Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

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Lambuzhao
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Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 17:36

Micamo wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:No, no, no, we aren't obsessed with war and death... eh, we are only... fascinated by death... to a degree like no other. Certainly not with causing it, no. Not unless it's the death of the Mitsim!
An entire culture fascinated by death makes as much sense (and is just as interesting as) as an entire culture fascinated by brightly colored hats.

Think about it.
Well I thought about it, and two thoughts came to mind:
An entire culture fascinated by death...
Survey says... Ancient Egypt - for the block.
an entire culture fascinated by brightly colored hats
Can the 1960s count as a 'culture' for this one?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wSEi50dmuUc/T ... 725254.jpg
https://bettesbargains.files.wordpress. ... /hmb-4.jpg
Knitted loopy hats for loopy people
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ ... c0e1f6.jpg
Oh, the thoughts he thunk up with that very 'thinking-cap' - which I would kill for! [xP]
http://media.liveauctiongroup.net/i/5736/8632576_2.jpg
What the hell?! What in blazes?!? Good heavens! Run Forrest, just run!

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/ ... a4d15a.jpg
My eyes... they burn! [:'(]


If so, I wager the 1960s for 2 billion dactaris.
Woops, What is the 1960s?, for 2 billion, Wink.


Were both interesting? The ginchiest, man! [:D]
Did either the 1960s or Ancient Egypt make any kind of sense?
Ummm.....
...lemme get back to you on that one.
It's a toughie.
[¬.¬]

https://thelujonmagazine.files.wordpres ... eisand.jpg
http://barbratimeless.com/07wherewhen.jpg
[<3]
Wow, though.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 17:44

Lambuzhao speaks the truth. Ancient Egypt was monolithically focused on death...
Last edited by Ahzoh on Wed 03 Jun 2015, 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 17:45

cntrational wrote:the point is that no culture is so monolithically interested in only one thing
The irony that drips from that statement....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... i_0489.JPG

http://famouswonders.com/wp-content/gal ... yramid.jpg

http://images.fineartamerica.com/images ... kwoldt.jpg

http://blog.seattlepi.com/thebigblog/fi ... _mummy.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Gtno7TdEu4s/T ... kofdd0.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

... could quench a desert.

For literally thousands of years, their motto was "You haven't lived until you died"

:!:
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:30

How closely connected was the average Egyptian to the epic necropolises and the sarcophagi slathered in gold? All I'm seeing here are artifacts of the rich and powerful.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by cntrational » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:35

Um.

All that suggests to me that you know nothing substantial about Ancient Egypt.
Last edited by cntrational on Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:49

And you wouldn't be wrong. However, I do know the examples above were created for royalty, dignitaries, the upper class. If Lambuzhao is trying to convince us Egypt was uniformly obsessed with death, he could perhaps show some examples from below the upper crust.
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by cntrational » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:58

That was to Lambuzhao and Ahzoh, soz
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Re: The Majestic 4th Conversation Thread

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 20:59

[:x] [xD] C'est la vie.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 03 Jun 2015, 23:40

Dormouse559 wrote:How closely connected was the average Egyptian to the epic necropolises and the sarcophagi slathered in gold? All I'm seeing here are artifacts of the rich and powerful.
[+1] [+1]

(Insert standard "I should by no means be considered an actual expert of any kind on anything" warning here.)

The term "Ancient Egypt" is used to refer to an enormously large period of time. Now, I don't know what the current field of "mainstream" egyptology generally considers to be acceptable beginning and end dates for the period of time defined as "Ancient Egypt", if such a general consensus has even been reached, but you don't have to set the end points at ca. 3100 BC, the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt under (probably) Narmer/Menes, and ca. 30 BC, Cleopatra's suicide following the Battle of Actium (among other events), to see what a long period of time "Ancient Egypt" was.

That took more words to say than I thought it would, but the point is that cultures are constantly changing. Over three thousand years, a culture would change a lot. Being able to trace your cultural ancestry (or being able to have your cultural ancestry traced by outsiders once your civilization "falls") back several thousand years doesn't mean you're exempt from that kind of change. We can't look at the (relatively) few artifacts that we still have from (mostly) upper-class people who lived at different points throughout a three thousand year period approximately two thousand years after the civilization in question "ended" (and that's only one possible "end date") and say that the civilization/culture in question was "monolithically" focused on anything. If someone were to argue that modern egyptology is largely focused on the subject of death in "Ancient Egyptian" culture and religion, I might be inclined to agree (at least based on what I've personally experienced… hell, I can see a translated copy of a version of "The Book of the Dead"* from where I'm sitting right now). But that's not what's being argued here.

Yes, preparing for the afterlife was a fairly significant aspect of "Ancient Egyptian" religion, especially for the rich and powerful, but death was not even close to being the only thing people, especially common people who weren't employed in death-related industries, thought about on a daily basis. Off the top of my head, I'd say that farming/the Nile was pretty important to the majority of "Ancient Egyptians", and I'd bet that that's an aspect of the culture that didn't change as much over thirty centuries as customs and beliefs relating to death, burials, and the afterlife. There were thousands of years of food, war, art, prayer, trade, architecture, fear, love, recreation, and so much more - just like any other civilization/culture/society/whatever. Yes, there was death too, but death is universal - I wouldn't say that death was considerably more prominent at all in "Ancient Egypt" than in most other cultures, modern or premodern. And I suppose you could argue that many of those things (art, architecture, fear, war, prayer, etc.) can be tied back to death, but come on… the same kind of argument could be made to make pretty much any culture seem "monolithically" focused on pretty much anything.

