The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Xonen » Wed 14 Mar 2018, 16:56

Egerius wrote:
Wed 14 Mar 2018, 13:49
I came to know this via Facebook, and I immediately checked Wikipedia.

This man exceeded well beyond any expectation. He was born on the day Galileo Galilei died 300 years before him, and he died 139 years after Albert Einstein's birth. Aren't those strange coincidences?
I'm choosing to believe he got invited to Einstein's birthday party and decided that right, maybe those two years he was given in 1963 are just about up now, anyway. Sad day for the rest of us, in any case. [:(]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Wed 14 Mar 2018, 18:12

Egerius wrote:
Wed 14 Mar 2018, 13:49
I came to know this via Facebook, and I immediately checked Wikipedia.

This man exceeded well beyond any expectation. He was born on the day Galileo Galilei died 300 years before him, and he died 139 years after Albert Einstein's birth. Aren't those strange coincidences?
I would say these things are no strange coincidence at all!

But that's just me.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis » Thu 15 Mar 2018, 06:12

When Stephen Jay Gould and Stephen Ambrose passed away, I thought, via the Law of Triples, that Stephen Hawking was going to be next.

It didn't happen that way.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 » Fri 23 Mar 2018, 16:37

So, someone I work with mentioned that someone she knows is selling on some baby bearded dragons that their male and female adult pair had, to which I said "no, stop tempting me". Got home, told my mum that bit, then she got in touch with the person I work with without telling me and... well, in 5 weeks I'll have two baby bearded dragons as an early birthday present.

Already decided that I'm naming one of them Grom, but my mum wants to name the other one (which I guess is fair since I named the cat Odie). Wondering if I come up with a name first, that my mum might like, whether she'll give in and let me name the second one too, lol (thinking Elva or Tora, possibly Omela or Mora, if it's female, maybe Kral or Leto if it's male).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Shemtov » Fri 23 Mar 2018, 22:57

This is more of a truncated rant then a question and is very meta, but: Why the eff did they use Xhosa for Black Panther instead of bringing in DJP like they did for Thor 2? And if they were going to use a natlang, given where Wakanda is, Xhosa makes NO EFFING SENSE. Use a Cushitic, NE Coast or Great Lakes Bantu language instead! :mrred:
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 24 Mar 2018, 04:59

Shemtov wrote:
Fri 23 Mar 2018, 22:57
This is more of a truncated rant then a question and is very meta, but: Why the eff did they use Xhosa for Black Panther instead of bringing in DJP like they did for Thor 2? And if they were going to use a natlang, given where Wakanda is, Xhosa makes NO EFFING SENSE. Use a Cushitic, NE Coast or Great Lakes Bantu language instead! :mrred:
I honestly think it's just because when Americans think about African languages, the first trait to come to mind is click consonants.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by alynnidalar » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 03:49

I think part of the reason they used Xhosa to begin with in Civil War was because John Kani, who played T'Chaka (T'Challa's father), natively speaks it. Then, they just continued using it into Black Panther.

Also, there was a very clear "pan-African" sort of look to Wakanda--lots of things from various different parts of Africa, all brought together to one place. So their use of Xhosa might have been part of that as well, that they aren't pinning down Wakanda to a single part of Africa. You can debate whether this was a good decision, but I don't think it was either accident or ignorance that led them to use Xhosa.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by sangi39 » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 15:55

This is actually brought up on the MCU Wiki, which says that Wakanda in the films is bordered by Kenya, Uganda, South Sudan, Ethiopia on the western coast of Lake Turkana, further stating:
However, while the Wakandan language is likely to be a Bantu language (like Xhosa is) given its location, Xhosa is spoken in southern Africa, far from where Wakanda is said to be. Additionally, given Wakandan traditions that in the comics are said to derive from Ancient Egypt,[8] the Wakandan language may also be Afro-Asiatic.
Footnote [8] linking to the Marvel Comics Wiki page on Wakanda and its religion, which in the comics is heavily influenced by Ancient Egyptian religion, hence the worship of deities such as Bast, Sekhmet and Sobek (although I haven't seen the film yet to know if these are mentioned in the MCU version).

A Bantu language isn't unreasonable, given that it borders several countries which have Bantu-speaking populations, but yeah, the use of Xhosa rather than, say, Swahili (which, for example, Lupita Nyong'o is fluent in) seems to be mostly down to "we had a Xhosa speaker the last time, so can't really change that".
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
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That they all still believe in you.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 17:21

Egyptian religion…Bantu language

I'm sure, if they're smart, they'll make the religious language a Bantu basolect, with heavy importations from Middle Egyptian

(sort of like heavy theology-derived :grc: doses in Coptic, for example, or a lot of ecclesiastical :lat: into Old :eng:, for another).

There is mention in several places of different Wakandan writing systems: one more ornate for older, ritualistic language, and newer, simpler symbols for day to day/demotic use.

Here's hoping it gets reflected in the spoken speech. [;)]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis » Sun 25 Mar 2018, 22:31

All4Ɇn wrote:
Sat 24 Mar 2018, 04:59
I honestly think it's just because when Americans think about African languages, the first trait to come to mind is click consonants.
Yep. Starvin' Marvin spoke a click language even though he was from Ethiopia. Ethiopia!
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Shemtov » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 01:43

