My hatelang: Omlűt

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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 11 Jul 2016, 23:50

Creyeditor wrote: The basic word order in Omlűt is XOVS9. Yes, the weirdest word order XOVS. At least that's what I intended. It turns out, that in combination with the marked nominative alignment and subject pro-drop it actually looks quite naturalistic. Most sentences transitive now look more like OV, XOV or XV, which is appears in a lot of prodrop language. Have some examples.
Creyeditor wrote: Intransitive sentences have a XVS or VS order, which is not to bad, if you look at it from a typological perspective.
Creyeditor wrote: In transitive sentences with a full noun phrase subject, it almost feels as if one is just reintroducing the subject due to the marked nominative and the verbal agreement. Something like: "bread he-eats ... oh and he is a robot by the way." The basic orders are OVS and XOVS.
Creyeditor wrote: Now you have seen almost the whole ugliness of the Omlűt syntax. I guess my next post will either be about noun phrases or verb phrases.
I agree that it's "weird", but it looks like it works just fine, and you've explained things quite clearly and straightforwardly, so I'm afraid I don't have anything in particular to say other than that everything looks great, as usual. I look forward to hearing more about syntax.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 01:53

16. Verb phrases
Verb phrases ('broad VPs') in a broader definition include the modal particles, the verb and the object. The narrow definition (narrow VP) excludes the object and is a discontinious constituent, because the modal particles occur before the object. The modal particles express epistemic and deontic modality. An example is the particle xa used for deontic necessity and strong possibility, i.e. something like 'should', 'want' or 'need'.

Xa szokolötsrë ümëstë.
xa szokolats\iu-rë um\i-ëstë
DEO chocolate\-COM.SG.M 1.SG\-NOM.SG.M
I need chocolate!

As you can see these particles can occur without full verbs, if the predicate is nominal. Verb phrases with more than one verb occur only very rarely. Instead, an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun is often used.

I decided to draw some trees for the verb phrases in a kind of made-up generative fashion (mostly based on minimalism).
Spoiler:
Image
If you have any questions, feel free to ask.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 16 Jul 2016, 02:24

Creyeditor wrote: As you can see these particles can occur without full verbs, if the predicate is nominal. Verb phrases with more than one verb occur only very rarely. Instead, an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun is often used.
Could we perhaps see an example without a nominal predicate, one with multiple verbs, and one with an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun?
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Nachtuil » Tue 09 Aug 2016, 23:43

Is this conlang still being worked on? It literally was one of the reasons I signed up to this message board! [:P]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 10 Aug 2016, 15:02

Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for. Actually here is a sentence with two verbs, one of them is a participle. <strast> 'be able' is one of the few verbs that embedds narrow verb phrases. It is also an irregular verb wrt conjugation (see above).

Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Nachtuil wrote: It literally was one of the reasons I signed up to this message board! [:P]
Wow, this is really a nice compliment. Thank you [:)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by gokupwned5 » Fri 12 Aug 2016, 15:15

You should check out '''f'f'f'f''ff'ff'f'f'f'f'f''''f1. It is a very good read.

/https://www.reddit.com/r/conlangs/comme ... h=d0be94db
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 12 Aug 2016, 21:49

Interesting, a similar approach though different in not being naturalistic at all, IIUC.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 17:13

Creyeditor wrote:Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for.
No worries, take however much time you need, of course.
Creyeditor wrote: Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Looks cool. Sorry if this is explained somewhere I'm accidentally overlooking, but what is Mamambam?
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 17:18

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Well, I am currently revising some stuff in my files and transferring it to the forum and ordering it. Right now I have a hard time coming up with some of the complex sentences shimobaatar asked for.
No worries, take however much time you need, of course.
Creyeditor wrote: Skusp am mamambam qa ströst lutënë
skusp am mamambam qa strast\_iu lut-ënë
NEG out_of mamambam 3SG out_of be_able\1SG.IPFV speak-PTCP
I cannot express it in Mamambam.
Looks cool. Sorry if this is explained somewhere I'm accidentally overlooking, but what is Mamambam?
It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 20:32

Creyeditor wrote: It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
Ahh, got it. Have you posted anything about it before?
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 20:48

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: It's another conlang in my conworld, spoken by some dryad-like, pacifistic, elvish, tree-hugging people. So basically the opposite of Bólks, where Omlűt is spoken.
Ahh, got it. Have you posted anything about it before?
I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):

