Overrated Historical people

Discussions regarding actual culture and history of Earth.
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Lambuzhao
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Lambuzhao » Sat 29 Mar 2014, 23:00

Thakowsaizmu wrote:This is difficult. On one hand, my mother was a pizza.
Hey! I saw the off-braodway production of My Mother was a Pizza. I thought it was quite rich and full of ethnic flavor, though it got mixed reviews. Go figure.
I have a strong connection to my pizzple.
So few Pizzites do nowadays. They prefer to cheese it at the first opportunity.
Though I myself am not 100% Pizzite, I still observe many Pizzite Holidays. Yom Kipepperoni is a big one.
That holiday gives me gurg. It gave "repeat the sounding joy" whole new meaning for me. [:(]
It's difficult to think that in this day and age, I mean come on it's 2014!, that someone could still be an anti-Pizzite. Then again, Lam has no particular love for Shakespeare, and in this culture of oversaturation and the mantra of sex sells Hamlets,
I'm not a big fan of Hamlet in particular. Yet I like ham. Again, go figure.
it is a rare find indeed to discover someone who sees through the sonnets of yonder window controlled mass media.
Well, thank you, I think.
Damn you, Lam! You're like an onion.
Correction: Like an onion who takes his bath.
Or soup a l'oignon au fromage.

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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Ahzoh » Fri 04 Apr 2014, 16:41

I am the kind of Pizzite that likes barbeque and bacon...
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Ànradh » Sat 05 Apr 2014, 23:51

Ahzoh wrote:I am the kind of Pizzite that likes barbeque and bacon...
An American? :P
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Shemtov » Sun 06 Apr 2014, 02:01

FDR.
He and the rest of the American government was an accessory to the Holocaust, and his staff should have been tried at Nuremburg.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Xonen » Mon 07 Apr 2014, 19:04

Shemtov wrote:FDR.
He and the rest of the American government was an accessory to the Holocaust
This I have not heard before. Could you elaborate on how, exactly?
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Shemtov » Tue 08 Apr 2014, 06:37

Xonen wrote:
Shemtov wrote:FDR.
He and the rest of the American government was an accessory to the Holocaust
This I have not heard before. Could you elaborate on how, exactly?
In 1941, FDR’s administration devised a harsh new immigration regulation that barred admission to anyone with close relatives in Europe, on the grounds that the Nazis might compel them to spy for Hitler by threatening their relatives. This included Jews who, may I remind you, relatives were threatened anyway. He also refused the refugee ship St. Louis entry into the US, which he could have accomplished by an executive order. Most of the passengers died in the death camps.*
Freda Kirchwey, staunch New Dealer, Roosevelt supporter said in 1943 “You and I and the President and the Congress and the State Department are accessories to the crime and share Hitler’s guilt....”


*Canadian PM William Lyon Mackenzie King also refused the ship's entrance into his country. Given that he was alive at the time, he should have been tried and hanged at Nuremburg.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Xonen » Tue 08 Apr 2014, 13:59

Shemtov wrote:Most of the passengers died in the death camps.*
Well, Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 25%, but that doesn't really affect the point... However, this was in 1939, which sort of does: according to what information I'm able to find, the full extent of what was going on in Germany - not to mention how it would escalate over the next few years - was simply not known at the time. So stating that people who failed to use their personal authority to override their countries' normal immigration procedures at that point should have been treated the same as some of the worst mass murderers in history seems a bit... extreme, to say the least. [:|]
Canadian PM William Lyon Mackenzie King also refused the ship's entrance into his country.
The same Wikipedia article gives me the impression that the ship never actually asked permission to come to Canada. Some people tried to encourage King to offer them sanctuary, but he was eventually persuaded not to do anything. Which with the benefit of hindsight can be called a terrible mistake, but as mentioned, there was no way he could have known at the time. Especially since it's not like the ship had no choice at that point but return to Germany - it didn't. It traveled to Belgium, and the passengers eventually settled in Belgium, the Netherlands, France and Britain, all of which at that time appeared relatively safe.

And really, if we were all judged by the actions we've failed to take in life, then I'm pretty sure every single one of us living in a first-world country could be considered technically guilty for at least a few counts of manslaughter by gross negligence. [:S]
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Ahzoh » Tue 08 Apr 2014, 14:18

Xonen wrote:
Shemtov wrote:Most of the passengers died in the death camps.*
Well, Wikipedia gives an estimate of about 25%, but that doesn't really affect the point... However, this was in 1939, which sort of does: according to what information I'm able to find, the full extent of what was going on in Germany - not to mention how it would escalate over the next few years - was simply not known at the time. So stating that people who failed to use their personal authority to override their countries' normal immigration procedures at that point should have been treated the same as some of the worst mass murderers in history seems a bit... extreme, to say the least. [:|]
Canadian PM William Lyon Mackenzie King also refused the ship's entrance into his country.
The same Wikipedia article gives me the impression that the ship never actually asked permission to come to Canada. Some people tried to encourage King to offer them sanctuary, but he was eventually persuaded not to do anything. Which with the benefit of hindsight can be called a terrible mistake, but as mentioned, there was no way he could have known at the time. Especially since it's not like the ship had no choice at that point but return to Germany - it didn't. It traveled to Belgium, and the passengers eventually settled in Belgium, the Netherlands, France and Britain, all of which at that time appeared relatively safe.

