Omzinian Scrap thread

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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread

Post by opipik » Wed 27 Apr 2016, 18:51

Suggestions

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ṃ, ṇ, ŋ̇
ṛ, ṛ̂ 
ṿ, ḷ, ʝ 

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i ɨ u <i ü u>
e ə   <e ö>
a   ɒ <a o>
Vowels can be short, long and overlong.
Short vowels are written <a>, long <á>, and overlong <aa>. 
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Omzinesý
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 28 Apr 2016, 14:27

opipik wrote:Suggestions

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ṃ, ṇ, ŋ̇
ṛ, ṛ̂ 
ṿ, ḷ, ʝ 
That's worth considering.
opipik wrote:

Code: Select all

i ɨ u <i ü u>
e ə   <e ö>
a   ɒ <a o>
Vowels can be short, long and overlong.
Short vowels are written <a>, long <á>, and overlong <aa>. 
But I still kind of like front rounded vowels of European Uralic languages.

Short
y, i, u
ø, e, o
ɑ

Long and over long
y:, i:, u:
ø:, e:, o:
æ:, ɒ

Short /ɑ/ is "split" to æ: and ɒ when long.

This is however too boring. Too Finnish.
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Mon 02 May 2016, 18:55

Omzinesý wrote:A new project!

Consonant inventory
p <p/b>, t <t/d> t͡s <c>, t͡ʃ~t͡ʂ <č>, t͡ɕ <ć>, k <k/g>
s <s/z>, ʃ~ʂ <š/ž>, ɕ <ś/ź>
m <m>, n <n>, ŋ <ŋ>
r <r>, ʀ <r̂>
ʋ <v>, l <l>, j <j>

Phonemes have three lengths: short, long, ang over long. The lengths are of course relative. That resembles Estonian. Affricates do not have short variants.
Short consonants are written:
b, d, g
z, ž, ź
m, n, ŋ
r, r̂
v, l, j

Long obstruents are written:
p, t, c, č, ć, k
s, š, ś
I don't know yet how to write the long sonorants. Ideas?


Over long consonants are written:
pp, tt, cc, čč, čč, kk
ss, šš, śś
rr, r̂r̂
vv, ll, jj
I think there are actually quite few phonological contexts where all the consonant lengths can appear.
The extreme cases of an over-long consonant following an over-long vowel and a short consonant following a short vowel do not appear.

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x    V:C   V::C
VC:  V:C:  V::C:
VC:: V:C:: x
So I can mark:

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x    án   aan
an   ánn  aann
ann  án.n x
The only environment that really has ambiguity is long vowel followed by long or over-long consonant. I think some extra mark, like n.n works when needed.

Diphthongs do not appear, but consonant clusters are common. So the long or over-long consonant cluster can also concist of two consonants of different qualities.
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread

Post by opipik » Mon 02 May 2016, 19:07

Code: Select all

i   ʉ u <i ü u>
e ø ə o <e ö ə o>
œ   ʌ   <ø ä>
    ɑ   <a>
<a á áh>

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i u <i u>
  ʊ <ü>
e o <ë ö>
ɛ ɔ <e o>
a   <a>
<ạ a á> 

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i u ũ <i u ü>
e ẽ o õ <e ë o ö>
a ɑ ɑ̃ <æ a ä> 
<a á áá>
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 04 May 2016, 20:44

I might have a high-low vowel harmony.

Words with high vowels have:
Short:
y, i, u
ɤ
Semi/Over-long:
y:, i:, u:
(e:)*, ɤ:, (o:)*

Words with low vowels have:
Sort:
ø, e, o
ɑ
Semi/Over-long:
ø:, e:, o:
æ:, ɒ:

*e: and o: marginally appear as high vowels in some endings where they correspond to æ:, ɒ:.

There could also be marginal front/back and un/rounded vowel harmonies but they to some affixes. High/low harmony is quite overwhelming.

