Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

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Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 07:19

How likely is it that Macaronesia (except Canaries) and Mascarenes are settled before being discovered by Europeans? Where are the first settlers likely to come from? As for Sao Tome and Principe, Saint Helena and Galapagos, are these islands uninhabitable?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Khemehekis » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 08:35

Zythros Jubi wrote:How likely is it that Macaronesia (except Canaries) and Mascarenes are settled before being discovered by Europeans? Where are the first settlers likely to come from? As for Sao Tome and Principe, Saint Helena and Galapagos, are these islands uninhabitable?
Sao Tomé and Principe is a populated country, with Portuguese-speaking people, so I don't see how it could be called uninhabitable.
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 08:36

not unlikely, actually, it is possible that at least Cape Verde might have been visited by African peoples like the Moors and Wolofs before Europeans, other islands might have ever been visited by Africans and Native Americans as wel, despite that they might fail to colonize them or were not interested in doing so.
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 09:43

I made a SOV romlang spoken in Azores and Madeira with exotic sound changes last year, but I had no idea what its internal history was like except for it was settled between 100-300 CE. I was not sure where it was settled from, Mauretania or Iberia, and owed its peculiarities to "an unknown substrate language before Roman arrival". More serious problems are encountered concerning religion, is Roman paganism plausible to survive after Christianization of Europe? However, it certainly does not come in its original form but mixed with the belief of substrate people. An alternative was taken into consideration, that is replacing it with an Eastern Germanic lang (descendant of Visigothic).
Besides there is a planned project to make a group of Austronesian langs in Reunion, Mauritius and Seychelles, using a Brahmi script and embracing religious diversity (with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism present, mixed with animism), but unsure where to settle from (definitely not East Borneo as Malagasy).
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 11:09

sounds nice (:
Zythros Jubi wrote: is Roman paganism plausible to survive after Christianization of Europe?
if they can hide themselves well and at a place beyond the influence of any country of medieval Europe.

Also, I saw this in Wikipedia:

"Stories of islands in the Atlantic Ocean, legendary and otherwise, had been reported since classical antiquity."(taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Azores )

and

"A small number of alleged hypogea, earthen structures carved into rocks that were used for burials, have been identified on the islands of Corvo, Santa Maria and Terceira by Portuguese archaeologist Nuno Ribeiro, who speculated that they might date back 2000 years, alluding to a human presence on the island before the Portuguese. However, these kinds of structures have always been used in the Azores to store cereals, and suggestions by Ribeiro that they might be burial sites are unconfirmed. Detailed examination and dating to authenticate the validity of these speculations is lacking. It is unclear whether these structures are natural or man-made and whether they predate the 15th-century Portuguese colonization of the Azores. Solid confirmation of a pre-Portuguese human presence in the archipelago has not yet been published."(taken from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azores )
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 11:55

Perhaps a Berber substrate is the most plausible, especially Guanche? But with both Berber and East Germanic influences combined, it would resemble the Collabromlang, or, the "unknown substrate" could be something before being replaced by Berbers.

There were substrate words in Macaronian (a shortening of Macaronesian) iuc /juk/ "man, male (n)" (hypothetic substrate form *ikkwu), and möch /møx/ "cat (masculine)" (*moskju) and so on. Macaronesia is a federal republic which got its independence around 1900 from Portugal, and has preserved its language despite conquest.

Then I'd like to consider starting a Sunda-Sulawesi lang in Mauritius, Reunion & Seychelles, probably an isolate/independent branch within Sunda-Sulawesi.
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 12:06

nice ideas (: maybe you can also consider Carib languages or other languages from America?

Also, you can have more than one language there. (:
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Frislander » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 12:11

Zythros Jubi wrote:Besides there is a planned project to make a group of Austronesian langs in Reunion, Mauritius and Seychelles, using a Brahmi script and embracing religious diversity (with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism present, mixed with animism), but unsure where to settle from (definitely not East Borneo as Malagasy).
I love that idea! I say they should be from the Lesser Sundas (occasional polypersonalism plus incipient verb serialisation? Yes please!). Then they could ride the south-equatorial straight over the Indian Ocean to their putative destination. If you were willing to posit more maritime Australian aboriginals, then you could get some of them travelling over there instead, in a different alt-history.

