(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Mon 18 Jun 2018, 21:10

gach wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 21:03
Lambuzhao wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 15:05
Shemtov wrote:
Thu 14 Jun 2018, 22:47
Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?
Unnaturalistic?

Well, it has been put forth that the proto-lang of the Ob-Ugrian languages may have used a septimal numeral system.

Q.V.
Jadranka Gvozdanovic, edit. , Number Types and Changes Worldwide
László Honty, "The numeral system of the Uralic Languages" ( pp. 244-247)

https://books.google.com/books?id=9W8R9 ... em&f=false
I like Honti's take on these suggested wilder numeral bases in language reconstructions:
László Honti wrote:The supporters of these theories generally stated their views on the numeral systems of the various linguistic states by noting paradoxically that they had paid no regard to the method of numeral formation or to the data which could be gathered from the numeral systems of present-day languages.
Such odd numeral bases could well turn up but usually their accounts are best viewed as wishful thinking or questionable analysis. The Wikipedia article lists for example the supposed base-27 in Telefol and Oksapmin wich actually are no more than body part tally systems. I don't recall ever seeing any evidence that a body part counting system would have evolved into a full blown number system with a formalised additive or multiplicative base. The base here is simply the extent of the tally system.
I was always interested in whether Telefol had anything like an answer to "what is left pinky added to right ear?" or if the system is literally only used for counting, and any addition and subtraction starts from a point that the counter has reached, e.g. they can count to "right elbow", then when they see three things leave what they've counted, they move three steps back along their body.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15

How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gach » Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:18

sangi39 wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 21:10
I was always interested in whether Telefol had anything like an answer to "what is left pinky added to right ear?" or if the system is literally only used for counting, and any addition and subtraction starts from a point that the counter has reached, e.g. they can count to "right elbow", then when they see three things leave what they've counted, they move three steps back along their body.
That would be nice to know. I doubt that there's traditionally been too much use for proper arithmetic in traditional societies. When you add up things and reach the end of your tally system it's usually more convenient anyway to switch to using a large unit, so instead of counting a mass of nuts you'll count a manageable number of nut baskets.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 00:00

Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
[p b] > [b ɓ] maybe?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:38

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 00:00
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
[p b] > [b ɓ] maybe?
I want to keep the unvoiced series, so the plain voiced series fuses with it. Though the proto-lang has unvoiced nasals, so would /m̥ p b/> /p b ɓ/> /p p˩ ɓ/ work?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:42

Shemtov wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:38
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 00:00
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
[p b] > [b ɓ] maybe?
I want to keep the unvoiced series, so the plain voiced series fuses with it. Though the proto-lang has unvoiced nasals, so would /m̥ p b/> /p b ɓ/> /p p˩ ɓ/ work?
That seems possible to me. You could consider having some nasality left over from, for example, [m̥] > [p] on an adjacent vowel if you wanted.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:59

Implosives can arise unconditionally from ejectives, according to some sources, and ejectives have a number of origins (my favourite is in Yapese, which includes changes like *CVqV > *CVʔV > CʔVV > C’VV, IIRC).
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 02:33

Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
b bb > b b_< maybe?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 04:07

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:42
Shemtov wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:38
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 00:00
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
[p b] > [b ɓ] maybe?
I want to keep the unvoiced series, so the plain voiced series fuses with it. Though the proto-lang has unvoiced nasals, so would /m̥ p b/> /p b ɓ/> /p p˩ ɓ/ work?
That seems possible to me. You could consider having some nasality left over from, for example, [m̥] > [p] on an adjacent vowel if you wanted.
Actually, would say /t d n n̥/>/t t˩ ⁿd~ɗ n/ make sense? If so, I'll do that, but if the implosive makes no sense as an allophone then the allophone will be plain [d]- I'm thinking that prenasalized stops undergo nasal dissimalation- if followed by another prenasalized stop or a nasal, it becomes a plain voiced stop.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 19 Jun 2018, 04:31

