Race and American Culture.

Discussions regarding actual culture and history of Earth.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Keenir » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 04:35

thaen wrote:
we tried outlawing those sort of gatherings (also against Communists), but it turns out, its unconstitutional.
[xD]
yeah, turns out you're not allowed to do more than yell "get off my lawn!" when (any) kids start assembling on your property.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ollock » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 05:17

I think race as a proxy for socio-economic status is a big part of American culture. Maybe my own experience can enlighten a bit: I grew up in a very white town in West Virginia. There were a couple of half-black kids in my school, we had Pakistani neighbors at one point, and Jewish neighbors (I know, most Jews are considered white ....), as well as a few Hispanic families. But really, the overwhelming majority of the population was WASP plus a significant population of Italian-Americans (which is in my ancestry, incidentally). In any case, through college, I was somehow semi-blind to the race of some of the blacks around me. Maybe with living in an international dorm and later immersing myself in Chinese courses (and Chinese-related activities outside the classroom), black Americans didn't really seem that different. At one point I was in an art show for a Chinese artist, surrounded by Chinese, and felt a sort of odd relief when a group of black girls came in -- at least they were American and spoke the same language as me. But this weird blindness got to a point where it was about my junior year before I really consciously thought of my Spanish adviser as being black. I'm sure I knew that beforehand -- I'm not actually blind or stupid, but it seems the context where I new her made that fact somewhat less salient to me.

But now, out of school and back in my hometown, I notice what race people are pretty much all the time. Maybe once I start gradschool and am back in a more ethnically diverse (but socio-econimically homogenous) environment, I will start ignoring it more. I don't know.

A small side note: Someone talked about marrying the same race and whether it should say anything about someone's racial perceptions -- I don't think on an individual level it's easy to make that argument. On the flipside, though, I've often wondered whether my preference for non-white women (especially East Asians, but black girls and meztizas can be quite attractive as well), constitutes a sort of subtle racism. I dunno, maybe it does.
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Re: How NOT to Conworld.

Post by Torco » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 14:59

Andlat wrote:In case you missed it, I do like "sucking penis", so... no black chick for me. Maybe her brother though. ;)
should have said mutatis mutandis, considering how common the same sex persuasion is in the conlanging community.

@Lambuzhao: ts'all good. It was kind of a poetic statement, really; I wanted to point out, through the paradoxical statement of 'ye yanks are racists' that I was referring to the sort of racism there's in the states, and not the existence thereof. I guess I failed to communicate. but hey, it gave rise to an interesting thread, so I regret nothing [B)]
[there might have been a bit of Latin American Left brand anti-american sentiment too, but really, is yank flameworthy?? to me its equivalent to brit or ché, not to calling peruvians 'cholos', for instance. ]

As for ossicone's data, yes, the states is becoming less and less racially segregated, in a large part due to a shift in attitudes... but, the process is slow enough, and quite localized, as George's experience points out.
On the flipside, though, I've often wondered whether my preference for non-white women (especially East Asians, but black girls and mestizas can be quite attractive as well), constitutes a sort of subtle racism. I dunno, maybe it does.
I mean it is a race-prominent trait, but I don't think acknowledging the fact that there are different biotypes that correlate to ancestry is racist... I, conversely, seem to strongly prefer rather fair-skinned women; mostly italians, though slavic chicks are seriously cute. I'm sure that means I've internalized some of the cultural racism as in white is better than brown, and it *is* part of racism in the sense that it does contribute to giving more erotic/aesthetic/sexual capital to whites, but that something is a part of racism doesn't necessarily mean that its racist at the individual level because, yeah, structure is emergent; in other words, it would perhaps be more racist to seek out relationships with people you're not attracted to just in order to be an 'equal opportunity banger/dater/something'.
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Race and American Culture.

Post by Ossicone » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 16:55

Torco wrote:As for ossicone's data, yes, the states is becoming less and less racially segregated, in a large part due to a shift in attitudes... but, the process is slow enough, and quite localized, as George's experience points out.
I'd like to see the data split by age, region and race. I'd expect older people and the southeast to be less accepting. But I prefer having numbers rather than my own inklings. I'd also like if there was some sort of measure of 'It's fine for people to intermarry but I'd be disappointed if my kid did.'