I'm still not sure if I like the system, but it's the one I like the most ATM.
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Mon 09 May 2016, 20:52

Would it be unnatural ti have 7 short vowels:
y i u
ø e o
ä
but 9 semi/over-long vowels:
y i u
ø e ɤ o
æ ɒ

?
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread

Post by WeepingElf » Mon 09 May 2016, 20:55

No, there are languages with more long than short vowels. Sanskrit, for instance, has /a i u a: e: i: o: u: ai au/ (and syllabic /r/).
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread

Post by opipik » Mon 09 May 2016, 21:05

Code: Select all

i ɨ u <i ü u>
e o <e o>
iː ɨː uː <í ű ú>
eː ɘː oː <é ö ó>
aː <a>
iːː ɨːː uːː <íí űű úú>
eːː ɘːː oːː <éé ő óó>
aːː ɒːː <á ḁ́>

Code: Select all

i ɨ u <i ü u>
ɜ <ö>
iː ɨː uː <í ű ú>
eː ɘː oː <é ő ó>
ɑː <a>
iːː uːː <íí úú>
ɑːː <á>
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread

Post by GrandPiano » Tue 10 May 2016, 03:52

WeepingElf wrote:No, there are languages with more long than short vowels. Sanskrit, for instance, has /a i u a: e: i: o: u: ai au/ (and syllabic /r/).
Also Middle English, if you don't count diphthongs (which IIRC didn't distinguish length): /a e i o u (ə) aː ɛː ɔː eː oː iː uː/
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 02 Jul 2016, 09:55

I read about Lithuanian and learnt that it has a pitch accent (rising or falling)on stressed long vowels or diphthongs.

Decided to implement a similar accent on my lang too. So stressed long and over-long vowels now have either rising or falling tone.

Shirt vowel: a
Long vowel rising: á
Long vowel falling: à
Over-long vowel rising: aá
Over-long vowel falling: àa

The same with dotted vowels:
Short vowel: ö
Long vowel rising: ő
Long vowel falling: õ
Over-long vowel rising: öő
Over-long vowel falling: õö
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Mon 04 Jul 2016, 11:25

So to summarize my latest Project.

Vowels
The lang has a3 vowels:
+high -ATR y i u <ü i u>
+hight + ATR ʏ ɪ ʊ <ụ̈ ị ụ>
-hight -ATR ø e ɤ o <ö e a o>
-high +ATR æ ɒ ɒ <ọ̈ ẹ ạ ọ>

They have three lenghts: short, long, and over-long. Over-long vowel appear only in stressed, first syllables and have a pitch accent, either rising or falling.
Short <a>
Long <á>
Over-long falling <áa>, over-long rising <aá>

The lang has 10 diphthongs:
-ATR ei, ey, øi, øy, ɤu, ou
+ATR æʏ, æɪ, ɑʊ, ɒʊ

Diphthongs are always either long or over-long.
Long <ei>
Over-long falling <éi>, Over-long rising <eí>

The lang has also sc. half-diphthongs, concisting of a vowel + a sonorant
V + /r/ or /ʀ/
V + /n/
V + /l/
V + /h/

Half-diphthongs are long or over-long too.
Long <ar>
Over-long falling <ár>, over-long rising <aŕ>

Vowel letters with two dots take two acutes when pitched or long <ő>.

Half-diphthongs ending with /h/ cannot, however, have the rising putch.

Consonants
Plosives: p t k <p t k>
Nasals: m n ŋ <m n ŋ>
Affricates: t͡s t͡ʃ t͡ɕ <c č ć>
Fricatives: s ʃ ɕ h <s š ś>
Trills: r ʀ <r x>
Appriximants: ʋ l j h* <v l j h>

*When it comes to phonology, /h/ seems to work like a sonorant.

Lengths of consonants
All consonants can appear short, long, and over-long.
Short <t>, long <tt>, over-long <t.t>

Allowed consonant clusters
Two obstruents
Two nasals

Consonant clusters are always long <ts> or over-long <t.s>
Other consonants cannot form clusters.
Only clusters concisting of obstruents can follow a half-diphthong

Over-long consonant( cluster)s must appear on the syllabic boundary. Long and short consonants can be followed By a sonorant in the following syllable. /aptma/ is an allowed word, /pt/ being a long consonant cluster.