Shemtov wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 04:07
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:42
Shemtov wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 01:38
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 19 Jun 2018, 00:00
Shemtov wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:15
How can a plain voiced vs. implosive contrast develop?
[p b] > [b ɓ] maybe?
I want to keep the unvoiced series, so the plain voiced series fuses with it. Though the proto-lang has unvoiced nasals, so would /m̥ p b/> /p b ɓ/> /p p˩ ɓ/ work?
That seems possible to me. You could consider having some nasality left over from, for example, [m̥] > [p] on an adjacent vowel if you wanted.
Actually, would say /t d n n̥/>/t t˩ ⁿd~ɗ n/ make sense? If so, I'll do that, but if the implosive makes no sense as an allophone then the allophone will be plain [d]- I'm thinking that prenasalized stops undergo nasal dissimalation- if followed by another prenasalized stop or a nasal, it becomes a plain voiced stop.
Yeah, I guess that could work. Something like [n] > [ⁿd~d] > [ⁿd~ɗ].
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » Wed 20 Jun 2018, 06:35

Lambuzhao wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 15:05
Shemtov wrote:
Thu 14 Jun 2018, 22:47
Is a base-seven numerical system unnauturalistic? If so, what can I do to it?

So at the very least there's that, though The Font of All Knowledge proffers a Senary system for Proto-Uralic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

[;)]
At any rate, Conlang Critic is gaga for Seximal/Senary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qID2B4MK7Y0
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 20 Jun 2018, 08:50

gach wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 22:18
sangi39 wrote:
Mon 18 Jun 2018, 21:10
I was always interested in whether Telefol had anything like an answer to "what is left pinky added to right ear?" or if the system is literally only used for counting, and any addition and subtraction starts from a point that the counter has reached, e.g. they can count to "right elbow", then when they see three things leave what they've counted, they move three steps back along their body.
That would be nice to know. I doubt that there's traditionally been too much use for proper arithmetic in traditional societies. When you add up things and reach the end of your tally system it's usually more convenient anyway to switch to using a large unit, so instead of counting a mass of nuts you'll count a manageable number of nut baskets.
Just to crush some myths. Some of the 'traditional' societies were pretty much obsessed with counting (I think there are some books on Kapauku counting). Don't know for any exclusively body part based system though.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Tue 26 Jun 2018, 03:28

Hitting a wall in my romlang, I'm working on and off of my a posteriori Greenlandic Norse language. I'm undecided whether I want the language to be a direct descendant of Old Norse, as I have now, or instead make it a true creole. If I did, it would become a "fort" creole, with Kalaallisut Greenlandic being the dominant language (and therefore the lexifier) while Norse is the disadvantaged socioeconomic group (indeed, in my alt-history the Norse are forced to adopt the ways of the Inuit in order to survive, something they did not do in OTL.) Also, see this thread.

My question is whether it would be too strange for Old Norse to be the primary lexifier instead of Kalaallisut, despite the disadvantaged position they are in. Reason being I am much more familiar with the lexicon of the former, and indeed I'd imagine the people who may be interested in my project be as well (like all the Swedes and Danes on this board.) Of course, the language would likely have a large Kalaallisut vocabulary as well, but I imagine it to be something like 65%/35% respectively.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 04:40

I don't think it would be weird, though perhaps the Inuit words would be more prestige.

What are some ways for a language to develop lateral vowels?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 15:44

Ahzoh wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 04:40
I don't think it would be weird, though perhaps the Inuit words would be more prestige.

What are some ways for a language to develop lateral vowels?
From what I can tell, either they can't or haven't developed in any natlang, or I've misunderstood the term. I had to google it, but I can only find it in two contexts, 1) as a synonym for "front vowels" used predominantly amongst singing and vocal coaches, and 2) in the term "pre-lateral vowels", which refers simply to vowels before a lateral consonant.

How might you be defining the term, and have you any natlang examples?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 15:59

sangi39 wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 15:44
Ahzoh wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 04:40
What are some ways for a language to develop lateral vowels?
From what I can tell, either they can't or haven't developed in any natlang, or I've misunderstood the term. I had to google it, but I can only find it in two contexts, 1) as a synonym for "front vowels" used predominantly amongst singing and vocal coaches, and 2) in the term "pre-lateral vowels", which refers simply to vowels before a lateral consonant.