Lamkram buditbam bakabibam, nutatun lu yusar!
/lamkram buditbam bakabibam, nutatun lu jusar/
[ˈlam.kram ˈbu.dit.bam ˈba.ka.bi.bam, ˈnu.ta.tun ˈlu ˈju.sar]
lam-k-r-a-m budit-b-Ø-a-m ba-kabi-b-Ø-a-m, nuta-t-Ø-u-n lu yu-s-Ø-a-r!
be-PASS-PST-REA-DUR day-INA-SG-DEF-NOM ADJ-sadness-INA-SG-DEF-NOM, carve-ACT-PRS-IMP-INGR NEG 1.-M-SG-DEF-ACC
It's been a bad day, please don't carve a picture of me (into a tree).
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 21:05

Creyeditor wrote: I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):
Well, I like the looks of the sample here. It sounds like its design goals are somewhat like the opposite of those for Omlűt, similar to how the cultures of the speakers are opposites.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 21:08

shimobaatar wrote:
Creyeditor wrote: I think I didn't. Mamambam (the conlang) is very euphonic (to me) and really a bit to regular. It is not related to Omlűt. Here is a sample sentence (modelled after a song *here*):
Well, I like the looks of the sample here. It sounds like its design goals are somewhat like the opposite of those for Omlűt, similar to how the cultures of the speakers are opposites.
True [:)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 19 Aug 2016, 21:50

shimobaatar wrote:Could we perhaps see an example without a nominal predicate [...]?
And here it is1 [:)]

Xa szokolátsraigtvirs u enilbëmë.
xa szokolats-ragt-virs u en-ilb-ëmë
DEO chocolate-bake-part INDEF.ACC VBLZ.TR-food-1SG.PFV
I really want to eat a chocolate cookie.

The deontical necessity marker here marks more of a desire than a general obligation. I still use the glossing DEO, beause it can never be used for epistemic necessity.
Here's a tree. I assumed a null pronoun as the subject, that agrees with the main verb, so basically the person features are moved from specV to V. I could have analyzed the verbal suffix as being the exponent of the subject features in specV. It would have worked equally well for this sentence, but it would require some kind of feature copying in sentences with an overt subject.
Spoiler:
Image

1 Also note that the word for 'to eat' is derived from the noun for 'food' by adding a transitive verbalizer, so literally (with English syntax): I want to food a baked chocolate part. [;)]
shimobaatar wrote:Could we perhaps see an example [...] with an embedded clause with a dummy pronoun?
One example to go [;)]
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 20 Aug 2016, 19:51

Thank you so much for taking the time to do all these! You've clearly put a lot of work in.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 05 Oct 2016, 21:21

So after looking really hard at all of my Omlueuet sentences, I noticed that there are next to no sentences of the dummy-pronoun-type. There is however another type of embedded clauses: nominalized verbs. Verbs are nominalized with the suffix -ërë. These act as noun phrases with regard to their syntactic distribution and their ability to take the indefinite article. The indefinite article now takes a somehow different meaning. It shows that the action is atelic, aimless or undefined wrt its duration. The verbs - even though nominalized - can still take modal particles and regular accusative objects like finite verbs.

Xa skradsërë u áspst trümftë.
xa skrads-ërë u asp/a-st trimf/u-të
DEO linger-NMLZ INDEF leave/-3.PL.PFV man/-NOM.PL.M
The men left to wander. or The men left because they had to wander.

Trömfën sprapërë sprumëmë.
trimf\au-ën sprap-ërë sprum-ëmë
man\-PL.M.ACC perceive-NMLZ try-1.SG.PFV
I tried to see the men.

One could say, that these clauses are embedded broad VP's or even TP's, that act as nominal phrases, because of the nominalizing morpheme, which is a nominal head.
Spoiler:
Image
I guess they could also be used recursively:

Trömfën sprapërë sprumërë áspst.
trimf\au-ën sprap-ërë sprum-ërë asp/a-st
man\-PL.M.ACC perceive-NMLZ try-NMLZ leave/-3.PL.PFV
They left to try to see the men.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 16 Nov 2016, 00:11

So, all the pictures somehow vanished, but maybe they will eventually re-appear.
17. Noun phrases
As you already saw, verb phrases have a relatively rigid order. Noun phrases on the other hand have a relatively free word order. The only restriction is that adpositions always occur in the second position of noun phrases (maybe deuteropositions?). Note that this means that they can ´be placed before or after the noun. Adjectives and determiners agree with the head noun in number, gender and case. There is an indefinite article, but no definite article.