There are still big race issues in the US. And I think the economic problems are going to stall or delay any improvement for a few years. Blacks have been hit worse by the recession than whites. Link.
Ollock wrote:black Americans didn't really seem that different. At one point I was in an art show for a Chinese artist, surrounded by Chinese, and felt a sort of odd relief when a group of black girls came in -- at least they were American and spoke the same language as me.
I have found that black American culture is pretty different from mainstream white American culture. However, it will generally only come out when they're in a group together. When in a group with whites or other races they will usually default to the mainstream. I asked my friend about this and her response was something like, "White people just don't know how to respond to it."

That being said I grew up in a majority black area until I was about 10. At which point I went to a new school and wondered where all the black kids went.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 17:33

I'd like to see the data split by age, region and race. I'd expect older people and the southeast to be less accepting. But I prefer having numbers rather than my own inklings. I'd also like if there was some sort of measure of 'It's fine for people to intermarry but I'd be disappointed if my kid did.'
you'd make a pretty decent social scientist, then. It'll likely vary a lot by the race in question, I think americans have very distinct attitudes towards each race, as opposed to a generalized 'otherness'. People there, I figure, think of 'black' and 'asian' more than in terms of 'non-whites'.

EDIT:
reading some oracle manuals, I came across this jewel; according to it, the Human Resources system uses information about, among other things.
some documentation guy wrote:Your workforce essential personal information, such as:

Name and address

Marital status

Birth date

Nationality

Ethnic origin
not gender, mind you. not profession, not health status; name, marital status, birth date, nationality and race. why do you care about race and marital status? fuck if I know, but it goes to show you how prominent they are in the culture, especially because, presumably, no one bats an eyebrow.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ossicone » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 20:49

Torco wrote:It'll likely vary a lot by the race in question, I think americans have very distinct attitudes towards each race, as opposed to a generalized 'otherness'. People there, I figure, think of 'black' and 'asian' more than in terms of 'non-whites'.
That is true. But I only know what I've been in contact with. Where I lived there weren't many asians and I don't think I could clearly analyze hispanics.

Addressing other races and age, I found this. Because data is fun!
Q. Now that blacks are no longer the largest minority in this country, is there an affinity of blacks for other minorities, such as Hispanics or Asians, or do blacks look at other minorities as competitors for limited resources such as jobs or services?

A. We have not asked people specifically about feelings of competitiveness toward other racial or ethnic minorities in any of our social audits of black-white relations in the United States. Nevertheless, in our 2001 survey we did ask respondents to rate their feelings of "closeness" to several groups -- including Asians and Hispanics -- on a 10-point scale (where 10 = "extremely close" and 1 = "not at all close").

As might be expected, blacks expressed the greatest closeness toward their own racial group (average closeness score = 8.6), but the closeness ratings among whites, Asian Americans, and Hispanics showed some differences. Blacks felt equally close to whites and Hispanics (average closeness score of 6.2), but they expressed less closeness toward Asians (average closeness score of 4.9). By way of comparison, white respondents in our 2001 survey expressed greatest closeness to their own racial group (average score = 8.7), somewhat less closeness toward blacks (average score = 6.7) and least closeness to Hispanics (average score = 6.1) and Asian Americans (average score = 5.8).

Q. What is the consensus on interracial dating and marriage among blacks and whites?

A. Although the past several decades have witnessed dramatic changes in opinion on this issue -- particularly among white Americans -- public opinion is still too divided to permit description as a consensus. In our 1997 social audit of black-white relations in the United States, we asked both black respondents and white respondents, "Do you approve or disapprove of marriage between blacks and whites?" In that survey, 64% of all respondents said they approved of interracial marriage (61% of white respondents and 77% of black respondents). Even though this level of approval falls short of a consensus, and shows significant divergence of opinion between black Americans and white Americans, it is a much higher level of approval (and a narrower gap between black opinion and white opinion) than we measured 20 years ago. In 1983, overall approval of interracial marriage was 20 percentage points lower (at 43%), and the gap between levels of approval was twice as large (38% of whites approved, compared to 71% of blacks).

