Yay or Nay?

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MONOBA
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Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Mon 07 Nov 2011, 22:53

I thought that we should have a thread where we can submit ideas for our respective conlangs which we are not sure about, for others to judge or give their opinion on.


==


My first issue is whether I should introduce a new system of so called null-object descriptives. These are 9 suffixes added to verb stems to give further information about the object of a verb (the pronoun form has no surface form, which is why it is called null-object descriptives). Additionally, the suffixes can be used on the copula to further describe there-existential phrases/verbs. The suffixes describe form or shape of the object or copula-argument.

For example, the suffix -aht- refers to large and formless, scattered, enclosed, contained, dead or bound/wrapped objects. Example;

kiggahtaįa on, hokatatievlia de suvo
[ˈcʰik:ahtɑjãɔ̃ hɔkɑtɑˈtiel:ia de ˈsuvɔ]
Ø-ki<gg>-aht-a-įa-Ø on hoka-ta-Ø-tievl-i-ade suvo-Ø
tr-pick.up.past-ahta-ass.concl.tr-3p.pat.pl-3p.act.ag.sg on down-3p.act.unag.sg-tr-miss-past-ass.cocnl.tr de berry-dat

‘X dropped the berries down and picked them up (from being scattered/into a container/gathered together)’

įasuma kedahta kepsi-ho gaito
[ˈjɑsuma ˈcʰedahta ˈcʰɛp:sihɔ ˈgɑido]
įasuma-Ø ked-aht-a kepsi-Ø–ho g-a-ito-Ø
tanned.skin-act carry-aht-tr mushroom-dat-3p.ani.poss cop.past-ass-iness.rel-3p.act.ag.sg

‘the skin in which X carried mushrooms (as a bag)’

nega on elepri kymivma, nubmahtaįa įu
[ˈnegãɔ̃ ˈelɛpχi ˈcʰymim:a ˈnʊʔpmahtɑjaju]
Ø-n<eg>-a-Ø on eleb-ri kymin-ma, Ø-nu<bm>-aht-a-įa-Ø įu
tr-see.past-ass.concl.tr-3p.act.ag on flower-gen pretty-gen, tr-pick.past-aht-ass.concl.tr-3p.pat.pl-3p.act.ag.sg įu

‘X saw pretty flowers and picked them (into a bouqet)’


I like that I've kept these to a very low number (9) and how it adds info about the object, but I'm not sure whether or not it's worth having this extra thing in Siųa.
What do you think?
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Visinoid
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Visinoid » Mon 07 Nov 2011, 23:04

The idea's original and makes your conlang more concise for that type of information. :3
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » Mon 07 Nov 2011, 23:30

Visinoid wrote:The idea's original and makes your conlang more concise for that type of information. :3
I also vote "Aye".
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Kaidonni » Tue 08 Nov 2011, 15:02

Coming up with a phonology for that language that creatures without Human-like mouths could pronounce. Here's what I have...

/n̪ n ɲ/
/t̪ d̪ t d k q/
/s z ʒ ç ʝ h/
/l/
/ʑ/
/dʑ/

My main question is with /ʑ/ and /dʑ/ - does it make more sense to have those since I have /ʒ/? I figure that they are along similar points of articulation. I just don't think about affricates or co-articulated consonants much, I focus on the pulmonic consonants...

I'm also not sure about /t̪/ or /d̪/ - would it be strange to leave them out, since as I have /n̪/?

Yay or nay on any of these things?

I'd also vote aye on Monoba's idea. Nicely concise, and also adds flavour (especially with me being a native English speaker).
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Tue 08 Nov 2011, 16:05

/n̪ n ɲ/
/t̪ d̪ t d k q/
/s z ʒ ç ʝ h/
/l/
/ʑ/
/dʑ/

My main question is with /ʑ/ and /dʑ/ - does it make more sense to have those since I have /ʒ/? I figure that they are along similar points of articulation. I just don't think about affricates or co-articulated consonants much, I focus on the pulmonic consonants...
That's a hard question.
You have some palatal consonant, so /ʑ dʑ/ wouldn't be strange. You have /ʒ/ (with no other postalv consonant) what makes /ʒ ʑ ʝ/ too much for such a small phonemy.
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Re: Yay or Nay? -- sounds

Post by Rainchild » Tue 08 Nov 2011, 20:20

What sound inventory could be pronounced by aliens without human mouths?

