of the way: I meant what I said. If it actually causes you pain to be called cis, I won't. Is "not trans" acceptable? How about "you don't feel dysphoria" or "your gender is equivalent to your gender assigned at birth"? Or "you feel that your gender, sex and social role all line up"? "Neither your sex nor your social role cause you pain?" In the event that I ever need to reference the fact that you aren't trans, how would you like me to do it?

(Disclaimer: People experience being trans differently. Not every trans person will experience all of the above.)

By the way, singular they as a genderneutral pronoun is normal English and not a modern invention. Apparently it's attested as early as 14th century, but don't quote me on that.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ebon » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:37

OTʜᴇB wrote:
Frislander wrote:Well the point is that they don't want people to think of them as having the sex they were born with but with the gender they identify with, and using pronouns which reflect their gender identity is how you respect that.
... but they fundamentally do have the sex that they were born with... and I am genuinely struggling to understand this. By me using a person's sex to determine the best way to refer to them without using their name, I was told I was not referring to their identity, so I could deduce that they do not consider their sex to be a part of their identity, and I see it as a very helpful feature I can use to help make my use of language coherent, and so use it independently of their identity, which I acknowledge when declaring them in the context e.g. using their name when introducing them to a clause.
I'm curious what you do when someone tells you they're intersex, or when it turns out you were wrong about someone's sex.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Chagen » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:49

This insomnia is going to literally kill me. Words cannot describe how agonizing it is to sit in this fucking bed for hours desperately praying that I just fucking fall asleep. Why is it so hard? Why won't my body just go to fucking sleep? Why is literally every fucking part of me broken in some fashion? What kind of sadistic higher being would do this to a person?

Why do I have to suffer like this? Why? Fucking why?!
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by gestaltist » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 10:56

Ebon wrote:I think it might be prudent to split this off into its own thread as well.
Whatever the mods decide, although I feel we have explained our positions to one another. I would be OK to wrap up this discussion.
gestaltist wrote: But you don't disagree with their assessment. You don't say "No, you don't feel suicidal/hate yourself". In other words, when they tell you how they feel about themselves, you accept that that is, right there and then, their lived experience. What you do is try to help them get past the pain this experience causes them, by telling them something like "I don't think you're a terrible person" or what have you.

The equivalent to this isn't to tell people who come out to you "no, I don't believe that". It's to say " how can I help you cope with the problems this causes for you?"

So no. I don't think it's ever acceptable to tell that to a trans person. I don't understand how you (general you) would presume to know better than them in the first place.
Fair enough. Good arguments. In actuality, this is what I (would) do. I guess making contrastive analogies helps me think a situation through, so please don't hold using them against me.

I have to apologise here. I've encountered this argument before many times and this is the first time it wasn't facetious. I assumed yours was too and responded with that in mind and I was wrong to do that.
Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be used that way, but now that you said it, it totally makes sense. None taken.
That being said, picking out the worst aspect of dysphoria I mentioned and treating it as if it was all I mentioned is a dishonest argument. You know very well that I did not imply that.
Yeah, I have a tendency to use reductio ad absurdum. My apologies. But after your response, I honestly felt like you meant there was some kind of threshold of unease below which it was OK to ignore people, which I found bizarre. Glad we cleared that up.
Now that that's out of the way: I meant what I said. If it actually causes you pain to be called cis, I won't. Is "not trans" acceptable? How about "you don't feel dysphoria" or "your gender is equivalent to your gender assigned at birth"? Or "you feel that your gender, sex and social role all line up"? "Neither your sex nor your social role cause you pain?" In the event that I ever need to reference the fact that you aren't trans, how would you like me to do it?
Any of the above is fine, although non-trans is the shortest, so probably the most practical. Even "heteronormative" is OK by me. The problem with "cis" specifically is that I mostly see it used in an aggressive and antagonizing way, and this is how I learned to perceive it. The moment someone says "cis," I feel accused for the "crime" of not being a part of the LGBT+ community, and I feel like the speaker is distancing themselves from me. Maybe this is unwarranted, but this is how I feel nonetheless.
By the way, singular they as a genderneutral pronoun is normal English and not a modern invention. Apparently it's attested as early as 14th century, but don't quote me on that.
I heard 16th century but yeah, it's well established. I would have no problem with using singular they to refer to a friend, come to think of it. Throughout this argument, I was thinking about instances of people who insist that you refer to them using pronouns they invented themselves (something like "phe" or w/e) - which I would have a hard time using and remembering.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 11:05

