Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

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Salmoneus
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 09 Jun 2015, 13:09

alynnidalar wrote:Christianity, I suspect?

But that's not at all what Christians (or at least most Christian groups I am aware of) believe is happening when we take communion/break bread/participate in the Lord's Supper/whatever term you prefer. We are only remembering the one single sacrifice of Christ; it's kind of a major part of Christian theology that that was the final, complete sacrifice and no other sacrifices are or will ever be necessary. "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God", etc. etc.
Please do not assume that 'christian' and 'evangelical protestant' are the same thing.

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all believe that the bread and wine truly and really become the body and blood of Jesus. Anglicanism used to reject this, but has been gradually drifting toward this position, particularly in the High Church - the general position is now one of 'substantial agreement' with catholic teaching, but not necessarily agreeing with the specific term 'transubstantiation'. Lutherans also believe that they are eating the body and blood of Jesus, they just believe that it is also bread and wine at the same time (consubstantiation, rather than transubstantiation, although technically they have another term for it; this is also probably the anglican position). Methodists also believe (usually) in the 'real presence' of Jesus in the bread and wine, although I don't know if they necessarily think the bread and wine ARE jesus (they don't believe they're JUST jesus, certainly). Calvinists and Reformed likewise believe in eating the body of Jesus: "when we have received the symbol of the body, let us rest assured that the body itself is also given to us," said Calvin, although his 'spiritual feeding' makes clear that although the physical body is eaten, it is not eaten physically, and is only eaten by true believers.

A minority of newer protestant sects may diverge from these teachings, but can hardly be taken as representative of christianity as a whole.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by alynnidalar » Tue 09 Jun 2015, 14:00

Salmoneus wrote:
alynnidalar wrote:Christianity, I suspect?

But that's not at all what Christians (or at least most Christian groups I am aware of) believe is happening when we take communion/break bread/participate in the Lord's Supper/whatever term you prefer. We are only remembering the one single sacrifice of Christ; it's kind of a major part of Christian theology that that was the final, complete sacrifice and no other sacrifices are or will ever be necessary. "But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God", etc. etc.
Please do not assume that 'christian' and 'evangelical protestant' are the same thing.

Catholics, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox all believe that the bread and wine truly and really become the body and blood of Jesus. Anglicanism used to reject this, but has been gradually drifting toward this position, particularly in the High Church - the general position is now one of 'substantial agreement' with catholic teaching, but not necessarily agreeing with the specific term 'transubstantiation'. Lutherans also believe that they are eating the body and blood of Jesus, they just believe that it is also bread and wine at the same time (consubstantiation, rather than transubstantiation, although technically they have another term for it; this is also probably the anglican position). Methodists also believe (usually) in the 'real presence' of Jesus in the bread and wine, although I don't know if they necessarily think the bread and wine ARE jesus (they don't believe they're JUST jesus, certainly). Calvinists and Reformed likewise believe in eating the body of Jesus: "when we have received the symbol of the body, let us rest assured that the body itself is also given to us," said Calvin, although his 'spiritual feeding' makes clear that although the physical body is eaten, it is not eaten physically, and is only eaten by true believers.

A minority of newer protestant sects may diverge from these teachings, but can hardly be taken as representative of christianity as a whole.
Right, I recognize that, I should've been more clear with my wording.

My understanding of transubstantiation was that while the bread/wine become the body/blood (in substance, not species), Christ still isn't being crucified again to provide that body/blood, right? That's really what I was reacting to in Keenir's post. There was one single crucifixion, and therefore one single sacrifice, and therefore it's an oversimplification at best to say that Christians "sacrifice" Christ repeatedly. Or do I understand Orthodox/Catholic teachings even more poorly than I thought?
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by Salmoneus » Tue 09 Jun 2015, 23:42

The eucharist is indeed known in catholicism as 'the eucharistic sacrifice'; its sacrificial nature is fundamental, since it links old and new testaments and fulfills the prophecy of Malachi that the gentiles around the world will offer 'a pure sacrifice' to god, so it's something that has been stressed right from the early church onward. Chrysostom says: "When you see the Lord immolated and lying upon the altar, and the priest bent over that sacrifice praying, and all the people empurpled by that precious blood, can you think that you are still among men and on earth? Or are you not lifted up to heaven?" Or Augustine: "In the sacrament he is immolated for the people not only on every Easter Solemnity but on every day; and a man would not be lying if, when asked, he were to reply that Christ is being immolated." And the Didache says: "Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one... For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled'" (quoting Malachi). Or even more plainly Hippolytus: "The Word prepared His Precious and immaculate Body and His Blood, that daily are set forth as a sacrifice on the mystic and Divine table."

whether that means there's more than one sacrifice is another matter. Chrysostom seems to say that there's only one sacrifice, just one that exists at many points in time and space; some other quotes about the priest becoming christ by taking the role of christ seem to point in that direction as well. Alternatively, and less mystically, it may just be that Christ only made one sacrifice, and everyone else is making sacrifices OF him in memory of HIS sacrific of himself.

You'd probably have to ask a believer, and ideally a theologian...
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 10 Jun 2015, 00:31

Inasmuch as it is a real sacrifice, where christ is present in the bread and wine, it does not follow exactly from traditional Jewish Temple formulae. It's closest analogue is the Pesach meal, upon which it is founded. Jesus co-opted it to a sacrificial end.

In addition to Sal's thoughtful quotes from the church fathers, This might help -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transubsta ... c_theology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eucharistic_miracle

http://www.catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP1-4.htm

And, of course, there is a whole portion of the eucharistic prayer called the Anamnesis, whose first portion is a Call to Remembrance of the initial 'sacrifice' of Christ both in the last supper and on the cross, that occurred previously in the words of institution.

Of course, another interesting aspect was touched upon by Sal. The irony of the priest emulating/channeling/becoming 'christ the priest', while he is sacrificing 'christ the sacrifice'. Ultimately this comes from the last supper, where Jesus both officiated and gave of himself.

I'm no theologian. It's all a mystery to me.
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Re: Death in Ancient Egyptian Culture [split topic]

Post by cntrational » Wed 10 Jun 2015, 02:21

Additionally, whether or not modern Christianity believes in the whole thing, historical Christianity did. Yet I doubt anybody considers them a "monolithic" culture.
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