Race and American Culture.

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Race and American Culture.

Post by Ossicone » Mon 06 Aug 2012, 22:31

Torco wrote:speaking about races, I really hate the monorace polity trope... just because ye yanks are segregationist racists, and racially segregated ones at that, doesn't mean the entire world is like that... there's plenty of non-monoracial cultures in the history of the world, and a HUGE amount of reasons why, given greater diversity of intelligent things, monoracial polities wouldn't be any more common than on earth, perhaps less so.
Just no.

Modicone: Split from the How NOT to Conworld thread.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Mon 06 Aug 2012, 22:37

of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by thaen » Mon 06 Aug 2012, 23:08

Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
Wow. None of that is a rule. Or even hard set. Yeah, people of same skin color can hang together. Also, you have to factor in cultural differences.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 06 Aug 2012, 23:14

Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
When was the last time you spent 104 days or longer in the U.S. and visited more than two states? Especially, when was the last time you visited four different sections -- the North, the South, the East, and the West?

If I informed you about all kinds of things about South American and Meso-American countries in general, based on my few and long-ago trips to Mexico, would you think I was talking through my hat?
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Keenir » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 01:42

thaen wrote:
Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
can I ask what sort of ugly stereotypes people have about your nationality, Torco?
Wow. None of that is a rule. Or even hard set. Yeah, people of same skin color can hang together.
we tried outlawing those sort of gatherings (also against Communists), but it turns out, its unconstitutional.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by thaen » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 02:39

Wow. None of that is a rule. Or even hard set. Yeah, people of same skin color can hang together.

we tried outlawing those sort of gatherings (also against Communists), but it turns out, its unconstitutional.
[xD]
just because ye yanks are segregationist racists, and racially segregated ones at that,
Who's racist now?
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Trailsend » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 05:15

thaen wrote:
Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
Wow. None of that is a rule. Or even hard set. Yeah, people of same skin color can hang together. Also, you have to factor in cultural differences.
He didn't say it was a rule. Whether people can hang out together is not the same as whether people do hang out together. Also, what does "factor in cultural differences" mean?
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Lambuzhao » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 06:14

eldin raigmore wrote:
Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
When was the last time you spent 104 days or longer in the U.S. and visited more than two states? Especially, when was the last time you visited four different sections -- the North, the South, the East, and the West?

If I informed you about all kinds of things about South American and Meso-American countries in general, based on my few and long-ago trips to Mexico, would you think I was talking through my hat?
[+1]
And with regard to this particularly sensitive topic, watching a gazillion oatmeal documentaries about it on Discovery Channel is nothing like living through it, near it or in it.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by eldin raigmore » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 12:21

I think that by now we may have over-reacted to Torco, at least collectively if not also distributively (at least jointly if not also severally).
He's probably feeling pretty ganged-up-on.
@Torco; I hope you're not shy to say "hello!" again. We'd love hearing from you.
Anyway, the point you made about "how NOT to Conworld" rang a bell for many of us; so much intra-species conflict and avoidance or resolution of same, seems to be done with a severe lack of imagination and creativity (for instance ignoring the possibility entirely).
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Trailsend » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 16:17

It is also worth noting that Torco is a professional sociologist. Obviously that doesn't mean that he's immune to being completely off base on anything sociological, but it does mean that I try to think very carefully through the things that he says.

EDIT: He's also pretty well-travelled, although he hasn't specified where he's been in the US.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 20:20

Vini, Trolli, nunc Explicare
Trailsend wrote:It is also worth noting that Torco is a professional sociologist. Obviously that doesn't mean that he's immune to being completely off base on anything sociological, but it does mean that I try to think very carefully through the things that he says.

EDIT: He's also pretty well-travelled, although he hasn't specified where he's been in the US.
For example, this sort of post -this person might know what he's talking about, and thanks for the vote of confidence btw man- is impossible in the zeeb; well, not impossible, but strange: the same people, i.e. Trailsend, will behave differently here from there because, as with any two communities, virtual or physical, both places have different cultures, and the zeeb is culturally more of a dog-eat-dog kind of place.