How might you be defining the term, and have you any natlang examples?
They're unattested and they're basically l-coloured vowels similar to r-coloured vowels or perhaps they are fricative vowels like the Chinese ones but with laterality.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 16:40

Ahzoh wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 15:59
sangi39 wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 15:44
Ahzoh wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 04:40
What are some ways for a language to develop lateral vowels?
From what I can tell, either they can't or haven't developed in any natlang, or I've misunderstood the term. I had to google it, but I can only find it in two contexts, 1) as a synonym for "front vowels" used predominantly amongst singing and vocal coaches, and 2) in the term "pre-lateral vowels", which refers simply to vowels before a lateral consonant.

How might you be defining the term, and have you any natlang examples?
They're unattested and they're basically l-coloured vowels similar to r-coloured vowels or perhaps they are fricative vowels like the Chinese ones but with laterality.
I'd say, then, that the simplest origin might be vowels becoming lateral before a syllable-final lateral consonant, in a similar way to the origin of rhotic vowels in various English dialects and some dialects of Brazilian Portuguese. I'm not sure how similar vowels developed in languages like Yurok, Badaga, or Luobohe Miao, but I'd imagine that if you could find out what conditions led to them having rhotic vowels, you could reasonably come up with plausible origins for lateral vowels.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 27 Jun 2018, 18:40

Vowels are usually (or merely frequently?) defined as “central” (i.e. not lateral) “oral” (i.e. not entirely nasal) “resonants” (i.e. not obstruents, not occlusive, not fricatives nor even approximants).
That would make “lateral vowel” a contradiction in terms.
Which (apparently) doesn’t mean you can’t have such a thing if you’re sure you need it; UPSID describes one language as having a fricative vowel, even!

Very close (high), or very rounded, or retroflexed, vowels, do occur, and are often hard to distinguish from approximants. And also from semivowels. There are approximants that aren’t semivowels; there are also semivowels that are neither close nor rounded nor retroflexed. (I don’t know whether or not they occur together in one and the same language!)

Many languages have many syllables without vowels. By most* analyses these syllables have a consonant for a nucleus. That syllabic consonant is usually a sonorant. (A liquid or glide or nasal. Also, a vowel or a semivowel, but then the syllable wouldn’t be vowel-less.).

Maybe your language has so many syllables with laterals for nuclei that it makes sense to call them lateral vowels.
Especially if there are two or more lateral phonemes that frequently get used as syllable nuclei;
or, often those syllables bear stress;
or, some of those syllables contain three or more consonants.

* (For a few languages, a few linguisticians think some of these syllables have no nucleus.)

As for how they might arise; I’d guess the same way consonantal syllables arise, or analogously or similarly.

HTH?
Edit: Oh, and [+1] to what sangi39 said about “rhotic vowels”.
To be terminologically purist, all rhotics are liquid consonants; the “correct” term is probably “retroflexed vowels”, or maybe “r-colored vowels”. But why pick a nit?
Edit: And, oh hell, if “they’ll” let some Chinese language have “fricative vowels”, it looks to me like all definitional rigor is out the window. So you might as well just say “because I say so”, and not care how they could develop, or just make up some “origin story” for such phonemes.
Last edited by eldin raigmore on Thu 28 Jun 2018, 04:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » Thu 28 Jun 2018, 04:20

Ahzoh wrote:
Wed 27 Jun 2018, 04:40
I don't think it would be weird, though perhaps the Inuit words would be more prestige.
I've considered this, but I am still skeptical. What ends up happening in the alt-history, is that the Norse end up abandoning their towns to live with the Kalaallisut, leading to a creole scenario. If anything, the Norse would be forced to adopt the tongue of the Kalaallisut, but I do not know.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » Fri 29 Jun 2018, 19:21

S'òlpha grueda ai une najo bedize è une tso s'ètienar arda ts'Azubriòtar faredane biòt upa ienja.

That's not a question, obviously, nor really anything I plan on working on in the near future - just a bit of whimsy that occured to me.

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