Las Vegas mass shooting

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Las Vegas mass shooting

Post by Lao Kou » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 14:11

Although I live in China, I'm finding it really tough, as an American, not getting emotionally sucked into today's events in Las Vegas. America, what are you DOING?!

(Burma, Catalonia... other things are going on -- but America, what are you DOING?!)
Last edited by Lao Kou on Mon 02 Oct 2017, 14:31, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by DesEsseintes » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 14:16

Lao Kou wrote:Although I live in China, I'm finding it really tough, as an American, not getting emotionally sucked into today's events in Las Vegas. America, what are you DOING?!

(Burma, Catalonia... other things are going on -- but America, what are you DOING?!)
Indeed. I'm tempted to exclaim an out-of-character WTF!?
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 16:17

Lao Kou wrote:America, what are you DOING?!
I hadn't heard about the shooting yet when I first saw this, so the way you phrased this made me assume the government ("America") had done something. I think it's rather indicative of the times we live in that I wasn't too surprised by that assumption.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 17:14

Thrice Xandvii wrote:...no cafeteria!? Does everyone bring their own lunch? And where do they eat it?

Our school was smallish, and we weren't allowed to leave the building during lunch except during Exam Week. Also, living in WI, it would be ridiculous to have outdoor hallways. We also didn't have any kind of "quad." In fact, I'm still not totally sure what that is... *Goes to look it up*
Yep, they bring it from home. There's always something available for kids who couldn't bring a lunch, but most do. In elementary and middle school (I was homeschooled until I was 14, but I know from what my friends have told me), there are picnic tables outside to sit at, separated by grade. On days when it rains, people go in the gym or classrooms to eat. Here in my high school, people mostly just stand on "the green" and eat lunch, some people sit on the few tables there or in the outdoor halls, or some nerdy kids like me spend lunch in a certain teacher's classroom and eat there. It depends.
DesEsseintes wrote: Indeed. I'm tempted to exclaim an out-of-character WTF!?
I woke up to 12 news alerts on my phone and I immediately thought "uh oh"... [:(] Don't even really know what to think about these kinds of things anymore. I always assume the worst and I'm often right. Can't believe the two deadliest shootings happened in two consecutive years. I can't even imagine what next year will bring...
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 00:04

Lao Kou wrote:Although I live in China, I'm finding it really tough, as an American, not getting emotionally sucked into today's events in Las Vegas. America, what are you DOING?!

(Burma, Catalonia... other things are going on -- but America, what are you DOING?!)
Well, óne of them went cracked conkers last night.

What it can mean, what it might lead to, I don't know. I know only that this country is in the middle of a now very long and very deep crisis. This guy is just the most recent symptom of the sickness.

All very sad. [:'(] [:'(] [:'(]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Axiem » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 01:01

Personally, I'm more surprised it took until 2017 for someone who wanted to kill a lot of people to figure out how to accomplish it this way.

When I saw the CNN chyron this morning, I'd actually started assuming it was an updated Puerto Rico casualty count. Then I finished reading and learned that it was a shooting...then just kept walking.

It's appalling, but shouldn't be surprising. We'll see another one soon enough, and there's a good chance it'll be worse.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 01:28

Boomtown Rats - I don't like Mondays
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08-Ukv_0Sbo

They can see no reasons
Cuz there are no reasons;
What reasons do you need?

[:(]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Znex » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 02:05

Axiem wrote:Personally, I'm more surprised it took until 2017 for someone who wanted to kill a lot of people to figure out how to accomplish it this way.
I remember hearing about there being a planned shooting at a big concert recently in Sydney, but we managed to prepare so it never happened. I dunno the exact details though.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 05:18

Axiem wrote:Personally, I'm more surprised it took until 2017 for someone who wanted to kill a lot of people to figure out how to accomplish it this way.

When I saw the CNN chyron this morning, I'd actually started assuming it was an updated Puerto Rico casualty count. Then I finished reading and learned that it was a shooting...then just kept walking.

It's appalling, but shouldn't be surprising. We'll see another one soon enough, and there's a good chance it'll be worse.
I wish you were wrong. It seems our crazies keep learning better ways to kill people and commit this particular variety of domestic terrorism. What is perhaps making this worse, is the complete lack of movement with regard to gun regulations and the continued distraction that #45 creates (as well as certain elements of Congress and the NRA which has blocked legislation over the years) centered around xenophobic ridiculousness. It's been a case where we (and by we I mean those who already had issues with these groups and now the rest of us are having these non-issues thrust upon us) are so busy being mad at Arab nations, Mexicans and black folks that we can't seem to solve our actual problems: wealth disparities and our disgusting penchant for ever more violent shootings/bombings, etc.

