Communism [split]

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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by qwed117 » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 13:43

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elemtilas wrote: No worries, comrade! We're already 100% liberated!
Because of the efforts of our practically socialist government between 1901 and 1921 and between 1933 and 1978. Also I think this is a bit of the ol' "How can there be world hunger when there's plenty of food in my pantry".
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 16:10

Oh boy.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by DesEsseintes » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 17:14

It would seem Ahzoh has brought out Lao Kou's inner troll. [xD]

I also fully echo Brother Kou's sentiment.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 17:31

DesEsseintes wrote:It would seem Ahzoh has brought out Lao Kou's inner troll. [xD]
It was inside him all along.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 18:11

qwed117 wrote:
elemtilas wrote: No worries, comrade! We're already 100% liberated!
Because of the efforts of our practically socialist government between 1901 and 1921 and between 1933 and 1978. Also I think this is a bit of the ol' "How can there be world hunger when there's plenty of food in my pantry".
I shouldn’t think so! We were liberated from long time before. As I said, liberty comes from no economic system, no government and no person.

DesEsseintes wrote:It would seem Ahzoh has brought out Lao Kou's inner troll. [xD]

I also fully echo Brother Kou's sentiment.
Perhaps, though honestly I do not believe it was Ahzoh personally who did this. If he were this moonstricken by, I don't know, Greenpeace or something, I don't think anyone would more than bat an eyelash. It's just that colossal stupidity of that kind requires response. As far as I know, Ahzoh lives a life of the blessed here in the good ol' USA. He has no fucking clue what poverty is, no fucking clue what oppression is, no fucking clue what revolution means, what Communism entails or what history can teach. Like many young people, he's been bedazzled and entrapped by the good-seeming words and wholesome-seeming ideals of that region of the social-political spectrum.

Sometimes I wish there were a vaccine against stupid ideas of that sort!
Lao Kou wrote:Oh, you just don't understand.
Too true to be funny, my good sir!, but well & pointedly stated all the same!
Lambuzhao wrote:
There is no true liberty under this kind of system, as history has demonstrated over and over again. Mostly it's just death, violence & terror. And anything but freedom!
I am still learning the names, faces and lives of long-lost relatives in Uzhgorod :ukr: whose existences were cut short by the Glorious Revolution.
[:'(] [:'(] [:'(] Remember them. [:'(] [:'(] [:'(]
[¬.¬] [¬.¬] [¬.¬] Teach the next generation. [¬.¬] [¬.¬] [¬.¬]
[<3] [<3] [<3] Make sure they don’t forget. [<3] [<3] [<3]

Hate to say it, but sometimes the only way younger folks can ever learn an important lesson is, apart from repeating the mistakes of the past as young Ahzoh is preparing himself to do, is to have that lesson beaten into their skulls full of mush over and over again until maybe a scant few percent of it sticks. This is why the Holocaust of the Jews under Hitler is so well known by young folks today and why Hitler and Nazism are so well and truly reviled.

It is a shame that the Holocausts under Communism are so poorly understood. And also why Communism and Socialism are not also so well and truly reviled.

How many know that Glorious Revolutionary Stalin killed millions of his own? Your dear family can count somewhere between perhaps 8 and 60 million neighbours across the USSR and Mongolia who crossed over with them. Estimates vary, but probably no fewer than 15 million. That's fifteen-fucking-MILLION.

And how about Glorious Revolutionary Chariman Mao? At least four million killed. Most likely more.

And Glorious Revolutionary Leader Pol Pot? Two and a half million — out of a population of 7 million. Not bad at all!

Lesser numbers were murdered by the Glorious Revolutionaries in Romania, Hungary, East Germany, Bulgaria, Vietnam, Occupied Tibet and Ethiopia.

And how about Glorious Revolutionary Castro? Or Glorious Revolutionary and God-President-for-Life Jongun Twinkieboy Kim? We have no clue. Won’t know until those failed regimes are at last toppled and records can be studied.

Yes indeed. Huzzah for the Red and Gold! Let’s lift up the golden hammer and sickle for the progress of all humanity!

