Eurocentrism [Split Topic]

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Eurocentrism [Split Topic]

Post by cybrxkhan » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 03:36

I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.


Xonen: Split from Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Click » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 11:46

CrazyEttin wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
[+1]
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Xing » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 18:20

cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Could you explain further?
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 18:59

cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
I read an interesting comment of a man of the steet on Cyprus. "After five years Cyprus will be one of the richest countris in the world again."
I began thinking if Cyprus ever was one of the richest countries.

Then I realized how Fennocentric I am. I think it's actually good to think that your part of the world is the best one. It's the only reason to live there.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by cybrxkhan » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 19:00

Xing wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Could you explain further?

On another forum there was some discussion about possible new civilizations for Civ 5's new expansion (which actually doesn't look too shabby). Anyhow, while we were discussing the possibility of a new native american civ (as the Civ 5 devs were originally going to put in the Pueblo but had to cut them out), some bloke directly implied that 1) European civs were being looked down upon because the economic and scientific achievements of European civs are being ignored, the European civs are "weak", while Middle Eastern civs get economic and scientific bonuses for no reason, because of some political correctness on the part of the devs; and 2) native american civs are "Disney Civs" (as he called it, rather insultingly), because all native americans are merely "tribes" incapable of forming complex, urbanized societies (which, as we know, is preposterous given the existence of developed cultures such as the Pueblo, Mississippians/Mound Builders, and others). Me and this half native american (Mayan) guy on that forum almost exploded, but thankfully somehow the discussion died down pretty quickly before we got into an ugly internet flamewar.

Still, it was pretty irritating, his utter dismissal of non-Europe. Infuriating, even. Part of it was badly worded, thankfully, but it appears his intention was still nevertheless to cry out the political correctness card, which many Eurocentrists use often in their defense (and then he said I was using the racism card against him, which is also another thing Eurocentrists use in their defense). Eurocentrism is something I've grown to hate with a passion, so I can explode pretty easily if it gets too blatant. One thing that being part of these conlanging forums and all is that I've learned quite a bit about the complexity and history of different cultures around the world, particularly native american cultures (some of you guys have native american natlang fetishes, I know! :p), so it's unfortunate that people still hold on to the 20th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that has writing and big cities (or, even worse, the 19th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that follows the Judaeo-Christian religious tradition and is from the puny, western part of Eurasia).

But all in all thankfully that died down pretty quickly and the discussion turned back to civil discussions on other matters.

Still, this sort of attitude towards non-European societies is something that infuriates me. It's still going strong, and it's still subtly a part of our mass media and academia that must be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy.

Oh wow, that was a long rant. [¬.¬]
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Zontas » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 22:57

cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Oh, you mean racism. Just because North and West Europe was lucky enough to be the wealthiest (discovered things like gunpowder and steel early allowing a way to steal from other lands- not to mention a lack of natural hazards such as disease) and best-off doesn't mean it's the greatest or most worthy of history. Comparatively, it is the most succesful, but "the best" is yet to be determined.

In fairness, most Americans are of West-European descent so it helps to make the majority learn about their culture before they learn about a minority's. Unfortunately, we fail to treat said minorities with enough dignity and proportional representation and we even distort views of white people based on popular belief (Thomas Edison TOTALLY invented 1,000 things; why he's no thief at all...).
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Zontas » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 22:58

Omzinesý wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
I read an interesting comment of a man of the steet on Cyprus. "After five years Cyprus will be one of the richest countris in the world again."
I began thinking if Cyprus ever was one of the richest countries.

Then I realized how Fennocentric I am. I think it's actually good to think that your part of the world is the best one. It's the only reason to live there.
Then you are deluding yourself to live in a place you hate. Then again, you might have another reason.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by CrazyEttin » Sat 30 Mar 2013, 23:44

cybrxkhan wrote:
Xing wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Could you explain further?

On another forum there was some discussion about possible new civilizations for Civ 5's new expansion (which actually doesn't look too shabby). Anyhow, while we were discussing the possibility of a new native american civ (as the Civ 5 devs were originally going to put in the Pueblo but had to cut them out), some bloke directly implied that 1) European civs were being looked down upon because the economic and scientific achievements of European civs are being ignored, the European civs are "weak", while Middle Eastern civs get economic and scientific bonuses for no reason, because of some political correctness on the part of the devs; and 2) native american civs are "Disney Civs" (as he called it, rather insultingly), because all native americans are merely "tribes" incapable of forming complex, urbanized societies (which, as we know, is preposterous given the existence of developed cultures such as the Pueblo, Mississippians/Mound Builders, and others). Me and this half native american (Mayan) guy on that forum almost exploded, but thankfully somehow the discussion died down pretty quickly before we got into an ugly internet flamewar.