Of course when I said ye yanks are segregationists, I didn't mean every yank is a racist segregationist, but rather, that american culture [that is, ye as a culture, as opposed to you as an individual, a distinction I would very much like to see in English] has strong currents of racial segregationism; not only are blacks overwhelmingly more likely [please point out any gaffes on my part, is saying 'blacks' okay?] to marry blacks, for example, and same with asians and whites and latinos, historically much of the racism that occurred in the states post-slavery was segregation-based. Common as it might look to an american, the idea that colours are kinds of people and that those kinds of people should be kept separate [I'm not saying every yank holds it, if that's hard, google ideology and/or culture] is distinctly american; other cultures tend to discriminate on the bases of culture, like the greeks and romans [who cares if you're black, you speak like a fucking barbarian, that's why I hate you, barbarian, now fuck off], of SES [like here in Chile, where everyone derides the mores of the lower classes], or of something else entirely. Damn, I remember as a kid, after seeing wave after wave of yank movies where everyone is black, to have wondered... hey, the states must be full of black people... and lo and behold, its not! whether or not this black-only pattern of sociality is true, that is, if blacks do indeed only hang out with blacks, the fact that there's movies where EVERYONE is black and EVERYONE is black but that recognize that there's a diversity of color in the states should tell you something, innit? The conception of race as kinds of people, even, is distinctly anglosaxon, or perhaps protestant; the Spanish didn't much have it, they were more into discriminating based on culture and religion.

My point is that the cultural construction, or social imaginary if you wanna get technical, surrounding discrimination, race and alterity in the state has an important segregation component that is absent from other ways to discriminate, like the Muslim way to discriminate which is more based on religion [though non-arab muslims are too discriminated, they're never told, in the history of Islam to my knowledge, to get lost and keep to their own; this keep to your own mentality is common in the states, both explicitly and implicitly]
Trailsend wrote:
thaen wrote:
Torco wrote:of course not al ye yanks are segregationist racists... but culturally, the states is, on the whole, pretty racist, and people of the same colour tend to hang out with people of the same colour, that is, there's quite a bit of segregation.... not as much as during the fifties, granted. but okay, I realize this is probably not an issue to joke about. coors not all ye yanks are racists.
Wow. None of that is a rule. Or even hard set. Yeah, people of same skin color can hang together. Also, you have to factor in cultural differences.
He didn't say it was a rule. Whether people can hang out together is not the same as whether people do hang out together. Also, what does "factor in cultural differences" mean?
that's its variable so little can be said about it... its a common response to cultural commentary

eldin raigmore wrote:I think that by now we may have over-reacted to Torco, at least collectively if not also distributively (at least jointly if not also severally).
He's probably feeling pretty ganged-up-on.
@Torco; I hope you're not shy to say "hello!" again. We'd love hearing from you.
Anyway, the point you made about "how NOT to Conworld" rang a bell for many of us; so much intra-species conflict and avoidance or resolution of same, seems to be done with a severe lack of imagination and creativity (for instance ignoring the possibility entirely).
Oooww, guise. don't worry, bro, it's all good, I did say something which, given the state's history, I might have known would rile up a few feathers [zat how you write it?]. Here might not be as boring as I thought, I'm not going away too soon. And that's part of the beauty of conworlding, it forces you to face what you feel is obvious, in this case, the WASP notion of race and discrimination; we humans are quite creative, we're perfectly able to degrade others in many creative ways.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by thaen » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 20:35

Well, I'm sorry if I was a little harsh/hasty in my accusations, torco. Yes, there are segregational characteristics in America, as you said, like marrying people who have the same color skin, or hanging out with people who have the same color skin. By "cultural differences," I mean that whites have (usually, as far as I can tell) different standards/different ways of doing things than, say, blacks, or asians, or hispanics. In my experience, asians usually are more serious about academic excellence, whereas blacks may be more serious about physical (especially in sports) excellence. This is by no means hard-and-fast, because I'm white and I'm concerned with both academic and physical (though mostly academic) excellence. There is speech-patterns amongst whites (in general) that is different than, say, amongst blacks (in general). And asians, and hispanics.

Please don't take what I've said and call me stereotypical/racist, but take it as more of an observation. You have those who cross cultural boundaries, and that is wonderful.

Actually, it isn't what color people are, but in what culture they were raised. Those I have mentioned above are just what I have observed to be common characteristics.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 20:49

thaen wrote:Well, I'm sorry if I was a little harsh/hasty in my accusations, torco. Yes, there are segregational characteristics in America, as you said, like marrying people who have the same color skin, or hanging out with people who have the same color skin. By "cultural differences," I mean that whites have (usually, as far as I can tell) different standards/different ways of doing things than, say, blacks, or asians, or hispanics. In my experience, asians usually are more serious about academic excellence, whereas blacks may be more serious about physical (especially in sports) excellence. This is by no means hard-and-fast, because I'm white and I'm concerned with both academic and physical (though mostly academic) excellence. There is speech-patterns amongst whites (in general) that is different than, say, amongst blacks (in general). And asians, and hispanics.