Also, would Formosans riding the northern Pacific currents to California be realisable?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 12:13

Frislander wrote:
Also, would Formosans riding the northern Pacific currents to California be realisable?
maybe, especially if they had invented ship.

Also, maybe we can also make an austronesian Ryukyuan and an austronesian Kamchatkan language?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 12:40

Well actually there's already a Semitic conlang called Austronesian-Hebrew, and a romlang spoken in Canaries, Fortunatian/Uchunata. Besides, Insular Indo-Aryan dialects can also appear in Mascarenes (or be a major source of loanwords).

As for prehistoric trans-Pacific contact (c.f. sweet potato), it's more plausible to have Austronesian langs in mainland Chile and vice cersa, i.e. Chango/Diaguita/Mapuche even Kawesqar in Polynesia, and Chimuan in Galapagos.
Fortunatian (Rymba Uchunata or just Uchunata) is a Romance language, with Etruscan and Guanche substrates, spoken in the Fortunate Islands (our world's Canary Islands) in the Fortunate Islands Universe. This is a description of Classical Fortunatian (fl. 12c ACE).
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 15:03

nice suggestions (:
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by qwed117 » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 16:15

It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 16:20

qwed117 wrote:It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar predates the Bantu expansion to Mozambique?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by qwed117 » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 16:22

k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar predates the Bantu expansion to Mozambique?
Postdates. The Austronesian colonization is ~500 AD, Bantu Expansion in Mozambique first occurs during 1000~500 BC, and then a secondary expansion occurs ~1000 AD
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 16:24

qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar predates the Bantu expansion to Mozambique?
Postdates. The Austronesian colonization is ~500 AD, Bantu Expansion in Mozambique first occurs during 1000~500 BC, and then a secondary expansion occurs ~1000 AD
ok (:

Bantu-speaking peoples failed to colonize Madagascar?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by qwed117 » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 17:03

k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar predates the Bantu expansion to Mozambique?
Postdates. The Austronesian colonization is ~500 AD, Bantu Expansion in Mozambique first occurs during 1000~500 BC, and then a secondary expansion occurs ~1000 AD
ok (:

Bantu-speaking peoples failed to colonize Madagascar?
Yeah.
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by k1234567890y » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 17:05

qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:
qwed117 wrote:It isn't likely, but it isn't impossible. Think of it this way, a few Barito/Dusun traders a couple hundred years ago, likely set off on the longest unaided-nonstop voyage at that time, travelling from Sumatra, all the way to Madagascar, being the first humans to set foot on Madagascar since the Bantu expansion changed Africa. All you need is a lot of luck.
the Austronesian colonization of Madagascar predates the Bantu expansion to Mozambique?
Postdates. The Austronesian colonization is ~500 AD, Bantu Expansion in Mozambique first occurs during 1000~500 BC, and then a secondary expansion occurs ~1000 AD
ok (:

Bantu-speaking peoples failed to colonize Madagascar?
Yeah.
sue to the lack of proper technology and/or proper crops?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 17:53

How about an expansion after introduction of Buddhism/Hinduism to western Sumatra? What period is appropriate, for example Srivijaya Empire?
The earliest unambiguous evidence of human presence in Madagascar was found at Andavakoera and dates to 490.[3] There is some evidence for earlier human presence, but it is ambiguous or not widely studied yet. Archaeological finds such as cut marks on bones found in the northwest and stone tools in the northeast indicate that Madagascar was visited by foragers around 2000 BCE.[4][5] There is potential evidence in the form of a cutmarked subfossil lemur bone from a palaeontological site, Taolambiby, in the southwest. One date was obtained, calibrated 530 to 300 BCE (Godfrey & Jungers 2003). The cutmarking looks plausible, but there is a potential problem of old carbon from the limestone landscape compromising the date, and there are no associated artifacts or archaeological sites in the vicinity. Nearly contemporaneous potential evidence comes from Cannabis or Humulus pollen which occurs in a pollen column from the central highlands at an interpolated date of c. 2200 Before Present (BP).[6] There is some suspicion that cannabis may have reached Africa 3000 years ago.