I just. I just don't even know what to think anymore. I mean, I should be horrified and shocked, but at this point, I have lived to see so many shootings... starting with Columbine when I was in school, and if we want to include other attacks we have McVeigh's bombing, the Unabomber, the anthrax letter scares, Boston Marathon attack, further school shootings, the attack on the movie theater during one of the Batman flicks, etc., etc., ad nauseum.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 07:13

I believe this to be a good point on the matter:
Rosa Negra wrote:Thoughts on the Las Vegas shooting .... We should be talking about a society that breeds people who feel no attachment to those around them, one where we dehumanize people around us to the point where this is possible. We should be talking about a near global masculinity that favors violent reactions to everything. We can talk about guns, but we better not forget the social realities that bring men to do shit like this.
Sadly, this is just par for the course in this society and it'll be gone before you know it.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 07:22

Ahzoh wrote:I believe this to be a good point on the matter:
Rosa Negra wrote:Thoughts on the Las Vegas shooting .... We should be talking about a society that breeds people who feel no attachment to those around them, one where we dehumanize people around us to the point where this is possible. We should be talking about a near global masculinity that favors violent reactions to everything. We can talk about guns, but we better not forget the social realities that bring men to do shit like this.
Again, this isn't wrong. However, it seems to me that attempting to change the psychology of a large portion of the country (and possibly the world) is a task that will take generations to finish. Getting rid of easy access to ridiculous weapons should be something that is achievable in a much shorter time. And while I am under no delusions that gun control will fix the issues (it won't) it will however be a good way to limit the access of those who only think to do these things because the means to achieve it is so readily available... like when I decide to eat more pretzels since we have them in the house. When I don't buy snacks and they aren't sitting around, I tend not to go through the effort to go to the store just when I feel peckish. So it could be that some shootings will be avoided simply because there wasn't a ton of planning and a gun wasn't just sitting around in their environ.

But, as some will counter, yes, the truly determined will find a way. In those cases, I think we have to engage the bigger problem to help to eliminate that threat. It takes a lot more effort and heavily lifting to tackle that one. Unfortunately, those who luv da guns find it difficult to admit that they really and truly don't need weapons lying around. Especially not guns that aren't handguns, or could be used effectively to hunt wild game. (No one needs an AK-47 or some variety of AR just chilling in their home. I'm sorry, as cool as they are, they are so incredibly not necessary to any non-military combatant.)

In other words, gun control/removal is the low-hanging fruit that could save lives. Bigger societal change is a long-term, but necessary, step thereafter once we have some safety measures in place.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 07:36

I used to believe in gun control, but then I realized that there is truth in those rightwingers' paranoia about the government disarming the masses, but for different reasons.

Consider this:
https://facebook.com/NEKSJBGC/photos/a. ... 8&__tn__=R

This source further elaborates:
http://www.marxist.com/gun-control-and- ... quote]When capitalist politicians call for “gun control,” they are really saying that the working class majority should give more power to the bourgeois state in determining who should have access to arms. The capitalist class would breathe a sigh of relief at the complete disarmament of the working class. The capitalist state would then have a complete monopoly of arms, on top of its monopoly of the courts, prisons, police, spy agencies, military, etc.

Therefore, from the point of view of the capitalist class, the real essence of “gun control” is not the disarming of criminal elements or unstable individuals—who would still have access to guns through illegal channels—it is the disarming of the working class on the whole.

We have seen how this has been used in the past. When the Black Panthers had arms for self-defense, the bourgeois state violently attacked them. Far-right groups, on the other hand, are armed to the teeth and the state typically looks the other way.

The United States has a long history of gun violence on the part of the state against immigrants, blacks, and against the working class on the whole, especially when they dare to struggle. Nearly every major labor battle in the U.S. has been marked with violent attacks by the state against the striking workers. As one boss infamously put it, his striking workers needed to be “shot back to work.” Against this overwhelming force of the capitalist state, the working class must defend its basic democratic right to defend itself and its organizations, including its right to access arms.[/quote]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 08:23

See, there's a logical flaw there: there is really no level of gun ownership that the average citizen can have that would allow us to foment a successful militia-based overthrow of the government. The US military has a vast amount of missiles, strategic defense satellites, battleships, tanks, RPGs, etc, etc. If you really think that a bunch of kooks with the guns that are legally allowed at present will help you take the country back from the evil capitalists that have already won in pretty much every way... then I also have this wonderful bridge in Uganda I'd like to sell you (payment in advance, as is).

