Eurocentrism [Split Topic]

[Yačay256]

The reason you are being Eurocentric specifically is because all of your examples of how China was so progressive in the sphere of religion were cast against how Europe had it so much worse. The Eurocentrism is in the fact that you are basing the very idea of what a religion is on the European understanding of Catholicism. China has had many oppressive points under Confucian philosophy where intellectualism stagnated. Europe under the rule of Catholicism was actually not as oppressive as a lot of history books want to say. The "Dark Ages" weren't as dark as many people think they were today, and Europe sure didn't hold the monopoly on dark times and anti-intellectualism.

tl;dr: It's great that you read some books on East Asia. That doesn't mean you aren't being Eurocentric.

Doesn't that technically make me Sinocentric?

Look, I do not want to fight with anyone but with that said, I must ask what makes you (and Salmoneus) think that you know so much more than me about Chinese Civilization? Not only have I read the aforementioned books (which apparently does not matter unless I come back from them with the same conclusions as you do...) but also I frankly live in an area where my local grocery store is dominated by Chinese-speaking People and their food (which I regularly cook, just for the record) and I go to college with probably more Chinese-Americans than Anglo-Americans - and I honestly get along better with most Chinese People, including two of whom I have discussed history and politics of China and elsewhere with, than most Anglo-Americans their. Finally, my neighbours - who I have all met - are Hmong-American, Mexican-American and Marshallese-American, respectively, and I am currently close friends with an ethnically P'urhépecha girl from my logic class. Do you have any comparable real-world experiences with people from various non-Western Cultures? They as a while never seem to get offended at my ideas about their various cultures and, as a matter of fact, they as a whole are regularly warmly impressed as they are so shocked that someone of my heritage (mainly West African and German, though my maternal grandmother spoke fluent Cherokee, for the record) actually understands certain aspects of their own cultural traditions and furthermore they as a whole regularly defend me when I attack blatant Eurocentricism and covert racism from certain self-described "White" People in my classes' discussions when the aforementioned "race" makes genuinely offensive offhanded comments about most any non-Western culture.

[Ear of the Sphinx]

The reason you are being Eurocentric specifically is because all of your examples of how China was so progressive in the sphere of religion were cast against how Europe had it so much worse. The Eurocentrism is in the fact that you are basing the very idea of what a religion is on the European understanding of Catholicism. China has had many oppressive points under Confucian philosophy where intellectualism stagnated. Europe under the rule of Catholicism was actually not as oppressive as a lot of history books want to say. The "Dark Ages" weren't as dark as many people think they were today, and Europe sure didn't hold the monopoly on dark times and anti-intellectualism.

tl;dr: It's great that you read some books on East Asia. That doesn't mean you aren't being Eurocentric.

Doesn't that technically make me Sinocentric?

No.
Your skin doesn't get yellow, either.

[Thakowsaizmu]

...

Spoiler:

[Yačay256]

...

Spoiler:

Now that is clearly race-baiting, pure and simple. But just so you know, I don't consider myself a member of any ethnicity strongly enough to identify it, so your race baiting won't work here.

Now, if you want to be mature about the topic, please stop nitpicking and act civil towards me and I will act civil towards you. "Civil" does not mean you have to agree with me, but it does mean you have to act mature, as do I. I do not want to get the moderators involved as I see no need, being that I will give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Also: Please stop picking and choosing things to attack and beat to death where I was wrong or misspoke. Why don't you take on what I said about the Inka or the other things I said about China besides the priesthood comment in my first post.

Yes, it is true: I am not Sinocentric (asking you if I was a rhetorical question). Of course I am ethnocentric (like every other person on Earth), but please don't just assume you know what is going on within my mind or what I think about a wide variety of cultures just because I can write well in English.