Phonotactic constraints of length
A short consonant cannot follow a short vowel.
A over-long consonant cannot follow a over-long vowel.
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 30 Jul 2016, 19:43

It seems I'll never get a good phoneme inventory for that lang. My latest attempt is basic 5 with rounding distinction of every phoneme.
i y ɯ u <i ü ï u>
e ø ɘ o <e ö ë o>
ä ɶ (both low phonemes are central) <a œ >

All of them have two/three lengths depending on the analyses above.

New vowel harmonies:
1 back/front harmony
- Covers suffixes with high and mid vowels.
- All of them have a back/front pair with the same value of rounding
- Progressive
- No exceptions

2 height harmony
- Covers suffixes with underlying high vowels
- Only some suffixes are concerned
- high vowels become mid if a low vowel precedes
- Progressive
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project X

Post by Omzinesý » Sat 30 Jul 2016, 20:11

The case system

There are 22 cases. Two of them are purely syntactic: the nominative and the oblique. The other cases belong to paradigms: from - at - through - to

State: excessive - essive1 - essive2 - translative
Possession: addative(?) - genitive1 - genitive2 - dative
Inside: elative - inessive1 - inessive2 - illative
Surface: delative - superessive1 - seperessive2 - sublative
Near: ablative - adessive1 - adessive2 - allative

Agentivity is marked by a clitic that can be added to any NP.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XI

Post by Omzinesý » Sun 07 May 2017, 14:54

A new project
(Actually I'm recycling my old ideas.)

p t k q
m n
s ʃ
r ʀ
l j

i:, i, u:, u <ii, i, uu, u>
e:, o: <ee, oo>
a:, a <aa, a>

The short /a/ is pronounced [ə] in nonstressed open syllables, i.e. word-finally, and written <e>.

Nouns

consonantal declension
NOM - ~ -e
OBL -u
GEN -i

consonantal declension Nouns ending in s
NOM -s
OBL -š
GEN -š

'consonantal' declension (i~j)
NOM -i
OBL -ju
GEN -je

Vocalic declension (a)
NOM -aa
OBL -aa
GEN -aaj

Vocalic declension (i)
NOM -ii
OBL -ee
GEN -eej

Vocalic declension (u)
NOM -uu
OBL -oo
GEN -ooj


Copula
Pronouns are used as copulae, but they have tense inflection.
sg1 present
NOM šuu
OBL šoo
GEN šooj

sg1 past
NOM ees
ACC eeš
GEN eeš

sg1 future
NOM oos
ACC ooš
GEN ooš


sg3 present
NOM ak
ACC aku
GEN aki

sg3 future
NOM pol
ACC polu
GEN poli

sg3 past
NOM neš
ACC nešu
GEN neši

šuu patoom 'I am happy.'
ees patoom 'I was happy.'
oos patoom 'I will be happy.'

Tom, ak patoom. 'Tom is happy.'
Tom, neš patoom. 'Tom is happy.'
Tom, pol patoom. 'Tom is happy.'

Real verbs have only one tense, but tenses of the imperfective aspect can be formed by participles ~ converbs and copulae.

Tom ak-jureel Lisu. 'Tom has loved Lisa'.
Tom neš-jurum Lisu. 'Tom was loving Lisa.'

Jureel is the past participle and jurum the present participle of jura 'to love'.
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:35, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XI

Post by Omzinesý » Sun 07 May 2017, 17:20

Historical endings are:
NOM -
OBL -o
GEN -u
but when a consonant elides, the endings change.

Below there are developments of all words ending in Vk.
k -> aɣ -> a:
ako -> aɣo ->aɣə -> a:ə -> a:
ak -> aɣi -> a:i -> a:j

ok -> oɣ -> ou̯ -> ou -> u:
oko -> oɣo -> ou̯o -> oo -> o:
oki -> oɣi -> ou̯i -> u:i -> u:j

ek -> eɣ -> ei̯ -> i:
eko -> eɣo -> e:o -> e:ə -> e:
eki -> eɣi* -> e:i -> e:j

ik -> iɣ -> i:
iko -> iɣo ->iɣə -> i:ə -> e:ə -> e:
iki -> iɣi -> i:i -> e:j

* This should actually yeald /i:j/ but it dissimilates to /e:j/
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XI