And really, if we were all judged by the actions we've failed to take in life, then I'm pretty sure every single one of us living in a first-world country could be considered technically guilty for at least a few counts of manslaughter by gross negligence. [:S]
My Canadian History Textbook and Teacher when I was studying Gr 9 history both said that the ship asked to go into Canada, but were refused, and that they ended up being "deported" back to Germany, where they were cuaght by German forces and killed.

Also learned that WLMK was a crappy PM.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by sangi39 » Tue 08 Apr 2014, 15:12

Xonen wrote: And really, if we were all judged by the actions we've failed to take in life, then I'm pretty sure every single one of us living in a first-world country could be considered technically guilty for at least a few counts of manslaughter by gross negligence. [:S]
[+1]

I know this comes from Cracked.com, but it does kind of illustrate a point, but in one article it states that in the Western world each person gets a new mobile phone roughly ever 12 to 18 months:
In China, improper disposal of handheld electronics has already tainted countless tons of rice with cadmium, chronic exposure to which causes kidney, liver, and lung failure. And cancer. And osteoporosis. The list goes on and on, and sadly not one item on it is a superpower.
The impact of trashing a device doesn't stop at pollution, because as soon as we commit those scarce metals to the landfill, more will have to be mined in order to make new iPhones -- and the mining process for one of the rarest elements found in almost every electronic device has created a real-life sequel to Blood Diamond. Coltan extraction has destroyed large tracts of Congo's rain forests and fueled rebel groups, killing millions of Congolese in the process. And thanks to the ad hoc nature of coltan mining, it's hard as hell to determine where exactly the stuff is coming from.
LINK

If that is indeed the case, then surely anyone who's bought a new mobile phone after their old one has been thrown in a landfill, and the new phone's coltan has been mined in Congo must be held partially responsible for genocide.

Sure, you can blame a lack of government dis/incentives making mobile phone manufacturers seek out cheaper, more easily mined/produced component materials, but thanks to global demand acting in line with current technology at current prices (and whatever determines those), the majority of people with a mobile phone will pretty much be a part of this problem.

Given that, how was FDR "and the rest of the American government" any more "an accessory to the Holocaust" than any US citizen who didn't campaign or do anything to get those people out of Germany and into the US?

But that's just my opinion [:)]



EDIT: Actually, if the "executive order" thing is true, then obviously FDR had much more power to make a decision about immigration and seeking asylum than some guy living in suburban New York (Does New York have suburbs? I don't know. Whatever), so he does bear more responsibility that the average US citizen.

However, and this is just an unfortunate fact of the matter, Nazi Germany lost the war, not the US, the UK, France or the USSR. Annoyingly, that does mean that the Nuremberg Trials, and any similar events which may have happened, were based on the idea that the Nazis were monsters and that the allied governments were the victors, playing no part in the horrors of the death camps of Central Europe. FDR, through that fact alone, would not have faced trial at Nuremberg. Yeah, maybe he should have, but that's not how the world works. Sucks, but you can't change the past.

---------------------------------------------------

On a similar note, I think, to an extent, Winston Churchill could be considered somewhat overrated. Sure, he was PM during our glorious victory over the Third Reich, but other than that, not so great.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Shemtov » Tue 08 Apr 2014, 21:24

sangi39 wrote:. FDR, through that fact alone, would not have faced trial at Nuremberg. Yeah, maybe he should have, but that's not how the world works. Sucks, but you can't change the past.
Zombie FDR?
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by sangi39 » Wed 09 Apr 2014, 09:46

Shemtov wrote:
sangi39 wrote:. FDR, through that fact alone, would not have faced trial at Nuremberg. Yeah, maybe he should have, but that's not how the world works. Sucks, but you can't change the past.
Zombie FDR?
That's why I said "that fact alone", but maybe I used that wrong... Oh well [:P]
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Lambuzhao » Fri 11 Apr 2014, 00:24

EDIT: Actually, if the "executive order" thing is true, then obviously FDR had much more power to make a decision about immigration and seeking asylum than some guy living in suburban New York (Does New York have suburbs? I don't know. Whatever), so he does bear more responsibility that the average US citizen.
Closest I could think of would be Long Island to the East, and Westchester.
Westchester is pretty darned affluent. Also perhaps white Plains, Greenwich, Stamford.

...yeah, and the current U.S> administration (and/or its successor) will have yet to answer in the future Trials of Donetsk for what it may very well have allowed to happen in Ukraine.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Lambuzhao » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 07:06

I'm on the fence with with this one:

Che Guevara-

Overrated, Underrated, or pretty much accurately rated, historically?
(I know a lot of this may depend on who you read and where you stand, but...)
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Lao Kou » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 08:23

Lambuzhao wrote:I'm on the fence with with this one: Che Guevara
Overrated, Underrated, or pretty much accurately rated, historically?
Hey, the true hallmark of greatness: Che can still be seen on T-shirts and car decals. I don't recall ever seeing a disaffected twenty-something sporting a torn denim jacket with FDR's likeness on it. Just goes to show, when the Revolution comes, scruffy and bereted trumps patrician and monocled every time.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Lambuzhao » Fri 18 Apr 2014, 18:39

Interesting point.

