Con-Script Development Centre

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
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Frislander
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Frislander » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 00:43

clawgrip wrote:The majority of historical abjads just completely ignored vowels, though. So if you're developing an abjad, you might also want to consider the time period and especially the overall literacy of the population (mostly illiterate population with literate scribes I imagine will make vowel pointing largely unnecessary).
That's the pattern I see. In fact in general more obtuse writing systems seem to correlate well with having a 'scholarly caste', though that might just be an accident of history.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by jimydog000 » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 12:39

Frislander wrote:
clawgrip wrote:The majority of historical abjads just completely ignored vowels, though. So if you're developing an abjad, you might also want to consider the time period and especially the overall literacy of the population (mostly illiterate population with literate scribes I imagine will make vowel pointing largely unnecessary).
That's the pattern I see. In fact in general more obtuse writing systems seem to correlate well with having a 'scholarly caste', though that might just be an accident of history.
I think it's more to do with how the script is used to communicate not the literacy, You can see the same pattern in Latin where it went from scriptio-continua to using spaces or Greek developing diacritics for the pitch/stress. An evolution of scripts being used for communication by the people rather then a politician or scribe memorising the text beforehand and then reading the text.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 13:07

What you describe is true, but it is a consequence of literacy, not an alternative to it. If literacy is low, the use of writing will almost certainly be restricted to a certain class of scribes or other important people, who will likely use writing in limited contexts, increasing the formulaic nature of the text and reducing the need for disambiguators. As literacy increases, the situations for which people find a use for writing also increases, so the script itself may undergo changes such as the ones you mention in order to adapt.

Saying "scripts being used for communication by the people rather then a politician or scribe memorising the text beforehand and then reading the text" is tantamount to saying "when literacy increases", because the population comprises more than just politicians and scribes. You will not have a highly literate population who read and write political or religious texts, yet never apply the benefits of literacy to their day-to-day lives. The overall literacy of the population is the key element to increasing the legibility of a script.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by jimydog000 » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 13:45

Yeah that makes sense.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Taurenzine » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 17:06

Ebon wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:
Ebon wrote:I've been working on the script idea I posted in here a while back. I'm still missing five glyphs (and punctuation (and most of the actual language)), but it's coming along nicely!
Spoiler:
Image
I like where you're going with this, however I would like to see some example text... I don't really know what to expect yet. if you want, just go ahead and place some random characters together. it doesn't have to mean anything, but i'd like to see what it would look like to get a better Idea of what it would look like.
Here you go:
Spoiler:
Image
halys tɕigat hajenax se kipsare vytɕan me
psele dirmeagis tsantɕea benas vylis jani
nyrmeagane bzarten tel benyka xismajy ka
ilisma li yrigdan tsargeax mes palehidi

Since the language itself is largely nonexistant right now, this may not be 100% accurate (I'm not sure how much stuff I want to put into affixes so words may be on average shorter or longer than here, and my phonotactics might change a little) but this is what I have in mind.
I have to say that I think its pretty great! I like how you took the line over top each word like in Sanskrit, but you didn't make it necessary to make separate lines for the tops of each of the words. This could make it a lot easier for lined paper, because the line is already there, and all you have to do is branch out from it and make spaces in between the branched glyphs.
so Keep at it! I look forward to updates on this language of yours [:D]
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Ebon » Mon 28 Nov 2016, 20:15

Taurenzine wrote:
Ebon wrote: Here you go:
Spoiler:
Image
halys tɕigat hajenax se kipsare vytɕan me
psele dirmeagis tsantɕea benas vylis jani
nyrmeagane bzarten tel benyka xismajy ka
ilisma li yrigdan tsargeax mes palehidi

Since the language itself is largely nonexistant right now, this may not be 100% accurate (I'm not sure how much stuff I want to put into affixes so words may be on average shorter or longer than here, and my phonotactics might change a little) but this is what I have in mind.
I have to say that I think its pretty great! I like how you took the line over top each word like in Sanskrit, but you didn't make it necessary to make separate lines for the tops of each of the words. This could make it a lot easier for lined paper, because the line is already there, and all you have to do is branch out from it and make spaces in between the branched glyphs.
so Keep at it! I look forward to updates on this language of yours [:D]
I was considering making the top lines separate, but I think I like it better this way. I'm working on basic grammar right now, hopefully I'll be able to post a thread on it soon!

I've been mostly conlanging for a fandom project I've posted in fandom spaces, which is why I haven't been posting much here lately.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Taurenzine » Tue 29 Nov 2016, 14:12

Ebon wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:
Ebon wrote: Here you go:
Spoiler:
Image
halys tɕigat hajenax se kipsare vytɕan me
psele dirmeagis tsantɕea benas vylis jani
nyrmeagane bzarten tel benyka xismajy ka
ilisma li yrigdan tsargeax mes palehidi

Since the language itself is largely nonexistant right now, this may not be 100% accurate (I'm not sure how much stuff I want to put into affixes so words may be on average shorter or longer than here, and my phonotactics might change a little) but this is what I have in mind.
I have to say that I think its pretty great! I like how you took the line over top each word like in Sanskrit, but you didn't make it necessary to make separate lines for the tops of each of the words. This could make it a lot easier for lined paper, because the line is already there, and all you have to do is branch out from it and make spaces in between the branched glyphs.
so Keep at it! I look forward to updates on this language of yours [:D]
I was considering making the top lines separate, but I think I like it better this way. I'm working on basic grammar right now, hopefully I'll be able to post a thread on it soon!