Still, it was pretty irritating, his utter dismissal of non-Europe. Infuriating, even. Part of it was badly worded, thankfully, but it appears his intention was still nevertheless to cry out the political correctness card, which many Eurocentrists use often in their defense (and then he said I was using the racism card against him, which is also another thing Eurocentrists use in their defense). Eurocentrism is something I've grown to hate with a passion, so I can explode pretty easily if it gets too blatant. One thing that being part of these conlanging forums and all is that I've learned quite a bit about the complexity and history of different cultures around the world, particularly native american cultures (some of you guys have native american natlang fetishes, I know! :p), so it's unfortunate that people still hold on to the 20th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that has writing and big cities (or, even worse, the 19th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that follows the Judaeo-Christian religious tradition and is from the puny, western part of Eurasia).

But all in all thankfully that died down pretty quickly and the discussion turned back to civil discussions on other matters.

Still, this sort of attitude towards non-European societies is something that infuriates me. It's still going strong, and it's still subtly a part of our mass media and academia that must be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy.

Oh wow, that was a long rant. [¬.¬]
Conclusion: Eurocentrists are idiots.
Zontas wrote:Oh, you mean racism. Just because North and West Europe was lucky enough to be the wealthiest (Excluding China and India until very recently) (copied things like gunpowder and steel early allowing a way to steal from other lands- not to mention having gotten used to diseases and half-accidentally using them for their advantage) and best-off doesn't mean it's the greatest or most worthy of history. Comparatively, it is the most succesful (Except for China and Egypt etc..), but "the best" is yet to be determined.

In fairness, most Americans are of West-European descent so it helps to make the majority learn about their culture before they learn about a minority's. Unfortunately, we fail to treat said minorities with enough dignity and proportional representation and we even distort views of white people based on popular belief (Thomas Edison TOTALLY invented 1,000 things; why he's no thief at all...).
Fixed.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Zontas » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 00:40

CrazyEttin wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:
Xing wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I. HATE. EUROCENTRISM. Dismissing other cultures. Thinking only Western Europe's the best. A twisted view of history and anthropology and politics and economics and physics and nutritional science.

HAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
Could you explain further?

On another forum there was some discussion about possible new civilizations for Civ 5's new expansion (which actually doesn't look too shabby). Anyhow, while we were discussing the possibility of a new native american civ (as the Civ 5 devs were originally going to put in the Pueblo but had to cut them out), some bloke directly implied that 1) European civs were being looked down upon because the economic and scientific achievements of European civs are being ignored, the European civs are "weak", while Middle Eastern civs get economic and scientific bonuses for no reason, because of some political correctness on the part of the devs; and 2) native american civs are "Disney Civs" (as he called it, rather insultingly), because all native americans are merely "tribes" incapable of forming complex, urbanized societies (which, as we know, is preposterous given the existence of developed cultures such as the Pueblo, Mississippians/Mound Builders, and others). Me and this half native american (Mayan) guy on that forum almost exploded, but thankfully somehow the discussion died down pretty quickly before we got into an ugly internet flamewar.

Still, it was pretty irritating, his utter dismissal of non-Europe. Infuriating, even. Part of it was badly worded, thankfully, but it appears his intention was still nevertheless to cry out the political correctness card, which many Eurocentrists use often in their defense (and then he said I was using the racism card against him, which is also another thing Eurocentrists use in their defense). Eurocentrism is something I've grown to hate with a passion, so I can explode pretty easily if it gets too blatant. One thing that being part of these conlanging forums and all is that I've learned quite a bit about the complexity and history of different cultures around the world, particularly native american cultures (some of you guys have native american natlang fetishes, I know! :p), so it's unfortunate that people still hold on to the 20th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that has writing and big cities (or, even worse, the 19th century notion that a proper advanced society is one that follows the Judaeo-Christian religious tradition and is from the puny, western part of Eurasia).

But all in all thankfully that died down pretty quickly and the discussion turned back to civil discussions on other matters.