Examples:

írdën ünkën ühën
ird\i-ën unk\i-ën u\i-ën
loudest\-FEM.SG.COM roar\-FEM.SG.COM INDEF\-\-FEM.SG.COM
with a very loud roar

"Tréndar Barda" frímpëstë ühëstë
"Tréndar#Barda" frimp\i-ëstë u\i-ëstë
conlang old\-M.SG.NOM INDEF\-M.SG.NOM
an old conlang

Szokolátsraigtvirs u
szokolats-ragt-virs u
chocolate-bake-part INDEF
a chocolate cookie

Sauczesnuz ils krüptzurd ils
sau-cze-snuz-0 ils kript-zurd-0 ils
NMLZ-ADJLZ-blizzard-ACC on footprint-ACC on
in the footprint in the snow

Friz irg munt
friz irg munt-0
two while day-ACC
for two days

Skralk i
skralk-0 i
plant-ACC in_front_of
In front of the plant

Omlűt am
Omlűt am
Omlűt out_of
in Omlűt

zhórfën grim
zhurf\au-ën grim
word\-ACC.PL.M six
six words


Skráilmët i
skralm/ia-et i
mud/-ACC.PL.F in_front_of
in front of the mud

röbsët whéndët öhët
rubs/ai-et whind/ai-et u/ai-et
place/-ACC.PL.F dry-ACC.PL.F INDEF-ACC.PL.F
dry places

If you have any questions on that feel free to ask. I am planning on drawing a tree for the Preposition Phrases and they will involve (impossible) movement. I am so excited [xD]

Default word order
Spoiler:
Image
NP internal scrambling
Spoiler:
Image
P2 order in the PP
Spoiler:
Image
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 11 Jan 2017, 19:57

Now we are done with the syntax, I think. Let's move on to the lexicon.
18. Numerals
The numeral system in Omlűt is additive. Yes additive, not addictive. It's like the numeral system in roman script, except in spoken language. Take for example the numeral 38 cúftszüstvuts . It consists of cuft three szist lit. nut, here 15 vuts lit. ball, here 20 (plus the umlauts) and 3+15+20 = 38. Most of the bases are actually calqued/loaned from different source languages with different bases in a regular system. Most of them are also inspired by real life examples. Here are all the bases with their numeral and literal meaning up to 30.

0,5 thurp cloth strip
1 gag burden
2 friz pair
3 cuft -
4 flunt reel, spool
5 mirz book
6 grim straw
10 frask fat one
12 klirt twelve
15 szist nut
16 glurn giant
20 vuts ball
24 grisk ladder
25 snaft bush, shrub
30 phisp basket

Yeah, so actually the only two numerals in this language is three and twelve. Other numerals are formed by adding up the smallest amount of 'bases' as balanced as possible, e.g. 38=15+20+3 and not 30+5+3 or 10+6+15+3+4. Also no base can occur twice.
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Iyionaku » Thu 12 Jan 2017, 17:27

Creyeditor wrote:Also no base can occur twice.
Does that mean then that Omlűt speakers' highest reachable numeral is phispsnaftgriskvutsglurnszistklirtfraskgrimmirzfluntcuftfrizgagthurp, meaning 173.5?

Regarding this numeral, I start to understand why you call this your "hatelang" [:D] (sorry)
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Re: My hatelang: Omlűt

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 12 Jan 2017, 17:47

Iyionaku wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:Also no base can occur twice.
Does that mean then that Omlűt speakers' highest reachable numeral is phispsnaftgriskvutsglurnszistklirtfraskgrimmirzfluntcuftfrizgagthurp, meaning 173.5?
I did not give you all the bases, but you are right: there is an upper bound for Omlueuet numbers. Future Umlueuet will just borrow the whole number system from somewhere elsewhere.
Iyionaku wrote:Regarding this numeral, I start to understand why you call this your "hatelang" [:D] (sorry)
I take this as a compliment [:)]
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