And prompty dash in the heads and slice the throats of all humanity who dare stand in the way!

Stupid.

I hated politics when I was younger and disdain it even more now. The history of politics in general, but of Socialism, Communism and Nazism in specific make me viscerally ill. So, no, dear misguided child, you can have your fecking communism and shove your little notions of worthless revolt right up your jacksie where it belongs.

All of that blood and waste of human potential and destruction of life for what end, Ahzoh, for what good and noble purpose? You tell me!
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 18:12

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
DesEsseintes wrote:It would seem Ahzoh has brought out Lao Kou's inner troll. [xD]
It was inside him all along.
That troll is inside many of us.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 18:22

I often hear it said "but communism works on paper!" and I don't really think it even works on paper. [xP] Places like China and Vietnam have increased their economic growth by becoming more capitalism-friendly and less strictly communist. To me communism seems like a tried and tested fad in the 20th century that proved to be a colossal failure. That said, I recognize that a completely unfettered capitalist system is no good either (the Great Depression being a repercussion of that) and that some socialist or socialist-like policies are needed for the ideal system.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. I'll go back to hiding in my corner now [:$]
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 18:55

Ah this entire page is miles and miles of smug liberal garbage and anti-communist propaganda regurgitated by the government. Y'all are feasting straight from the garbage can of ideology.

It is rather like me on the bus while y'all are on the merry-go-round laughing at me:
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You should be aware that every single communist today isn't planning on recreating the USSR or other past regimes, nor would it be possible to even do so since the material conditions are different.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:13

Ahzoh wrote:Ah this entire page is miles and miles of smug liberal garbage and anti-communist propaganda regurgitated by the government.

It is rather like me on the bus while y'all are on the merry-go-round laughing at me:
Spoiler:
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No propaganda. You're a fool if you think it's all just anti-Communism propaganda. Here's where your bus is taking you.

Do enjoy the ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO2IAwWl35A
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:19

As I've already told you, we aren't planning on recreating old regimes. Get that silly idea out of your head.

And you say you're not posting anti-communist propaganda yet you are. Even things that are true are propaganda, like that video which is not premised on criticizing the mistakes of communist regimes but on bashing communism as a whole. It is a blatant lie derived from years of government propaganda to say communism is nothing but death and suffering and violence. There is death and violence, but that is because revolution is a struggle for freedom.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:24

Ahzoh wrote:As I've already told you, we aren't planning on recreating old regimes.
So said they all. Every single one of them thought that they had the clinch on True Communism. That only they were capable of the Real Revolution.
And you say you're not posting anti-communist propaganda yet you are.
It's hardly propaganda when it's their own videos and photographs being shown to you. It's the truth behind the dehumanization of your chosen political flirtation.

Learn it, loathe it, get the hell away from it!
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:28

The USSR and China are not the only "communist" regimes. There are several others, like Yugoslavia under Tito. A lot of high quality typewriters come from Tito's Yugoslavia. There is also Burkino-Faso under Thomas Sankara.

It is propaganda. Everything is. Even things that are true. Especially if those things are used to support an angle. In this case the suffering of those people are used as anti-communist rhetoric.

My "chosen political flirtation" doesn't dehumanize people. It liberates them. Communism isn't about famines and death camps. That's propaganda.
See, you're already going on a raving mad anti-communist rant and I can only sense it's from your years of being pounded by government propaganda during the 60s and 70s Red Scare days.
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by elemtilas » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:33

Ahzoh wrote:The USSR and China are not the only "communist" regimes.

It is propaganda. Everything is. Even things that are true. Especially if those things are used to support an angle. In this case the suffering of those people are used as anti-communist rhetoric.

My "chosen political flirtation" doesn't dehumanize people. It liberates them. Communism isn't about famines and death camps. That's propaganda.
:roll:

I think perhaps it's time for this threadlet to be sequestered and shut. Let's try to be more creative and productive, rather than seeking down paths of destruction!
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 19:35

I certainly don't want you to continue your rather uninformed tirade of communism-bashing...
In response to earlier arguments:

There's lots of practically grandpas I know, even people older than you all, who are communists so I won't hear that "communism is a young person's ideology, you'll mellow out when you're older" garbage. Garbage pure unadulterated garbage, right from the trashcan of ideology!