Next: I know Mao did many bad things - backyard furnaces, for example - but I would say that Deng Xiaopeng was far worse for China than Mao was: China had a stable economy, was indeed further modernizing (despite your arguments to the contrary) . And about the terrorism and China: I know good and well that China has religious strife. But arguing that the PRC is horrible for banning certain religions - like the Catholic Church, with its patriarchal and oppressive teachings, or Fulan Gong, which harvests organs for profit, or so many other Christian sects, which are not really much different - just does not seem that bad to me, especially if the PRC is keeping nuts and bozos from doing the harm they do in much of the West with its excessive "religious freedom" (really, special privileges for religions) by doing so, then I really don't shed a tear for the Catholics, or the Fulan Gong practitioners or the other people being discriminated against in China, for they have already shown that they have done far more harm in the name of the Christian Faith than Confucians have done throughout history in the name of social order and morality. What about the Great Amerindian Genocide, done in no small part in the name of Christianity? Did the Chinese ever burn people alive for reading in their own writing system, while attempting to destroy all traces of it in vast bookburnings, on a mass scale in the name of Confucius, Laozi or the Jade Emperor, as the Christians did to the Maya, other Mesoamerican Peoples or the Inka in the name of Jesus Christ?

Oh, and don't forget that the Soviet Union and even more so Communist Albania, both Western countries, attacked religion just as, or, in the case of Albania, far more than the PRC ever did or does today. And the cultural revolution was a short period compared to the Dark Ages (which were indeed dark, compared to what was going on in India or China or the Middle East at the time Europeans were suffering through them) and there were redeeming things that came of it, much more than the Carolinian Renaissance.

Finally: How do you know so much about China that puts my reading and direct experiences to shame? If not, what kind of a community do you live in (no need to reveal anything personal, just a question of direct experiences)?

[Ossicone]

Modicone:

No.
Your skin doesn't get yellow, either.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. But I feel like it's edging closely to breaking rule #5 (if not over the line).

5. No trolling. As a general rule, do not post things that you know are going to offend, annoy or otherwise provoke other people. Sometimes there may be a good reason that justifies posting something provocative, but in such a case, provide an explanation for why you're doing so and be prepared for a debate to defend your position.

Thakowsaizmu, I also feel that the passive-aggressive/flippant nature of some of the above posts breaks rule #2.

2. Somewhat related to the above, don't bite the newbies. Just because someone knows less about languages or linguistics (or anything, really) than you do does not give you an excuse to be rude to them. We do not have any minimum standard of linguistic knowledge required for membership on this board, so don't make it look like we did.

Of course, it's okay to point it out when people make mistakes; that's how they learn (hopefully). But try to do it politely. And be specific; tell them exactly what they're doing wrong. General dismissive comments along the lines of "come back when you've learned more" are not very helpful, and are likely to be taken badly even if you don't mean them that way.

Please don't make it so I have to lock this thread because there is good information here and it's an interesting topic to discuss.

[Yačay256]

Modicone:

No.
Your skin doesn't get yellow, either.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. But I feel like it's edging closely to breaking rule #5 (if not over the line).

5. No trolling. As a general rule, do not post things that you know are going to offend, annoy or otherwise provoke other people. Sometimes there may be a good reason that justifies posting something provocative, but in such a case, provide an explanation for why you're doing so and be prepared for a debate to defend your position.

Thakowsaizmu, I also feel that the passive-aggressive/flippant nature of some of the above posts breaks rule #2.

2. Somewhat related to the above, don't bite the newbies. Just because someone knows less about languages or linguistics (or anything, really) than you do does not give you an excuse to be rude to them. We do not have any minimum standard of linguistic knowledge required for membership on this board, so don't make it look like we did.

Of course, it's okay to point it out when people make mistakes; that's how they learn (hopefully). But try to do it politely. And be specific; tell them exactly what they're doing wrong. General dismissive comments along the lines of "come back when you've learned more" are not very helpful, and are likely to be taken badly even if you don't mean them that way.

Please don't make it so I have to lock this thread because there is good information here and it's an interesting topic to discuss.

I apologize for any rules I may have broken. If you want me to stop posting on this thread, I will do so immediately.

[Ear of the Sphinx]

Modicone:

No.
Your skin doesn't get yellow, either.

I'm not sure what the point of this post is. But I feel like it's edging closely to breaking rule #5 (if not over the line).