Attitudes toward marriage between blacks and whites are dramatically different across age groups. Teens surveyed in Gallup's periodic youth polls are remarkably more approving of interracial marriage than adults are. When adult approval stood at 64% in 1997, approval among 13- to 17-year-olds was at 83%. In this same teen survey, 17% of white teens said they had dated a black person and 44% of black teens said they had dated a white person. When those who had not had an interracial dating experience were asked whether they would ever consider interracial dating, 55% of white teens said they would consider dating a black person, and 61% of black teens said they would consider dating a white person.

Even among adults, age is a major factor in attitudes toward interracial marriage. Gallup's most recent asking of this question was in 2002, in a poll of 1,360 U.S. adults. In that survey, 65% of Americans approved of marriage between blacks and whites, but differences in opinion by age group were striking. Among 18- to 29-year-olds, approval stood at 86%, but it dropped to 75% among 30- to 49-year-olds, 53% among 50- to 64-year-olds, and all the way to 30% among those aged 65 and older. Thus, although it is not a certainty, there is a good chance that overall approval of interracial marriage among American adults will continue to rise in the coming years, as older, more disapproving Americans are replaced by younger, more approving ones.
Where is this Oracle from? Could there be a legal reason for omitting gender? "Ethnic Origin" what does that even mean? I don't even think I have an ethnic group to identify with.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Wed 08 Aug 2012, 21:35

exactly, which is why I strongly suspect the documentation means 'race', as in 'ethnic origin' might take the values of 'white, black, latino, asian, polynesian' and zho on.

the main man at oracle is american, and its headquarters are in California somewhere.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by eldin raigmore » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 01:06

What is meant by calling a culture "racist"?
Is Mexican culture murderous just because there are Mexican murderers?
Is Colombian culture drug-oriented just because there are Colombian narcotraficantes?
Is Indian culture vegetarian just because there are vegetarians in India?
How can an entire culture "be racist"?
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Keenir » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 09:48

eldin raigmore wrote:What is meant by calling a culture "racist"?

How can an entire culture "be racist"?
off the top of my head...
China's historical sense of superiority over the entire planet's population.

the "Yellow Peril" in the US.

the Nazis.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 15:35

eldin raigmore wrote:What is meant by calling a culture "racist"?
Is Mexican culture murderous just because there are Mexican murderers?
Is Colombian culture drug-oriented just because there are Colombian narcotraficantes?
Is Indian culture vegetarian just because there are vegetarians in India?
How can an entire culture "be racist"?
exactly not like that... are plants walled? cause all their cells are walled: there are emergent levels. I already explained what is meant by calling american culture segregationally racist. I prompt ye to read ye post :P
off the top of my head...
China's historical sense of superiority over the entire planet's population.
that had nothing to do with race.
I'm not an L1 English speaker, but did racist's meaning shift to 'discriminatory' o 'supremacist' or 'making generalized negative statements about any group of people' ? similarly, I seem to remember someone said saying that 'you yanks are racist' was racist... but yanks is not a race. isn't that curious?
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ollock » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 17:54

Torco wrote:
off the top of my head...
China's historical sense of superiority over the entire planet's population.
that had nothing to do with race.
I'm not an L1 English speaker, but did racist's meaning shift to 'discriminatory' o 'supremacist' or 'making generalized negative statements about any group of people' ? similarly, I seem to remember someone said saying that 'you yanks are racist' was racist... but yanks is not a race. isn't that curious?
"Racist", in English at least, can extend to discriminating against ethnic or national identities as well. The precise definition is just as debatable as where one draws the lines between the "races". I think I've even seen it applied to religious bigotry (against Muslims, who I think are often seen as an ethnic identity in the US, despite the fact that they can include everyone from Francophone North Africans to Mandarin-speaking Chinese).