To paraphrase a misquotation, reports of Egyptian funerary customs have been greatly exaggerated.

(*I think it's worth mentioning that the concept of "The Book of the Dead" only really came into popular use near the beginning of the New Kingdom, ca. 1550 BC. If I had to guess, I'd say that a lot of what most people today think of as "Ancient Egyptian" is actually more characteristic of the New Kingdom, AKA Dynasties 18-20, in particular, which by itself lasted roughly 500 years, a few centuries longer than the US has existed as of 2015.)

I meant to give my two cents, but it looks like I ended up dropping a few bucks where they weren't needed… Anyway, I personally don't have a problem with how Ahzoh has described their conculture's views on death (or anything else about them, for that matter). They've even said that they don't mean for the culture to be obsessed with death and death alone. Such a culture, thought up by anyone, would almost certainly be unrealistic, but I myself wouldn't immediately write it off as uninteresting. But Ahzoh's conculture, or that of anyone else, was not the point here, at least not in my eyes.

I feel like I should add that this isn't meant as an attack of any kind on anyone.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 00:23

Dormouse559 wrote:And you wouldn't be wrong. However, I do know the examples above were created for royalty, dignitaries, the upper class. If Lambuzhao is trying to convince us Egypt was uniformly obsessed with death, he could perhaps show some examples from below the upper crust.
Dormouse559 wrote:And you wouldn't be wrong. However, I do know the examples above were created for royalty, dignitaries, the upper class. If Lambuzhao is trying to convince us Egypt was uniformly obsessed with death, he could perhaps show some examples from below the upper crust.
Here's one, for starters -
http://coloradotravelingducks.com/2015/ ... in-denver/
scroll down to the poor woman mummy - with ducks! (?)
[<3]

Since we're making petitions, I'll ante up some more if you could show me some original parchments
of poetry written completely in Vulgar Latin.

[>:D]
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 00:37

Dormouse559 wrote:How closely connected was the average Egyptian to the epic necropolises and the sarcophagi slathered in gold? All I'm seeing here are artifacts of the rich and powerful.
What kind of a question is that? How close is "close"?

For all their supposedly sheltered lives, the rich and wealthy of Egypt weren't complete recluses. And even if they were, they needed servants, who in turn were in touch with various vendors, merchants, and other businessfolk. They were in contact with accountants and scribes. And let's not forget those poorest of Egyptians (and other non-Egyptians) who were forced to at least consider all this hullaballoo about death and the Afterlife, as they built these monuments. After all, Horem Haktut Neqet-Ptah didn't build his necropolis with is own bare hands. These rich folk weren't Johnny Depps who live obscure private lives on Caribbean isles, nor Mediterranean Isles for that matter. Maybe a couple of such folks were on one of the very sparse Nile Isles.

In a way, that's like asking how closely connected was the average Egyptian to the Eiffel Tower. On any given day, there were plenty of Egyptians who weren't contemplating the inexorable dance of Life-Death-Afterlife (a.k.a. Birth-Death=Rebirth | Extistence-Painful Dismemberment-Ghoulish Reanimation), or even just death. Most were probably just happy to be actively putting Death off for another day.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 00:47

shimobaatar wrote:
To paraphrase a misquotation, reports of Egyptian funerary customs have been greatly exaggerated.
Pyramids - now there's an Egyptian Funerary custom greatly exaggerated.

I haven't seen the Pyramids up close yet.

I can only imagine how universally enormous they will seem to my miniscule self.

I cannot wait.

Nobody needs to exaggerate Egyptian funerary customs, because the Egyptians themselves did a fantastic, colossal job all on their own.

The Pyramids can also be seen from space-
http://www.universetoday.com/93398/can- ... rom-space/

My big fat head, for as little as it's worth, can not be seen from space.
But the Pyramids can bee seen from space.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 00:50

cntrational wrote:That was to Lambuzhao and Ahzoh, soz
Thanks, you're a dear heart
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Lambuzhao » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 00:55

Ahzoh wrote:Lambuzhao speaks the truth. Ancient Egypt was monolithically focused on death...
Really, it's all about Birth-Life-Death-Rebirth-Afterlife

But what do I know - Quasinihil from a Quasinemo. :roll:
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by elemtilas » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 01:40

Lambuzhao wrote:or even just death. Most were probably just happy to be actively putting Death off for another day.
Wake up every morning and predict: I shall not die today!

Go to sleep every night thankful you were right.