5. No trolling. As a general rule, do not post things that you know are going to offend, annoy or otherwise provoke other people. Sometimes there may be a good reason that justifies posting something provocative, but in such a case, provide an explanation for why you're doing so and be prepared for a debate to defend your position.

Ban me.

[Xonen]

I apologize for any rules I may have broken. If you want me to stop posting on this thread, I will do so immediately.

AFAICT, you haven't exactly broken any rules, nor do you need to stop posting - but I would advise you to stop responding to other people citing historical facts with bragging about how many "ethnic" friends you have. Knowing a few or even a few dozen people from a different culture doesn't make you an expert on their history, and trying to play it like some kind of trump card seems arrogant and really annoying. Not that this justifies other people being just plain rude, though.

To be fair, however, I don't think you're being particularly Eurocentric here, at least not in how I'd normally understand that term. Based on what you've written so far, though, I do kind of get the picture that you have some kind of ideological commitment towards seeing non-Western cultures in a perhaps unrealistically positive light, to the point where it's skewing your judgement on some things. So basically, you need to keep an open mind to the idea that perhaps humans are equally capable of atrocities no matter where they're from; otherwise I really don't see much point in continuing this discussion.

[Sasquatch]

As an anarchist I find this thread a bit amusing. Patriotism and civic pride hinge on the notion that there is something bigger and more important than the individual. This is paradoxical since fictional entities such as nations allegedly exist to support and defend the individual. I see all forms of cultural identity as equally wrong-headed. I don't identify myself as an american because there is no such thing. I am an individual with my own peculiar set of wants and needs entirely distinct from the set of wants and needs of everybody else who reads this. Therefor I cannot be grouped in with everybody else who reads this because it is impossible to meet all our individual goals with a single collective effort.

However, I think the knee-jerk reaction of avoiding all things "euro" is still eurocentric. You are still centering your decisions around whatever is "euro". Only instead of chasing those "euro" ideals you run from them. To be truly non-centric you have to be willing to pick and choose from all the available options.

[Yačay256]

I apologize for any rules I may have broken. If you want me to stop posting on this thread, I will do so immediately.

AFAICT, you haven't exactly broken any rules, nor do you need to stop posting - but I would advise you to stop responding to other people citing historical facts with bragging about how many "ethnic" friends you have. Knowing a few or even a few dozen people from a different culture doesn't make you an expert on their history, and trying to play it like some kind of trump card seems arrogant and really annoying. Not that this justifies other people being just plain rude, though.

To be fair, however, I don't think you're being particularly Eurocentric here, at least not in how I'd normally understand that term. Based on what you've written so far, though, I do kind of get the picture that you have some kind of ideological commitment towards seeing non-Western cultures in a perhaps unrealistically positive light, to the point where it's skewing your judgement on some things. So basically, you need to keep an open mind to the idea that perhaps humans are equally capable of atrocities no matter where they're from; otherwise I really don't see much point in continuing this discussion.

Fair enough. I do believe that I mentioned quite a few things that I had read in addition to the "ethnic friends" comments; I was not trying to brag about having "ethnic friends" so much as I was trying to understand, given my readings and my real-life experiences with people of various cultural backgrounds, whether the other person concerned in this incident had any real-life experiences, like actually travelling oversees in a non-Western culture (which I have yet to do, though I very much want to). Furthermore, I would like to note that Thakowsaizmu did not reference any actual sources during our incident.

While I am still not exactly sure why I should not bring up real-life incidents I feel are related to the topic, I will do as is required on this board.

Thank You Xonen.

[Thakowsaizmu]

Furthermore, I would like to note that Thakowsaizmu did not reference any actual sources during our incident.

That particular conversation is over. Stop baiting and let it go.

[Yačay256]

Furthermore, I would like to note that Thakowsaizmu did not reference any actual sources during our incident.

That particular conversation is over. Stop baiting and let it go.

I did not mean to bait you, if I did so it was completely unintentional. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.

The point I was trying to make with regards to what I said in the text you quoted was towards Xonen, not you. And furthermore, it was essentially related to my desire to understand the conduct of the board in general, not to bait or challenge anyone. I simply used the most relevant example, which was you. I did not mean to attack you or anything like that.