I think that the answer to this question is going to depend on what kinds of speech production organs the aliens do have.

An alien vocal tract might include nostrils that could be opened and closed to make plosives and fricatives; teeth-like projections on the tongue and tough ridges on the surrounding cavity that could facilitate non-human taps and clicks; the use of more than one valve in the vocal tract to produce staggered or simultaneous glottal noises....I'm sure that an anatomist with a science-fiction writer's imagination could come up with a longer list.

It's important to remember that aliens might not use their mouths for speech. The airway and the digestive tract might not intersect in an alien species. What is more, strictly speaking, humans don't have any speech organs. Everything we use in order to produce speech has some other, more important function, such as eating or protecting the airway. Our vocal tract is *adapted* for speech, but an alien's body might have some other body parts adapted for communication.

Since you're talking about making a human sound inventory that aliens without human mouths could produce, I assume that
you're ruling out the idea that the alien speech production organs might be like a parrot's, which can imitate all kinds of human speech, or even better, like the membrane on a loudspeaker, which might produce almost any sound at all.

In short, I think you should decide what kind of speech production organs your aliens have before you come up with your inventory.

Jim G.
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Re: Yay or Nay? -- sounds

Post by Kaidonni » Tue 08 Nov 2011, 20:29

Rainchild wrote:What sound inventory could be pronounced by aliens without human mouths?

I think that the answer to this question is going to depend on what kinds of speech production organs the aliens do have.

An alien vocal tract might include nostrils that could be opened and closed to make plosives and fricatives; teeth-like projections on the tongue and tough ridges on the surrounding cavity that could facilitate non-human taps and clicks; the use of more than one valve in the vocal tract to produce staggered or simultaneous glottal noises....I'm sure that an anatomist with a science-fiction writer's imagination could come up with a longer list.

It's important to remember that aliens might not use their mouths for speech. The airway and the digestive tract might not intersect in an alien species. What is more, strictly speaking, humans don't have any speech organs. Everything we use in order to produce speech has some other, more important function, such as eating or protecting the airway. Our vocal tract is *adapted* for speech, but an alien's body might have some other body parts adapted for communication.

Since you're talking about making a human sound inventory that aliens without human mouths could produce, I assume that
you're ruling out the idea that the alien speech production organs might be like a parrot's, which can imitate all kinds of human speech, or even better, like the membrane on a loudspeaker, which might produce almost any sound at all.

In short, I think you should decide what kind of speech production organs your aliens have before you come up with your inventory.

Jim G.
I'm working with the equivalent to weres (not full transformation, more humanoid...and humanoid is so ugly a word in this case, but it's probably the best way to say not Twilight or American Werewolf in London weres :P), so they can pronounce pretty similar sounds. But having muzzles does have a marked impact, especially since even with lips, they can't round them the same way, and they would be positioned differently to a Human's. I have even chucked out labio-dentals, although having the labio-dental nasal as a phoneme would be fun (no recorded language appears to have it as a phoneme, only an allophone).

Erm...maybe my post and Rainchild's could be put into the non-Human mouths thread? I don't wish to derail this one. And my other post might be best in the Q & A thread, come to think of it...
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 03:38

MONOBA wrote:I thought that we should have a thread where we can submit ideas for our respective conlangs which we are not sure about, for others to judge or give their opinion on.


==


My first issue is whether I should introduce a new system of so called null-object descriptives. These are 9 suffixes added to verb stems to give further information about the object of a verb (the pronoun form has no surface form, which is why it is called null-object descriptives). Additionally, the suffixes can be used on the copula to further describe there-existential phrases/verbs. The suffixes describe form or shape of the object or copula-argument.