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 10 May 2017, 19:28

Omzinesý wrote:A new project
(Actually I'm recycling my old ideas.)

p t k q
m n
s ʃ
r ʀ
l j
I'll add palatalized dental pairs for /t/ /n/ /l/ /s/ /r/ and / ʃ/. All consonants are palatalized before /i/, /i:/ and /e:/ and after /i/. Those consonants can also be palatalized before /a/, /a:/, /u/, /u:/, and /u:/.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XI

Post by Omzinesý » Thu 11 May 2017, 11:40

Omzinesý wrote: Nouns

consonantal declension
NOM - ~ -e
OBL -u
GEN -i

consonantal declension Nouns ending in s
NOM -s
OBL -š
GEN -š

'consonantal' declension (i~j)
NOM -i
OBL -ju
GEN -je

Vocalic declension (a)
NOM -aa
OBL -aa
GEN -aaj

Vocalic declension (i)
NOM -ii
OBL -ee
GEN -eej

Vocalic declension (u)
NOM -uu
OBL -oo
GEN
Rivising the declensions

1st declension differentiates all cases. The others have synchretic obliques and genitives.

1.
NOM -a ~ zero
OBL -u
GEN -i

'House'
Maar
Maaru
Maari

'Sand'
Tunka
Tunku
Tunki

'Shirt'
Piraa
Pirau
Pirai

2.
NOM -i
OBL -ja
GEN -ja

'Cottage'
Maari
Maaria
Maaria

3.
NOM -s
OBL -š
GEN -š

'Desert'
Joos
Jooš
Jooš

4.
'Houses'
Maarii
Maaree
Maaree

5.
'Oasis'
Unuu
Unoo
Unoo
Last edited by Omzinesý on Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XII

Post by Omzinesý » Wed 16 Aug 2017, 18:21

Dwarf language (I used not to make Elfish or Dwarfish etc. fantasy langs but I can try.)

- "Ural-Altaic" style back/front vowel harmony (I just need it for omitting it in writing :)
- PIE style ablaut (long, short, and reduced grades)
- Gutterals
- Two genders: 1. Dwarf things (mines, gold, beard etc.) 2. everything else

Not much more ATM.
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XII

Post by Nachtuil » Thu 17 Aug 2017, 17:47

Omzinesý wrote:Dwarf language (I used not to make Elfish or Dwarfish etc. fantasy langs but I can try.)

- "Ural-Altaic" style back/front vowel harmony (I just need it for omitting it in writing :)
- PIE style ablaut (long, short, and reduced grades)
- Gutterals
- Two genders: 1. Dwarf things (mines, gold, beard etc.) 2. everything else

Not much more ATM.
Ooooooooo! I love it!
I also have a dwarf language, currently on the back burner and due for heavy revision. Mine is more uncreative with Germanic phonology and case inflection.

I quite like how isolationist or introverted the gender system is. "Us things" "Outsider things"
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Re: Omzinian Scrap-thread: Project XII

Post by Omzinesý » Fri 18 Aug 2017, 10:37

Nachtuil wrote:
Omzinesý wrote:Dwarf language (I used not to make Elfish or Dwarfish etc. fantasy langs but I can try.)

- "Ural-Altaic" style back/front vowel harmony (I just need it for omitting it in writing :)
- PIE style ablaut (long, short, and reduced grades)
- Gutterals
- Two genders: 1. Dwarf things (mines, gold, beard etc.) 2. everything else

Not much more ATM.
Ooooooooo! I love it!
I also have a dwarf language, currently on the back burner and due for heavy revision. Mine is more uncreative with Germanic phonology and case inflection.

I quite like how isolationist or introverted the gender system is. "Us things" "Outsider things"
Yeah, it's an interesting thought experiment how people would behave with other rational species. Would cultures be arbitrarily made more different.
Dwarfs are also very very result-oriented, so all kinds of hobbies or just spending your time is "outsider thing". They don't farm either but buy all their food from humans. so everything related to such necessary hindrances like eating is "outsider thing". So "us things" is mostly related to mining, handicraft, war, and some eccentric rituals.
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