There is no archaeological evidence for human occupation in the highlands until around 1200.
The written history of Madagascar begins in the 7th century when Omanis and Shirazi Persians established trading posts along the northwest coast and introduced Islam, the Arabic script (used to transcribe the Malagasy language in a form of writing known as the sorabe alphabet), Arab astrology and other cultural elements.[33] During this early period, Madagascar served as an important transoceanic trading port for the East African coast that gave Africa a trade route to the Silk Road and served simultaneously as a port for incoming ships. There is evidence that Bantu or Swahili sailors or traders may have begun sailing to the western shores of Madagascar as early as around the 6th and 7th century.[34]

Beginning in the 10th or 11th century, Arabic and Zanzibari slavers worked their way down the Swahili coast in their dhows and established settlements on the west coast of Madagascar. Notably they included the Zafiraminia, traditional ancestors of the Antemoro, Antanosy and other east coast ethnicities. The last wave of Arab immigrants, the Antalaotra, immigrated from Swahili colonies. They settled the northwest of the island (the Mahajanga area) and introduced, for the first time, Islam to Madagascar.
There is archaeological evidence that Bantu peoples, agro-pastoralists from East Africa, may have begun migrating to the island as early as the 6th and 7th century.[34] Other historical and archaeological records suggest that some of the Bantus were descendants of Swahili sailors and merchants who used dhows to traverse the seas to the western shores of Madagascar.[44] Finally some sources theorize that during the Middle Ages, Arab, Persian and Neo-Austronesian slave-traders[32] brought Bantu people to Madagascar transported by Swahili merchants to feed foreign demand for slaves.[45] Years of intermarriages created the Malagasy people, who primarily speak Malagasy, an Austronesian language with Bantu influences.[46] There are consequently many (Proto-)Swahili borrowings in the initial Proto-SEB Malagasy language.[47] This substratum is especially significantly present in the domestic and agricultural vocabulary (e.g. omby or aombe, "beef", from Swahili ng'ombe; tongolo "onion" from Swahili kitunguu; Malagasy nongo "pot" from nunggu in Swahili[11]).
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Fri 22 Jul 2016, 20:45

Frislander wrote:
Zythros Jubi wrote:Besides there is a planned project to make a group of Austronesian langs in Reunion, Mauritius and Seychelles, using a Brahmi script and embracing reli. gious diversity (with Catholicism, Islam and Hinduism present, mixed with animism), but unsure where to settle from (definitely not East Borneo as Malagasy).
I love that idea! I say they should be from the Lesser Sundas (occasional polypersonalism plus incipient verb serialisation? Yes please!). Then they could ride the south-equatorial straight over the Indian Ocean to their putative destination. If you were willing to posit more maritime Australian aboriginals, then you could get some of them travelling over there instead, in a different alt-history.

Also, would Formosans riding the northern Pacific currents to California be realisable?
Well, Less Sunda is not Sunda-Sulawesi-Speaking, but instead Central-Eastern Malayo-Polynesian. Overall I'm not so familiar with Austronesian yet; but I wonder where does the focus system exist outside Formosan and Borneo-Phillipine. BTW there used to be Macassarese trepangers in Australia, but no records of pidgins/creoles seem to survive; and the Austronesians seemed to have little interest in settling in Australia (as well as southern coast of New Guinea), did they?
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Re: Settling on islands without indigenous peoples in OTL

Post by Zythros Jubi » Mon 25 Jul 2016, 04:15

BTW can Sao Tome and Principe support a Pygmy or Khoisan population?
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