Chagen wrote:This insomnia is going to literally kill me. Words cannot describe how agonizing it is to sit in this fucking bed for hours desperately praying that I just fucking fall asleep. Why is it so hard? Why won't my body just go to fucking sleep? Why is literally every fucking part of me broken in some fashion? What kind of sadistic higher being would do this to a person?

Why do I have to suffer like this? Why? Fucking why?!
poor Chagen...(hug) ;-;

maybe you need to seek for some medicine to treat this condition?

btw, maybe I should post a thread for that conlang?
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Micamo » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 15:41

I am so fucking sick of privileged people treating the very existence of systemic oppressions like it's a fucking debate club, a position to be entertained and dissected but never to actually be believed. I tell you society discriminates against my mental illness and disability, and you say "What about language change." I tell you society discriminates against transgender people, and you say "What about my inconvenience." I get (rightfully) frustrated and you *still* treat this like it's a debate club, "That's a strawman argument it's not valid."

Because someone's humanity only matters if they obey debate club rules when they talk to you, right? It's so much easier to just shut down and stop listening when they break your arbitrary rules for respectability.

I'm done trying to talk some sense into people who have absolutely no intention of listening. Micamo out.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ælfwine » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 15:59

Chagen wrote:This insomnia is going to literally kill me. Words cannot describe how agonizing it is to sit in this fucking bed for hours desperately praying that I just fucking fall asleep. Why is it so hard? Why won't my body just go to fucking sleep? Why is literally every fucking part of me broken in some fashion? What kind of sadistic higher being would do this to a person?

Why do I have to suffer like this? Why? Fucking why?!
Dying from lack of sleep is perfectly possible via Fatal familial insomnia, but it is very rare.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 16:21

Micamo wrote:I am so fucking sick of privileged people treating the very existence of systemic oppressions like it's a fucking debate club, a position to be entertained and dissected but never to actually be believed. I tell you society discriminates against my mental illness and disability, and you say "What about language change." I tell you society discriminates against transgender people, and you say "What about my inconvenience." I get (rightfully) frustrated and you *still* treat this like it's a debate club, "That's a strawman argument it's not valid."

Because someone's humanity only matters if they obey debate club rules when they talk to you, right? It's so much easier to just shut down and stop listening when they break your arbitrary rules for respectability.

I'm done trying to talk some sense into people who have absolutely no intention of listening. Micamo out.
sorry
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 16:36

Micamo wrote:I am so fucking sick of privileged people treating the very existence of systemic oppressions like it's a fucking debate club, a position to be entertained and dissected but never to actually be believed. I tell you society discriminates against my mental illness and disability, and you say "What about language change." I tell you society discriminates against transgender people, and you say "What about my inconvenience." I get (rightfully) frustrated and you *still* treat this like it's a debate club, "That's a strawman argument it's not valid."

Because someone's humanity only matters if they obey debate club rules when they talk to you, right? It's so much easier to just shut down and stop listening when they break your arbitrary rules for respectability.