[Xonen]

Furthermore, I would like to note that Thakowsaizmu did not reference any actual sources during our incident.

I said "facts", not "sources". Perhaps "cite" wasn't the correct verb to use in the absence of actual citations, but the point was that others were arguing with facts, and instead of actually addressing their points, you responded with a list of people you know.

As for our policy on actually citing sources, we don't have anything official written down yet (perhaps I'll get around to it one of these days) - but the unofficial practice has been that it's generally not required. Now, if you have a valid reason to suppose that someone has actually gotten their facts wrong, then you can of course ask for a source; just please don't do that for facts that you could easily have checked on Wikipedia yourself.

While I am still not exactly sure why I should not bring up real-life incidents I feel are related to the topic

Thing is, it wasn't really relevant to the discussion. I'm not sure what your actual intended purpose was for going off on this particular tangent, but it kinda looked like you were trying to invalidate other people's points by questioning their "credentials" instead of actually addressing said points.

[threecat]

- just does not seem that bad to me, especially if the PRC is keeping nuts and bozos from doing the harm they do in much of the West with its excessive "religious freedom" (really, special privileges for religions) by doing

@Yacay:If you think the PRC is doing a good job from preventing religious fanatics from doing harm, what's your opinion of the idea of the Chinese state-controlled churches that can't rebel against goverment? Also, do you think religions should be allowed to be persecuted?

[eldin raigmore]

... especially if the PRC is keeping nuts and bozos from doing the harm they do in much of the West with its excessive "religious freedom" (really, special privileges for religions) by doing so, ...

Sorry, you're confusing the USA with the West.
In much of Western Europe, e.g. the French Republic, the separation of church and state is interpreted as not allowing any religion any privileges.

[Hyolobrika]

[quote=Zontas] most Americans are of West-European descent so it helps to make the majority learn about their culture before they learn about a minority's[/quote]
One could also argue, though, that there's less of a need to learn about a culture one is already in contact with the results of.

[quote=cybrxkhan]this sort of attitude towards non-European societies is ... still going strong, and it's still subtly a part of our mass media and academia that must be eradicated ruthlessly and without mercy.[/quote]
That's bad. Canst thou give me some links so that I may counter it?

[quote=cybrxkhan][They said that] European civs were being looked down upon because the economic and scientific achievements of European civs are being ignored, the European civs are "weak", ..., because of some political correctness on the part of the devs[/quote]
That's only Eurocentric if he's both wrong and knows it. Thou shouldst link to the thread so we can judge.

[quote=cybrxkhan]puny, western part of Eurasia[/quote]
That's incredibly hypocritical of thee, why dost thou feel the need to baselessly put the west down? Either a) thou dost not understand that power =/= worth, thou hast an us-vs-them attitude and thou art non-European in some way. Therefore thou wishest to desperately make thineself feel powerful and others weak or b) thou beleivest in guilt by association and therefore that the west deserves at least one insult.
In case b how is it fair to heap guilt on people who may not know 'their' own crimes?

[Ahzoh]

That's only Eurocentric if he's both wrong and knows it.

No, that would make him a liar, and not all Eurocentrists (or any other centrists) are liars. If people believe things, it is because they think they are true. Conversely, they are wrong and don't know it.

Wealthy means rich and equal. This why I'm not including China, India, Indonesia, etc. in places I consider rich. And how is falling victim to a totalitarian regime rejecting all services for decades and getting conquered a zillion times over successful (back then I guess you could make the case, but I forgot to mention I meant now).

Well then there isn't a single rich/wealthy country in the world.

[Xonen]

This argument died four years ago, and according to their profiles, Zontas and cybrxkhan haven't even visited the board in, respectively, months or years. I think necromancy is fairly unproductive at this point.

[Ahzoh]

This argument died four years ago, and according to their profiles, Zontas and cybrxkhan haven't even visited the board in, respectively, months or years. I think necromancy is fairly unproductive at this point.

Aye, this thread should be locked then.