When the time comes, be content.
Image

If we stuff the whole chicken back into the egg, will all our problems go away? --- Wandalf of Angera
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 02:06

Lambuzhao wrote:What kind of a question is that? How close is "close"?
Not the question you think I asked. I asked "How close were they?", "What was their proximity?" I didn't intend to imply any threshholds. But let me rephrase: "How much did the average Egyptian feel these monuments represented them, their culture, their outlook on life?"
Lambuzhao wrote:And let's not forget those poorest of Egyptians (and other non-Egyptians) who were forced to at least consider all this hullaballoo about death and the Afterlife, as they built these monuments. After all, Horem Haktut Neqet-Ptah didn't build his necropolis with is own bare hands.
Indeed. But the people who build something aren't necessarily interested in what it means or thinking it has anything to do with them beyond either "I have to do this" or "I'm paid to do this". I don't see what I can learn about a poor Egyptian's view of death from the monumental structures they helped build. Aren't the structures more direct comments on the mindset of the people who commissioned, designed and produced them?
Lambuzhao wrote:In a way, that's like asking how closely connected was the average Egyptian to the Eiffel Tower.
It's likely an average Egyptian wouldn't see their culture reflected in the Eiffel Tower. We haven't however established that an average Egyptian would see the Great Pyramid any differently. There are plenty of French people who don't identify with the Eiffel Tower, or Paris for that matter.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 04:07

Lambuzhao wrote:Pyramids - now there's an Egyptian Funerary custom greatly exaggerated.

I haven't seen the Pyramids up close yet.

I can only imagine how universally enormous they will seem to my miniscule self.

I cannot wait.

Nobody needs to exaggerate Egyptian funerary customs, because the Egyptians themselves did a fantastic, colossal job all on their own.

The Pyramids can also be seen from space-
http://www.universetoday.com/93398/can- ... rom-space/

My big fat head, for as little as it's worth, can not be seen from space.
But the Pyramids can bee seen from space.
First of all, I wasn't kidding when I said this:
shimobaatar wrote:I feel like I should add that this isn't meant as an attack of any kind on anyone.
And I'm pretty certain that goes for anyone else involved in this conversation as well. [D:] I'm sorry if any of what I've said has come off as insulting or personally attacking anyone.

Secondly, and more relevantly, how does all this about the pyramids prove that the majority of Egyptians throughout the majority of Ancient Egyptian history were focused almost entirely on death? Yes, the pyramids in question are very big. But look at the large structures that have been built since then (at least some of which, I'm sure, can be seen from space). For example, I live right outside of Philadelphia. I'm not saying the Comcast Center can be seen from space, but that's not the most important detail, I feel. It's a large building. I see it off in the distance pretty much every day (or at least I do during periods of time when I'm healthy), but that doesn't mean our culture is dominated by thoughts of Comcast, or even by thoughts of mass media, broadcasting, internet, cable, telephones, business/economics, consumerism, capitalism, advertising, or anything like that. I know this is a bad example of what I'm trying to say, largely because it's difficult to make a perfect or nearly perfect comparison between the entirety of Ancient Egypt and modern Philadelphia, but I hope even of a fraction of what I'm trying to say makes sense. Yes, things like the internet, the media, the economy, communication, etc. are very important parts of the world, and some might say our culture, today. Most, but not 100%, of the world's population thinks about things like that at least once or twice on a daily basis (some people do so more than the average person, and some people do so less than the average person - your job and your location, among other things, have a lot to do with how much you think about things like this). However, I wouldn't describe any culture today as being "monolithically" focused on anything represented by the tall buildings we've constructed. There are plenty of people who think more about other things.

I'm feeling quite tired. Today has gone by very quickly.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by Ahzoh » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 04:53

Well one things for sure, the Ancient Egyptians were monolithically focused on religion...

A culture shall be monolithically focused on one or a few things and still be interesting... Who says why can't?
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 05:20

Ahzoh wrote:Well one things for sure, the Ancient Egyptians were monolithically focused on religion...
Well, I can't say I agree about that 100%, but that would probably come down to a slap-fight between myself and at least one other party about semantics and things that happened too long ago for anyone to really know the details of for certain, and that's one of the last things I want to discuss right now, or ever. I'm unusually tired at the moment.

Anyway, thank goodness for Rule #7. The people whose opinions about the rules actually matter may or may not consider that rule relevant here, but I'm using it as a reason to just say that I agree with you for the most part, and leave it at that.
Ahzoh wrote:A culture shall be monolithically focused on one or a few things and still be interesting... Who says why can't?
What are you trying to say here? It seems like there was a typo or two (autocorrect?).

If you're saying that a conculture monolithically focused on one or two things isn't automatically uninteresting, I agree. I feel it could be done well. It could also be done poorly, of course, but I personally wouldn't consider that a given for the "genre".
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture

Post by gach » Thu 04 Jun 2015, 05:37

I find it strange that we specifically have the idea that the ancient Egypt would be obsessed about death. The funerary customs of the ancient Chinese ruling class for example don't look very different from them with all their mummies and pyramid building and yet somehow we don't associate this culture with death.
Ahzoh wrote:Well one things for sure, the Ancient Egyptians were monolithically focused on religion
I wonder what you base that idea on since the ancient Egyptian literature I've read doesn't support that view. The stories do mention religious concepts but no more than any other ancient culture would and they certainly aren't focussed on religion.
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