Futhermore, yes a lot of people do lack class consciousness; they are not aware that they're being exploited, who is exploiting them, the full extent of their exploitation, or the true nature of the world they live in. It is in the same way people may not be aware how they are racist or sexist or transphobic or homophobic. Or worse, they might think they're not racist or sexist or transphobic or homophobic but they really are and quite terribly so. Make sense? I suggest you read up on "base and superstructure".

From the moment we're born we're bombarded with ridiculous amounts of propaganda and taught terrible behaviours as we grow up. It isn't at all far from the truth to say everyone is basically brainwashed until they stumble upon the right nugget of truth that raises their consciousness a bit. For many people these days, it took the whole election bullshit and Bernie Sanders to realize that capitalism needs to be replaced, not reformed.
Is is possible that some of us have ever read Marx and Engels?
Is it possible that some of us have ever thought about these things?
Is it possible that some of us may not reach the same conclusions as "Red Montana"?
Yes, just like a creationist can look at an evolution textbook and think about evolution and quite still be a creationist. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
You want example of how strong and prevalent anti-communist propaganda is? Try explaining communism and socialism to random people without using the word socialism and communism. You'll find they easily agree with the idea. But as soon you mention it's called socialism and communism they are opposed to it, it's like this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord
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Re: Communism

Post by Xonen » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 20:20

Ahzoh wrote:Try explaining communism and socialism to random people without using the word socialism and communism. You'll find they easily agree with the idea.
Even with the "death and violence" part? Or are we supposed to come up with nice euphemisms for those?
Is is possible that some of us have ever read Marx and Engels?
Is it possible that some of us have ever thought about these things?
Is it possible that some of us may not reach the same conclusions as "Red Montana"?
Yes, just like a creationist can look at an evolution textbook and think about evolution and quite still be a creationist. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.
Indeed, it can be pretty much impossible to convince someone with absolute faith in the cosmic Truth of their views to think critically of them.
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Re: Communism

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 20:51

Ahzoh wrote:Even things that are true are propaganda...
I feel like this is a huge issue with your stance on this. While truth can be and is twisted, it seems like you refuse to believe that some of the things you've linked to aren't just as rife with it... It just happens to agree with your feelings.

Could it be that you are so enraptured that you can't see your own arguments flaws? (To be clear, that's rhetorical.)
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Re: The Quintessential 5th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 20:58

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:Even things that are true are propaganda...
I feel like this is a huge issue with your stance on this. While truth can be and is twisted, it seems like you refuse to believe that some of the things you've linked to aren't just as rife with it... It just happens to agree with your feelings.

Could it be that you are so enraptured that you can't see your own arguments flaws? (To be clear, that's rhetorical.)
Propaganda doesn't mean twist. Of course everything I post is rife with propaganda. Propaganda is a tool, after all. My memes are propaganda.
But communists don't need to lie; we are all explicit and public in our intentions and we make no joke about the violence we will do against our oppressors or the cost of life. The same cannot be said for capitalists. They use all sorts of tools to divide and deceive the working class; racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, nationalism, etc.

"There hasn't been a revolution in America because people don't think they're poor but temporarily embarassed millionaires".
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Re: Communism [split]

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 21:07

What flaws there are in my argument are simply in my presentation. The concept is awfully sound. Not perfect, but sound.
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Re: Communism [split]

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 21:11

Propaganda has a negative connotation for a reason... And yes, it pretty much does. It's hard to post truth for the purposes of propaganda without slanting it or twisting it around to exclude the facts you don't like while focusing only on those you do like and suit the object of your argument. For example, people who hold grisly signs (the actual photos) at abortion clinics are doing so for a clear purpose, but if they're medical photos then it's truth. Truth used to wound while not presenting the facts themselves about the context and actual processes that most often would occur. The same is true with any propaganda that aims at revolution.
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Re: Communism [split]

Post by Ahzoh » Sun 15 Oct 2017, 21:14

Literally everything is propaganda. It's a tool.
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