So, by the definition of “Racism” commonly used today, despite the praise it got from African-Americans, Scientifically) the choice of Xhosa is empirically racist. As I noted, it is Hollywood, but by hiring the DJP to create “Dark Elvish” for Thor 2, Marvel Studios have upped the bar for themselves. It seems like a double standard for them to commission a whole language for a completely fictitious Alien Species, who they knew might only appear in one film, and turn around and ignore the Science of an IRL Continent’s linguistic diversity. Wakandan should sound nothing like Xhosa, but rather like Swahili, Luganda or a Surmic language, with maybe an accent from one of the other languages.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Shemtov » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 01:55

sangi39 wrote:
Sun 25 Mar 2018, 15:55


A Bantu language isn't unreasonable, given that it borders several countries which have Bantu-speaking populations, but yeah, the use of Xhosa rather than, say, Swahili (which, for example, Lupita Nyong'o is fluent in) seems to be mostly down to "we had a Xhosa speaker the last time, so can't really change that".
Luganda, maybe with a speech trainer adding a Surmic accent, would have made the most sense, given that the name looks close to Uganda: Wa=U Kanda+Ganda.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Frislander » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 14:56

I've already ranted about this at length on my Tumblr, and I would agree with the Swahili/Luganda/Surmic idea. And yeah as it's Tumblr some people have objected to this idea; I'm still refuting counterpoints even just today.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Shemtov » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 16:19

Frislander wrote:
Wed 28 Mar 2018, 14:56
I've already ranted about this at length on my Tumblr, and I would agree with the Swahili/Luganda/Surmic idea. And yeah as it's Tumblr some people have objected to this idea; I'm still refuting counterpoints even just today.
I posted about it on a comics forum and it got taken down as being too offensive. I think that, as a white guy, it's best for me to wait to see if someone like, say, John McWhorter would respond to the movie as a Black linguist.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by alynnidalar » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 20:50

I hesitate to broach the question with you, but what, precisely, do you mean by "the definition of 'Racism' commonly used today"?

The usual definition I see would be something like "believing certain races to be better than others [and acting on this belief]" or "treating different races differently" or "prejudice (against certain races) + power", and I'm not sure how that applies to the use of Xhosa.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Shemtov » Wed 28 Mar 2018, 23:35

alynnidalar wrote:
Wed 28 Mar 2018, 20:50
I hesitate to broach the question with you, but what, precisely, do you mean by "the definition of 'Racism' commonly used today"?

The usual definition I see would be something like "believing certain races to be better than others [and acting on this belief]" or "treating different races differently" or "prejudice (against certain races) + power", and I'm not sure how that applies to the use of Xhosa.
An extension of the "all people of X skin color look alike" racism, to "all people of X skin color's ancestral language sounds alike". But as I said, unless a Black Linguist criticizes it based on that, I can't as I'm white. Besides, whatever’s going on, even if offensive, is not “Racism”. There are non-Black people in Africa, and not just from colonization (though talking of the linguistic diversity Afrikaans is a colonial language native to Africa). There’s Arabs, Berbers (some of whom could pass as “Tanned Caucasians”) and Copts- there are two Copts in one of my classes, and they are even paler then me. So ignoring the Linguistic Diversity of Africa isn’t really tied to Black people or even “Racism” in general.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Khemehekis » Thu 29 Mar 2018, 02:25

Shemtov wrote:
Wed 28 Mar 2018, 23:35
An extension of the "all people of X skin color look alike" racism, to "all people of X skin color's ancestral language sounds alike". But as I said, unless a Black Linguist criticizes it based on that, I can't as I'm white. Besides, whatever’s going on, even if offensive, is not “Racism”. There are non-Black people in Africa, and not just from colonization (though talking of the linguistic diversity Afrikaans is a colonial language native to Africa). There’s Arabs, Berbers (some of whom could pass as “Tanned Caucasians”) and Copts- there are two Copts in one of my classes, and they are even paler then me. So ignoring the Linguistic Diversity of Africa isn’t really tied to Black people or even “Racism” in general.
Hmmm . . . I'm Jewish too, and I don't identify as White. I identify as Middle Eastern.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 29 Mar 2018, 10:15

Shemtov wrote:
Fri 23 Mar 2018, 22:57
This is more of a truncated rant then a question and is very meta, but: Why the eff did they use Xhosa for Black Panther instead of bringing in DJP like they did for Thor 2? And if they were going to use a natlang, given where Wakanda is, Xhosa makes NO EFFING SENSE. Use a Cushitic, NE Coast or Great Lakes Bantu language instead! :mrred:
Though most cannon points closer south in/around Uganda~Ethiopia, I would have said Kush/Nubia, or it's descendant:

https://www.egyptos.net/egyptos/photos/ ... _1096.html

https://goo.gl/images/Q33hRc

T'Challa & T'Chaka sound not to far off from famous Nubian Kushite king Taharqua. :wat:
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 29 Mar 2018, 10:28

alynnidalar wrote:
Sun 25 Mar 2018, 03:49
Also, there was a very clear "pan-African" sort of look to Wakanda--lots of things from various different parts of Africa, all brought together to one place.
Pan-africanism, hmmm, indeed. In fact, Killmonger gave me a certain vibe of Henry Belsidius of the Black Internationale. Doctor Belsidius is one of the main agonists in Black Empire by George Schuyler. Despite Schuyler calling his own writing 'hokum and hack work of the purest vein', it is an interesting thought experiment from the 1930s, despite its shortcomings.

:wat:
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 29 Mar 2018, 10:40

sangi39 wrote:
Sun 25 Mar 2018, 15:55
Footnote [8] linking to the Marvel Comics Wiki page on Wakanda and its religion, which in the comics is heavily influenced by Ancient Egyptian religion, hence the worship of deities such as Bast, Sekhmet and Sobek (although I haven't seen the film yet to know if these are mentioned in the MCU version).
Bast, Sekhmet, Sobek, and Hanuman [o.O]
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The original name of the Gorilla deity was Ghekre in the comics, apparently.

Sorry to quibble, but Hanuman in Africa stuck out like a sore thumb.

Wuddup wit dat, MCU? Quo vaditis, True Believers? :roll:
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