For example, the suffix -aht- refers to large and formless, scattered, enclosed, contained, dead or bound/wrapped objects. Example;

kiggahtaįa on, hokatatievlia de suvo
[ˈcʰik:ahtɑjãɔ̃ hɔkɑtɑˈtiel:ia de ˈsuvɔ]
Ø-ki<gg>-aht-a-įa-Ø on hoka-ta-Ø-tievl-i-ade suvo-Ø
tr-pick.up.past-ahta-ass.concl.tr-3p.pat.pl-3p.act.ag.sg on down-3p.act.unag.sg-tr-miss-past-ass.cocnl.tr de berry-dat

‘X dropped the berries down and picked them up (from being scattered/into a container/gathered together)’

įasuma kedahta kepsi-ho gaito
[ˈjɑsuma ˈcʰedahta ˈcʰɛp:sihɔ ˈgɑido]
įasuma-Ø ked-aht-a kepsi-Ø–ho g-a-ito-Ø
tanned.skin-act carry-aht-tr mushroom-dat-3p.ani.poss cop.past-ass-iness.rel-3p.act.ag.sg

‘the skin in which X carried mushrooms (as a bag)’

nega on elepri kymivma, nubmahtaįa įu
[ˈnegãɔ̃ ˈelɛpχi ˈcʰymim:a ˈnʊʔpmahtɑjaju]
Ø-n<eg>-a-Ø on eleb-ri kymin-ma, Ø-nu<bm>-aht-a-įa-Ø įu
tr-see.past-ass.concl.tr-3p.act.ag on flower-gen pretty-gen, tr-pick.past-aht-ass.concl.tr-3p.pat.pl-3p.act.ag.sg įu

‘X saw pretty flowers and picked them (into a bouqet)’


I like that I've kept these to a very low number (9) and how it adds info about the object, but I'm not sure whether or not it's worth having this extra thing in Siųa.
What do you think?
So this is what I have so far.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7216892/kokokokokokokok.pdf
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 21:57

Word for "brush" being "hairy stick" compound (as far as a brush is a stick with something like "hard" hair sttached) - y/n?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 22:24

Milyamd wrote:Word for "brush" being "hairy stick" compound (as far as a brush is a stick with something like "hard" hair attached) - y/n?
(FTFY)
Why the heck not?
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MONOBA
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 22:27

Hard hair stash.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 22:28

MONOBA wrote:So this is what I have so far.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7216892/kokokokokokokok.pdf
I like it so far.
There's probably some minor typos or minor spelling errors.
I do wish you'd have a better title than "kokokokokokokok".
But I like the idea and the contents.
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MONOBA
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Wed 09 Nov 2011, 22:31

I don't like thinking of titles for PDFs so I just name them the most obvious thing to be able to see them in the sea of documents on my desktop.

All the text is just preliminary. I'll go over it tonight and fix it and make it fit with the rest of the document. I'm starting to really like the idea.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Pirka » Thu 10 Nov 2011, 05:18

Should I add 1psg and 2psg subject/patient agreement prefixes to Kaynur Pitak in some transitive and all stative verbs?

Tw-ankata.
2PSG-kind (could also be realized as 2PSG.POSS-kind)
You are kind.

...as opposed to:

(Mari) ankata.
2PSG kind
=

...and

Tw-ak.
2PSG-stab
You are stabbed.

...as opposed to:

Mari-na ak-ta.
2PSG-ABS stab-PT.PRT
=
Last edited by Pirka on Thu 10 Nov 2011, 06:21, edited 3 times in total.
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MONOBA
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Thu 10 Nov 2011, 06:13

Can you explain why they are patientive?
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Pirka » Thu 10 Nov 2011, 06:20

MONOBA wrote:Can you explain why they are patientive?
Oops, my bad. Not all of the personal prefixes (when arguments of stative verbs) would be patientives. Also, I just decided that "cuki" (to see) is not a patientive transitive verb. "ak" (to stab) works better.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by MONOBA » Thu 10 Nov 2011, 07:10

I'd say yay. It's somewhat quirky if it's only for 1p and 2p, and I'm naturally biased towards it because of Siųa.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Pirka » Thu 10 Nov 2011, 08:40

MONOBA wrote:I'd say yay. It's somewhat quirky if it's only for 1p and 2p, and I'm naturally biased towards it because of Siųa.
The reason it'd be only for 1PSG and 2PSG is all of the other historical prefixes have since all but eroded away since classical Kaynur Pitak. Thank you for your opinion!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Solarius » Sun 18 Dec 2011, 14:35

Reviving the thread for a question: Should I include a retroflex stop in my new language?
Check out Ussaria!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by thetha » Sun 18 Dec 2011, 18:21

How many other stops are there? If only a few, then Yay.
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