Please don't take what I've said and call me stereotypical/racist, but take it as more of an observation. You have those who cross cultural boundaries, and that is wonderful.

Actually, it isn't what color people are, but in what culture they were raised. Those I have mentioned above are just what I have observed to be common characteristics.
you're not racist for pointing that out... I mean, you may be, those sounds pretty much like racial stereotypes, but they might also be completely true; that level of know about yank society I have not. but what I do know is that the fact that they're true is a proof of how color is hugely determinant of exclusive identity; you are this and that and that and this because of your color, in american culture... my point is that that is by no means universal: here in Chile, for example, people are so mixed up that race is a continuum, not at all a set, that is, there's very few clear blacks and whites and native americans at all, there's just varying degrees of brown, that is, mestizo, from full europpean to full indio; and that is a different way to see race, you're not brown here, you're browner than Carlos and less brown that Gabriel, that means you can look down on Gabriel but generally defer to Carlos... and the saddest thing is that people don't even realize this happens, as opposed to over there, where everyone is keenly aware of race.

so yeah, don't apologize to me for disagreeing, if I'm being perceived as a cunt I expect to be called a cunt... this is the internet :D
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Andlat » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 21:07

I'm a little confused...
Is it really racist if I go to the movies with a group of friends and none of them happen to be black? I have friends who are black, but maybe they couldn't go to the movies then. Should I force them to go just to avoid people thinking I'm a racist?

Am I automatically a racist if I marry someone who is not of a different ethnicity than me? For the record, I recall reading somewhere that multi-ethnic relationships are more common for GLBT folks, so maybe I will end up marrying someone of a different ethnicity. And are these monoethnic marriages only racist if the married couple is American? As far as I know, at least some of my ancestors married the same ethnicity.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 21:13

Of course its not, brother. I never called any american racist, I called american culture racist, or perhaps a better term would have race-prominent. a group of good people can be bad, a group of non-racist people can show racist behavior, that is the essence of the concept of social structure.

really, don't take my cultural commentary as a personal insult. if it makes it any clearer, the fact that, in the framework of american culture you have to ask if something is racist time and time again shows how race-prominent it is, for example. It's not racist if *you* don't marry a black chick, say, but if *no white dude* marries a black chick ever, it sorta shows how american culture is a bit segregationist, you see? the individual and social levels are different. Its like, I don't like to suck penis, so I don't, but if suddenly tomorrow no one sucked penis, it would tell us something about society, but if I don't suck penis, it just tells us something about me, namely that I don't much like penis.

=)
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by thaen » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 21:18

Yes, though racial stereotypes they may be, they are not unfounded. I, for one, enjoy making stereotypical jokes (in a non-serious manner) even about whites ( I say "even about" because I am white). But anyway, yeah, skin color is quite a subject of conflict and such, especially since people who try very desperately to make sure minority races are treated fairly, the majority race often gets the short end of the stick.

Anyway, I think that we should probably get back to the OP subject, and leave the subject of skin color/race and whatever for a more appropriate time.
Torco wrote:so yeah, don't apologize to me for disagreeing, if I'm being perceived as a cunt I expect to be called a cunt... this is the internet :D
The comment of "racist yanks" could have given that perception. [:)] Exacerbated by the fact that it appeared to be one of the comments that some people make out of ignorance.
Andlat wrote:I'm a little confused...
Is it really racist if I go to the movies with a group of friends and none of them happen to be black? I have friends who are black, but maybe they couldn't go to the movies then. Should I force them to go just to avoid people thinking I'm a racist?

Am I automatically a racist if I marry someone who is not of a different ethnicity than me? For the record, I recall reading somewhere that multi-ethnic relationships are more common for GLBT folks, so maybe I will end up marrying someone of a different ethnicity. And are these monoethnic marriages only racist if the married couple is American? As far as I know, at least some of my ancestors married the same ethnicity.
I had these questions as well, but now I don't, because I realize that torco was probably misunderstood, and wasn't trying to start a flamewar.
So please, let's stop trying to hammer him (although his comments appeared incitive and ignorant) and move on.