Still, this sort of attitude towards non-European societies is something that infuriates me. It's still going strong, and it's still subtly a part of our mass media and academia that must be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy.

Oh wow, that was a long rant. [¬.¬]
Conclusion: Eurocentrists are idiots.
Zontas wrote:Oh, you mean racism. Just because North and West Europe was lucky enough to be the wealthiest (Excluding China and India until very recently) (copied things like gunpowder and steel early allowing a way to steal from other lands- not to mention having gotten used to diseases and half-accidentally using them for their advantage) and best-off doesn't mean it's the greatest or most worthy of history. Comparatively, it is the most succesful (Except for China and Egypt etc..), but "the best" is yet to be determined.

In fairness, most Americans are of West-European descent so it helps to make the majority learn about their culture before they learn about a minority's. Unfortunately, we fail to treat said minorities with enough dignity and proportional representation and we even distort views of white people based on popular belief (Thomas Edison TOTALLY invented 1,000 things; why he's no thief at all...).
Fixed.
Wealthy means rich and equal. This why I'm not including China, India, Indonesia, etc. in places I consider rich. And how is falling victim to a totalitarian regime rejecting all services for decades and getting conquered a zillion times over successful (back then I guess you could make the case, but I forgot to mention I meant now).

Western and Northern European countries aren't the only successful places. Nor are all Western and Northern European countries successful. At the moment, here's the list in alphabetical order off the top of my head (not including Vatican City which is more of a protected religious settlement then a country, but let's not get into that). Note: I include some countries with limited recognition. This is from the most recent HDI with the homophobic countries not included.
  • Andorra
  • Argentina
  • Austria
  • Australia
  • Belgium
  • Canada
  • Chile
  • Croatia
  • Cyprus
  • Czechia
  • Denmark
  • Estonia
  • Finland
  • France
  • Germany
  • Greece
  • Hong Kong
  • Hungary
  • Iceland
  • Ireland
  • Israel
  • Japan
  • Latvia
  • Liechtenstein
  • Lithuania
  • Luxembourg
  • Malta
  • Macao
  • Monaco
  • Netherlands
  • New Zealand
  • Norway
  • Poland
  • Portugal
  • San Marino
  • Slovakia
  • Slovenia
  • South Korea
  • Spain
  • Sweden
  • Switzerland
  • Taiwan
  • United Kingdom
  • United States
Also, mark what you fixed next time.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Micamo » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 00:43

The real problem here: You can't assign game-like stats or numbers to real-life groups of people without offending someone, somewhere, somehow.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Zontas » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 00:44

Micamo wrote:The real problem here: You can't assign game-like stats or numbers to real-life groups of people without offending someone, somewhere, somehow.
Thus failing to remember they willfully joined. Why mote one love their country? National pride is a concept that just gave people an excuse to alienate others for reasons beyond their control.

If a list acts to patriotic, keep in mind there are places that finish after said patriotic country.

Edited
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by decem » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 01:27

I really like Western Europe.
Omzinesy wrote:I think it's actually good to think that your part of the world is the best one. It's the only reason to live there.
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But there are some pretty cool places elsewhere too.
I'm fully aware the Colosseum is in Europe.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Iron » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 01:39

I think that much of the Eurocentrism nowadays is based on the modern versions of today's Europe, and not most of its history. Sure, nowadays it's mostly a great place, but it was mostly a shithole during the medieval period and before. Just like with the Middle East, which in way shifted "places" with Europe.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by cybrxkhan » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 02:35

I... I think I should probably avoid any thread that guy goes into. He seems like one of those Eurocentrists who thinks he or she knows quite a lot about history, when that "history" is mostly just "good things we Westerners did and bad things everybody else did".


Oh well. I guess I'd be pretty pissed off at Sinocentrists too if there were enough of them around on English-speaking forums.