(I do see the problem that exists there... but I don't think keeping morons armed is the answer to it.)
Spoiler:
For future reference, I will never click on a Facebook link for further reading... no matter what it is. I do appreciate the second source of info... too bad it's so bias against capitalism being as bad as the gun violence that I couldn't get through the first paragraph.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 08:34

Nobody expects to be able to combat the full force of the US army, not even private citizens with the most powerful weapons available now. This isn't the 1700s. Although every revolutionist hopes to win the hearts and minds of the military and the police as has happened before. Sadly I don't think a revolution will happen in my lifetime, but I sense it's coming to a boiling point.

It's counterintuitive but it's actually more irrational to settle for anything less than letting kooks remain armed and arming the rest of the country who aren't kooks. In stunning irony, gun control actually protects the heavily-armed rightwing gun nuts.

What every gun owner needs is training. It isn't about going free market and unregulated on guns, but people need to be armed and trained RESPONSIBLY. Not become the rightwing ammosexuals. Then at least every oppressed person has a fighting chance against state oppression, just like the Black Panther Party (who are demonized as a black supremacist terrorist group).
too bad it isn't so bias toward capitalism being as bad as the gun violence that I couldn't get through the first paragraph.
Yes, it is too bad. Capitalism IS bad, and I've seen and read enough to determine this.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:02

It should read: "too bad it's so bias against..."

I think I kinda stopped in mid thought and then attempted to finish the sentence without fully remembering where I was going with it.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:06

Ahzoh wrote:Nobody expects to be able to combat the full force of the US army[...]
Ummm... then I fail to see how you can stand by your earlier point... If they can never win, why do they need weapons again?
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ànradh » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:30

Lao Kou wrote:Although I live in China, I'm finding it really tough, as an American, not getting emotionally sucked into today's events in Las Vegas. America, what are you DOING?!

(Burma,
Catalonia... other things are going on -- but America, what are you DOING?!)
I'm having a similar issue. Oh, the helpless rage.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:39

Thrice Xandvii wrote:However, it seems to me that attempting to change the psychology of a large portion of the country (and possibly the world) is a task that will take generations to finish.
And it's already been ongoing for eighty or so generations.

Sadly, I don't see any way to deal with this one kind of violence until we deal with all kinds. You can't stamp out this kind of random violence when you live in a culture that celebrates death and violence in so many other ways. Gun control laws will not do anything. I know the political Left like to trot this issue out as the panacea (I noticed that Mrs Clinton was on to that hours after the recent massacre). All that will do is máybe reduce the number of victims a single shooter can kill. It will definitely drive these kinds of people to seek out such weapons by other means.

I won't get all preachy, but the answer really is very simple, very easy. Seek the road that not only avoids violence and hatred, but the one that eschews it. And in every aspect of your life. Seek the road that affirms life and charity, the one that encourages and demands perfection.
In other words, gun control/removal is the low-hanging fruit that could save lives. Bigger societal change is a long-term, but necessary, step thereafter once we have some safety measures in place.
I don't really disagree with you, but I would ask, why aim for the lowest hanging fruit that will not, in the end, satisfy? Aim right for the apple that will truly resolve all these issues!
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ànradh » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:43

elemtilas wrote:I don't really disagree with you, but I would ask, why aim for the lowest hanging fruit that will not, in the end, satisfy? Aim right for the apple that will truly resolve all these issues!
'Why replace hempen ropes with steel cables when we could be aiming for carbon nanotube cables?'
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:50

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Nobody expects to be able to combat the full force of the US army[...]
Ummm... then I fail to see how you can stand by your earlier point... If they can never win, why do they need weapons again?
I think what he's saying there is that the US Army is not like the DPRK Army, for example. There is little ideological indoctrination. There is no cult of leadership in the US. Soldiers are not taught to follow the orders of the brilliant leader blindly and without thought. Same goes for police. They are a force that can be swayed because they are a force that is not loyal to corrupt capitalists (or socialists or womanizers or whatever individual is in charge) but are loyal to the Constitution, to an ideal that exists apart from any one person or governing body. If enough armed citizens rise up against the corruption of a government and if their cause is just and Constitutional, then, by rights, the Army ought either to stand down or join with the Constitutional revolt.

Ideally, such a revolt will be bloodless. Ideally, it will pressure the executive to resign a/o the legislature to call for a second Constitutional Convention before resigning. A new government would then be elected and life should hopefully go on with renewed sense of patriotism, apple pie, a chicken in ever garage and brand new Chevy for everyone.

Or something like that.
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