And of course, I'm sure that you are personally sensitive to the complexity of the "Hispanic/Latino" identity. The federal government formally separates it from "race" -- in an odd way that weirdly singles it out (as a census taker in 2010, I had to ask "Are you Hispanic?" before I asked the race question), but I think attitudes among the general public lean toward Hispanics being a race -- usually with the stereotypical Hispanic being pictured as looking like a Mexican mestizo. I guess people perhaps do see more mestizos than black Hispanics or white Hispanics.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ossicone » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 17:58

But how do you tell a white hispanic from a white white?! [O.O]
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 18:04

"Racist", in English at least, can extend to discriminating against ethnic or national identities as well. The precise definition is just as debatable as where one draws the lines between the "races". I think I've even seen it applied to religious bigotry (against Muslims, who I think are often seen as an ethnic identity in the US, despite the fact that they can include everyone from Francophone North Africans to Mandarin-speaking Chinese).
so you can be racist against groups that aren't races? are you sure its not used that way because people percieve 'muslims' or other non-races as, well, races?
damn you semantic shift! and there I was, acting as if racism was about race xD
And of course, I'm sure that you are personally sensitive to the complexity of the "Hispanic/Latino" identity
I most certainly am not, as its a category entirely foreign to me personal experience [since, well, in LatAm there's no point in having a category to describe people from or descended from people from LatAm]: I know the us fed government treats it as a different thing, and I can imagine why [hispanic belongs more with francophone than with black, as its not a colour, but a procedence and/or subculture that refers to a huge swath of planet], but yeah, latino is, to me, a concept them yanks [as in, the radical otherness contained within american culture a quarter of a planet away] use.
But how do you tell a white hispanic from a white white?!
in the states, the white hispanic knows that football is played with the feet and a ball, the white white thinks football is played with the hands, armor, and an egg-shaped thingamajig.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ànradh » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 20:45

Torco wrote:in the states, the white hispanic knows that football is played with the feet and a ball, the white white thinks football is played with the hands, armor, and an egg-shaped thingamajig.
American rugby players wear armour? :o
Sin ar Pàrras agus nì sinne mar a thogras sinn. Choisinn sinn e agus ’s urrainn dhuinn ga loisgeadh.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by hubris_incalculable » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 20:47

Lodhas wrote:
Torco wrote:in the states, the white hispanic knows that football is played with the feet and a ball, the white white thinks football is played with the hands, armor, and an egg-shaped thingamajig.
American rugby players wear armour? :o
Yes, I should think they do:
Image

But it ain't really Rugby.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Thu 09 Aug 2012, 20:58

yeah, rugby can actually be fun to watch and play... american football is just an excuse for commercials.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Solarius » Fri 10 Aug 2012, 01:11

Torco wrote:
"Racist", in English at least, can extend to discriminating against ethnic or national identities as well. The precise definition is just as debatable as where one draws the lines between the "races". I think I've even seen it applied to religious bigotry (against Muslims, who I think are often seen as an ethnic identity in the US, despite the fact that they can include everyone from Francophone North Africans to Mandarin-speaking Chinese).
so you can be racist against groups that aren't races? are you sure its not used that way because people percieve 'muslims' or other non-races as, well, races?
damn you semantic shift! and there I was, acting as if racism was about race xD
I've even heard it used concerning homophobia ("racist against gay people").
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Ollock » Fri 10 Aug 2012, 05:26

I was writing a long response to several different people on the subjects of ethnic identity, religion, homophobia, and football, but then my power went out. I'll rewrite it later.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Keenir » Fri 10 Aug 2012, 09:53

Ossicone wrote:But how do you tell a white hispanic from a white white?! [O.O]
presumably the same way they distinguished my ancestors from white whites - religion, or seeing if we differed from the expected norm in any way (basically a yardstick of assimilation)
Torco wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
off the top of my head...
China's historical sense of superiority over the entire planet's population.
that had nothing to do with race.
considering all Chinese people superior to everyone else...wasn't racist?
I'm not an L1 English speaker, but did racist's meaning shift to 'discriminatory' o 'supremacist' or 'making generalized negative statements about any group of people' ? similarly, I seem to remember someone said saying that 'you yanks are racist' was racist... but yanks is not a race. isn't that curious?
Not really. Think about two things:
a) who historically uses the word. (Southerners)
b) who historically it is aimed at. (WASPS above the Mason-Dixon, and their Catholic neighbors)

granted, its like the "Your species is going to go extinct" in the latest Ice Age movie - they're the same species, after all.
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Re: Race and American Culture.

Post by Torco » Fri 10 Aug 2012, 15:14

Solarius wrote:I've even heard it used concerning homophobia ("racist against gay people").
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