Iron wrote:I think that much of the Eurocentrism nowadays is based on the modern versions of today's Europe, and not most of its history. Sure, nowadays it's mostly a great place, but it was mostly a shithole during the medieval period and before. Just like with the Middle East, which in way shifted "places" with Europe.
Yeah, pretty much. Eurocentrists look at the Middle East with all its terrorism and fundamentalism and blah blah blah these days, and assume that the Middle East has always been a "backwards" (whatever that means), oppressive place full of murder and atrocities and whatever. They conveniently forget that Europe was just as "backwards" and oppressive for much of its history, if not more so than that of the Middle East.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 05:10

The Arabic world invented the concept of zero, revolutionizing mathematics... and they have/had amazing architecture and non-representational art that makes use of complicated geometry... I have always thought they were pretty cool (current terrorism and ridiculousness notwithstanding).
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Zontas » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 05:39

XXXVII wrote:The Arabic world invented the concept of zero, revolutionizing mathematics... and they have/had amazing architecture and non-representational art that makes use of complicated geometry... I have always thought they were pretty cool (current terrorism and ridiculousness notwithstanding).
It's because we (Western Europe colonisation and the brutal Ottoman Empire) ruined everything by pillaging resources and arbitrarily dividing lands. Places like Qatar, Bahrain, United Arab Emirates, Soqotri, and Oman are pretty well-off in spite of their misogyny, xenechthra*, and homosexualechthra*.

*echthtra=hatred in greek
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by cybrxkhan » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 06:07

XXXVII wrote:The Arabic world invented the concept of zero, revolutionizing mathematics... and they have/had amazing architecture and non-representational art that makes use of complicated geometry... I have always thought they were pretty cool (current terrorism and ridiculousness notwithstanding).
I myself am pretty fond of Moroccan and Andalusian culture and architecture. The Alhambra is awesome.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Xing » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 09:28

It's of course a simplification to believe that "Europeans are all good, and non-Europeans are all bad". But it's just as much a simplification to believe that all civilisations are equal. Wealth is not something that just falls down from the sky, randomly in some parts of the world but not in others. Neither is it something that "naturally" is possessed equally by everybody, so that differences in its possession necessarily must be the result of theft. Though chance and theft may account for some differences in relative wealth and prosperity between various cultures (and individuals within different cultures) - one further possibility that needs to be considered seriously is that different social and cultural arrangements may be more or less favourable to the creation of various material and non-material goods.

It's an extremely complicated historical question why such conditions that proved to be favourable to the creation of wealth evolved in western and northern Europe. It's surely not because of some inherent racial qualities of Europeans - which parts of the worlds that are the most prosperous has changed, and is likely to change in the future.
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by decem » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 10:21

cybrxkhan wrote:I... I think I should probably avoid any thread that guy goes into. He seems like one of those Eurocentrists...
Me? No, I just wanted to provoke a little. Yes I do like Europe, but I certainly know it's not the model example of civilisation, in the past OR the present. In fact it's probably one of the worst examples - being crazily dominated by Christianity hindering advances for centuries and being dominated all the while by huge autocracies, the centre of several large empires which took most of the wealth for itself, the primary location of both world wars, and it's made a mess of itself economically (and possibly politically) recently. \o/
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Re: Conversation Thread of the 3rd SPAM!

Post by Thrice Xandvii » Sun 31 Mar 2013, 10:31

Xing wrote:Though chance and theft may account for some differences in relative wealth and prosperity between various cultures (and individuals within different cultures) - one further possibility that needs to be considered seriously is that different social and cultural arrangements may be more or less favourable to the creation of various material and non-material goods.
I don't think that wealth (much like box-office sales don't necessarily determine that a movie is actually "good") should be used (by itself) to determine relative "goodness" of any one particular society. I'm not saying that's what you're doing or advocating, but merely taking your mention as a jumping off point for the thought.

I think we in the West (with our system of capitalism in firm grip) have somehow fallen under the impression that money and wealth is the be-all and end-all. In my estimation, it most assuredly is not, and there are many other factors that should be taken into account: artistic achievement, philosophy, medical knowledge, familial relations, etc. ad infinitum. In short, it is really really hard to determine the relative merit of a culture.
decemarietis wrote:
cybrxkhan wrote:I... I think I should probably avoid any thread that guy goes into. He seems like one of those Eurocentrists...
Me? No, I just wanted to provoke a little. Yes I do like Europe, but I certainly know it's not the model example of civilisation, in the past OR the present. In fact it's probably one of the worst examples - being crazily dominated by Christianity hindering advances for centuries and being dominated all the while by huge autocracies, the centre of several large empires which took most of the wealth for itself, the primary location of both world wars, and it's made a mess of itself economically (and possibly politically) recently. \o/
I thought he was referring to the person in that other forum who he previously mentioned... not anyone here. But, of course, I could be wrong.
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