I'm done trying to talk some sense into people who have absolutely no intention of listening. Micamo out.
Why should we unquestioningly accept your worldview when you don't unquestioningly accept ours? Everything is up for debate and the only way to change people's views is to argue that and to convince. It takes a lot more convincing and rumination before anyone actually changes their belief. Additionally you can't expect anyone to fundamentally change their worldviews until after years of such ruminations.
Last edited by Ahzoh on Fri 14 Oct 2016, 16:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 16:38

What Ahzoh said. I know you're frustrated because it seems like people aren't listening or are treating something that you see as unquestionable as debatable, but really anything is debatable. And acting like it's not or dismissing the other arguments makes it seem like your position isn't as strongly supported as you believe it to be.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Micamo » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 16:54

k1234567890y wrote:sorry
Not talking about you.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by OTʜᴇB » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 18:51

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:What Ahzoh said. I know you're frustrated because it seems like people aren't listening or are treating something that you see as unquestionable as debatable, but really anything is debatable. And acting like it's not or dismissing the other arguments makes it seem like your position isn't as strongly supported as you believe it to be.
[+1]

Not that Micamo is guilty of this, but I have had many a discussion in the past where I state a case and am only told I'm "wrong". These discussions go through this constant exchange of me either adding to, rephrasing, or backing up my case, while the opposition's case relies only on caps lock, strawman, and ad hominem fallacies. Eventually I resort to just explaining why they aren't getting anywhere and, with their approach, will never get anywhere and cannot even begin to convince me. I do play the friendly card too and out-right try and teach them ways in which they can construct better arguments to do better in future discussions with anyone. Guess how that's responded to...

I think some kind of "logical thought/critical thinking" or "how to have a civilised discussion" subject should be added to the school curriculum. I'd like to think it would greatly reduce the number of caps lock battles and greatly increase the open-minded-ness of people.

But yes Micamo. I'm by no means a particularly empathetic person, but I can tell you're not happy. I think it would be valuable not only to you, but to all of us as well, if you were to construct a case for your side of the discussion. Try not to beg the question or use loaded questions as that makes it hard to properly discuss. And in the same way we are not mindlessly dismissing what you have to say, you should not do the same to us, nor should any of us assume our beliefs to be universal truths.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by gestaltist » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 18:55

Micamo wrote:I am so fucking sick of privileged people treating the very existence of systemic oppressions like it's a fucking debate club, a position to be entertained and dissected but never to actually be believed. I tell you society discriminates against my mental illness and disability, and you say "What about language change." I tell you society discriminates against transgender people, and you say "What about my inconvenience." I get (rightfully) frustrated and you *still* treat this like it's a debate club, "That's a strawman argument it's not valid."

Because someone's humanity only matters if they obey debate club rules when they talk to you, right? It's so much easier to just shut down and stop listening when they break your arbitrary rules for respectability.

I'm done trying to talk some sense into people who have absolutely no intention of listening. Micamo out.
So basically "my way or the highway." It makes me sad to read this, as for me debate is a way to understand things, and evolve. Believe it or not, the conversation with Ebon was important to me and I feel I understand trans people and myself a little better than I did two days ago.

And I will call out straw man arguments because they aren't fair. The goal doesn't justify the means. I respect your goal in this conversation but I would like to see respect to go both ways. Sorry Micamo, but you're not gonna convince anyone with "repeat after me" stunts. I think this is a little bit of self-fulfilling prophecy. You're convinced "the other side" won't believe you anyway. So you approach the conversation with an attitude that makes the interlocutors feel somewhat bullied, if I'm being quite honest. No one likes bullying so nobody's getting convinced. Your initial suspicion is confirmed. Wash, rinse, repeat.

EDIT: we've shared many a talk here and on IRC. Do I really strike you as the kind of person you portray here? Can you honestly say I don't try to empathize, believe, and understand? I would be very surprised and saddened if you said "yes" to any of that.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 19:02

Typical online SJW behaviour however.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Egerius » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 19:06

Can we, uh, start looking for a different topic now?
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by OTʜᴇB » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 19:07

Egerius wrote:Can we, uh, start looking for a different topic now?
Yes. It's probably for the best. Any particular topic you had in mind?
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 19:09

The effects of colonialism in Africa.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by OTʜᴇB » Fri 14 Oct 2016, 19:26

Ahzoh wrote:The effects of colonialism in Africa.
How about something a little more light-hearted?
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