Upon meeting him, JP Sartre called Guevara "the most complete man".

Speaking of t-shirt... although that kind of mindless commercialism was the kind of thing Che precisely fought against, nonetheless, if the shite hit the fan, and we were invaded by some alien Hegemony, I think I'd be wearing his likeness as a testament to true grit, resourcefulness, brilliant tactics under almost invincible odds that humans can muster (plus, the current likeness of Leonidas from 300 looks too much like Terry Gilliam is about to make a cheap cut-out nutcracker-mouthed animation from it. Apologies to Gerard Butler and the former king of SPAAAAH-TAAAAH.

Though sometimes I found him to be an obstinate prick, the more I read about him, IMHO Che
embodied a lot of Λεωνίδας +Σωκράτης + μύωψ/οἶστρος (gadfly)+ἀρετή (virtue/excellence)+[Οἰδίπους*Λαοκόων (Oedipus x Laocoon, for the tragic flaws in Congo & Bolivia]. A lot of contemporaries marked him the same sort of "whiny little shit" that got Socrates killed. Why I'm thinking of him in :grc: terms, I dunno. Despite his economic failures, I think they were almost balanced by his military bravado AND victories regarding education in Cuba.

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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by kanejam » Wed 23 Apr 2014, 04:55

Zontas wrote:Thomas Alva Edison. Big time. Everyone knows why that thief deserves zero credit for most of his work. The only good thing he did was save a boy from an incoming train.
As long as this thread is still alive, I will agree with this. Edison stole other people's ideas and hindered the progress of any competition, even when his ideas were terrible (like using DC over AC). Tesla deserves all the credit that he ever got.

Also overrated: Columbus and Henry Ford. Ford didn't invent either the car or the assembly line, had terrible business strategy, refused to employ experts, was strongly anti-Semitic to the point of getting one of the highest civilian awards of Nazi Germany and spent 20 years trying to create a rubber farm and community in the Brazil rainforest called Fordlandia which was a horrendous failure.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Yačay256 » Tue 29 Apr 2014, 23:09

What about Queen Victoria? She is WAY overrated in my opinion: Why do so many people talk about the myth of the "Splendid Isolation" of Britain, when under her reign: Britain obtained the dubious title of being the only country in recorded history to single-handedly carry out a conclusive genocide against an entire group of peoples, the Indigenous Tasmanians in what is known as the Black War; the Opium Wars forced a country that was completely at peace with Victorian Britain, Qing China, into a suspiciously familiar "free trade"-like system by way of the British being drug pushers; the Great Indian Rebellion was ruthlessly put down and suppressed what remained of the once-mighty Indian Economy (see Rajat Kanta Ray's works on the colonial economy for more information).

Finally, I would like to point out that, according to "The Eastern Origins of Western Civilization", John Hobson points out that, relative to GDP, British military spending during the first half of the 19th century was only exceeded by any other major state, Nazi Germany, a few years after the rise of fascism in that country.

These are just a few examples of how Queen Victoria and her racist and corrupt imperialist policies show she was a wicked person: In fact, I would put here on a par with Francisco Pizarro, Napoleon Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin in terms of the bad she did for the world.
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Re: Overrated Historical people

Post by Xonen » Wed 30 Apr 2014, 01:32

Yačay256 wrote:What about Queen Victoria? She is WAY overrated in my opinion: Why do so many people talk about the myth of the "Splendid Isolation" of Britain, when under her reign: Britain obtained the dubious title of being the only country in recorded history to single-handedly carry out a conclusive genocide against an entire group of peoples, the Indigenous Tasmanians in what is known as the Black War
According to Wikipedia, the Black War was effectively over by 1832 or 1833 - when Victoria was about fourteen years old and several years before she was crowned.

Also, while killing natives just for having a problem with you taking over their land isn't really excusable under any circumstances, it should perhaps be pointed out that several other nations have carried out genocides that ended up killing a lot more people - and indeed, unlike this one, were intended to be conclusive. It's just a lot harder to succeed in driving peoples of several million individuals to extinction than it is with ones that only number a few thousand to begin with. Not that the policies of the British empire in Tasmania can't be called atrocious - just that they were hardly unique in history.
These are just a few examples of how Queen Victoria and her racist and corrupt imperialist policies show she was a wicked person: In fact, I would put here on a par with Francisco Pizarro, Napoleon Bonaparte and Joseph Stalin in terms of the bad she did for the world.
Those dudes were directly calling the shots, though, while she by and large wasn't (even after she had in fact been crowned). I think that's a pretty important difference. Not that I doubt she was an imperialist and a racist, though; that was pretty much the norm at the time, after all. As they say about Victorian times: think back and lie of England.
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