@Andlat and torco: Yall both ninja'd me, you punks! :mrred: [;)]
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Andlat » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 21:30

Torco wrote:Of course its not, brother. I never called any american racist, I called american culture racist, or perhaps a better term would have race-prominent. a group of good people can be bad, a group of non-racist people can show racist behavior, that is the essence of the concept of social structure.

really, don't take my cultural commentary as a personal insult. if it makes it any clearer, the fact that, in the framework of american culture you have to ask if something is racist time and time again shows how race-prominent it is, for example. It's not racist if *you* don't marry a black chick, say, but if *no white dude* marries a black chick ever, it sorta shows how american culture is a bit segregationist, you see? the individual and social levels are different. Its like, I don't like to suck penis, so I don't, but if suddenly tomorrow no one sucked penis, it would tell us something about society, but if I don't suck penis, it just tells us something about me, namely that I don't much like penis.

=)
In case you missed it, I do like "sucking penis", so... no black chick for me. Maybe her brother though. ;)
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 21:32

the majority race often gets the short end of the stick.
sounds a bit like privilege conservation bias maybe?
The comment of "racist yanks" could have given that perception. Exacerbated by the fact that it appeared to be one of the comments that some people make out of ignorance.
correction, ye racist yanks. I was going for a leprechaun feel
:P
and wasn't trying to start a flamewar.
what flamewar? oooww, just when things were beggining to get interesting.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ossicone » Tue 07 Aug 2012, 23:56

I've split this in the hope people can discuss the topic without descending into flames.

Just something to chew on:
From here. It points out some of the trends that go along with gender, race and education.
Of the major demographic trends that have transformed American society in recent decades, the public is more accepting of the rise in interracial marriage than of other cultural shifts, like same-sex marriage or the increase in single motherhood, according to a new report by the Pew Research Center.

The more positive attitude toward intermarriage represents a sharp break from the recent past and parallels behavioral change: about 15 percent of new marriages across the country in 2010 were between spouses of different races or ethnicities, more than double the share in 1980. The researchers presented the acceptance of interracial marriage as “the fading of a taboo.”

Only about a third of Americans viewed intermarriage as acceptable in 1986.

Now, more than a third of the population says that an immediate family member or close relative is married to someone of a different race, researchers found.

“If you think about the last half-century, interracial marriage has evolved from being illegal in many states, to merely a taboo, to merely unusual, and with each passing year, it becomes less unusual,” said Paul Taylor, executive vice president of the Pew Research Center.

Viewed in aggregate, interracially married newlyweds seem similar to all newlyweds. But when the pairings are broken down by sex and race, distinct patterns emerge.

White-Asian couples have the highest earning power, surpassing white-white couples and Asian-Asian couples in median income. And among Hispanics and blacks, those who marry outside their race are more likely to have college degrees. There are gender disparities as well: black men marry outside the race at a far higher rate than black women. But the opposite is true of Asians: women marry outside the race at a higher rate than men.

Regionally, intermarried couples are more likely to live in the West, a result of the concentration of immigrant minority groups there.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 00:16

Torco -

No queria ofenderte con mis comentarios. Vivi en el Peru varios años. Me casé con una peruana (despues de varios años, nos divorciamos). Pues, entiendo algo de lo que refieres respeto a la realidad cultural en Suramérica. Algo, pero no todo, por supuesto. Es mi lente, mi filtro, pero no tan completo como el túyo.

But, I am sure this has been beaten to death in other ways, but in the future, be more specific. If you mean to say “American Culture”, then say “American Culture”. Though pretty moribund here, in certain circles, “yanks” can be pretty flameworthy in others. Furthermore, I learned an important lesson teaching kids of other races here in the US. Phrases like “You People” are wrankling, incendiary remarks to them. “Ye yanks” even if in a humorous spirit, kind of comes out the same. If I speak in general terms, I try to avoid "you", and necro the genrally moribund pronoun “one”, which sounds somewhat stupid, but, to me, at least, erases some of the finger-waving or down-talking and equalizes communication a bit more.

I apologize if my comments seemed to jump on the phlogistical band-wagon.

Paz

Muchas gracias, Ossicone.

Your facts seem to describe the very block I live on. I was a Census taker back in 2000 in this same area of the city where I live now. Back then, my block was 99% Caucasian, with one African American family. Now, there are Guatemalan families, Viet+Caucasian couples, Khmer families, and at least 3 African-American+Caucasian couples, and at the end of the block, a Philipino+African American couple, in addition to some of the same old Caucasian families. While back in 2000, a little of the mindset which Torco described I will concede to have existed, namely, folks gathering with their own folks, the incredible rate of racial barriers subliming away (like CO2) at least in my city , is astonishing.

But is the culture still racist? You bet. Do folks still congregate in their own racial/ethnic barrios, neighborhoods? Yup, unfortunately. And as a secondary-school teacher, I have seen it crop up in the subtlest, craziest ways imaginable.
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