I've been mostly conlanging for a fandom project I've posted in fandom spaces, which is why I haven't been posting much here lately.
Keep at it [:D]
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Shemtov » Wed 30 Nov 2016, 21:45

A question:
Would it be likely for a syllabary in a language with vowel harmony to develop a system where there's only one line for syllables containing vowels that interact with the harmony, but the first syllable with a front consonant is marked with a special mark and all other vowels would be read as front.
Let's say the grapheme for /nu/ is <A> and the grapheme for /ko/ is M but there are no special markers for /ny/ or /kø/, and to write /nykø/ you would put an acute accent over the <A> Like this: <ÁM>
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 30 Nov 2016, 21:52

Sounds plausible to me at least.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Thu 01 Dec 2016, 00:54

It sounds fine to me. The thing to remember about scripts is that they are not bound to the same rules of plausibility as spoken languages. If you have like 50 scribes, the head scribe can just one day decide "hey, we're going to put a dot on the first one now to show vowel harmony" and everyone will just start doing it. Or maybe they get tired of putting a dot on every single letter when it's obvious that if one is that way, they all are, so they just started abbreviating it, putting the dot on the first one. Either way, it seems fine to me.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Isfendil » Tue 06 Dec 2016, 05:04

This is a search inquiry: Are there any modified versions of the Aramaic square script or the Arabic script that include more letters for sounds? Or even vowels beyond the Masoretic vocalization?
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Shemtov » Tue 06 Dec 2016, 08:42

Isfendil wrote:This is a search inquiry: Are there any modified versions of the Aramaic square script or the Arabic script that include more letters for sounds? Or even vowels beyond the Masoretic vocalization?
Persian and Urdu have a modified kaf called gaf, that represents /g/, and a modified ba, pa, for /p/. They also have a modified jim, chim, for writing the voiceless postalveolar affricate, which is also used to write colloquial Iraqi Arabic. I think Urdu also has a modified ha, placed after stop and affricate letters to indicate aspiration/breathiness. Judeo-Arabic placed dots above Hebrew gimmel and Tsade, kaf, and tav, to write /d͡ʒ ðˤ x θ/. Ladino represented the voiceless post-alveolar affricate with a gimmel followed by a <'>, and a similiar strategy to turn beth and pe into /v f/. The palatal nasal was a trigraph. Yiddish has a barred beth to write /v/, and some used a barred pe for /f/. Alef with a patach and a kamatz are also considered seperate letters, as Yiddish has turned the Hebrew Abjad into an alphabet.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Isfendil » Tue 06 Dec 2016, 17:36

Shemtov wrote:
Isfendil wrote:This is a search inquiry: Are there any modified versions of the Aramaic square script or the Arabic script that include more letters for sounds? Or even vowels beyond the Masoretic vocalization?
Persian and Urdu have a modified kaf called gaf, that represents /g/, and a modified ba, pa, for /p/. They also have a modified jim, chim, for writing the voiceless postalveolar affricate, which is also used to write colloquial Iraqi Arabic. I think Urdu also has a modified ha, placed after stop and affricate letters to indicate aspiration/breathiness. Judeo-Arabic placed dots above Hebrew gimmel and Tsade, kaf, and tav, to write /d͡ʒ ðˤ x θ/. Ladino represented the voiceless post-alveolar affricate with a gimmel followed by a <'>, and a similiar strategy to turn beth and pe into /v f/. The palatal nasal was a trigraph. Yiddish has a barred beth to write /v/, and some used a barred pe for /f/. Alef with a patach and a kamatz are also considered seperate letters, as Yiddish has turned the Hebrew Abjad into an alphabet.
Thank you, I did not know about the Hebrew letter modifications. I will look into them.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Fri 09 Dec 2016, 13:17

Arabic has a ton of weird variant letters for the various different languages that use it. Some crazy examples include weird dot patterns, like letters with dots on both the top and the bottom (e.g. ږ‎, ڜ‎), Sindhi letters with four dots (e.g. ڦ), letters with dots arranged differently from Arabic, (e.g. ݐ‎, ݫ‎), letters with dots where you don't expect dots (e.g. ݣ) letters becoming diacritics in Urdu (e.g. ڈ‎), rings stuck to things in Pashto (e.g. ګ‎), the tilde-like thing whose name I forget being added in places it isn't usually, (e.g. ىٓ‎), hacek- or circumflex-like signs (e.g. ۉ‎, ڵ‎), hamzas everywhere (e.g. ځ‎, ﺉ‎), script variants becoming full-fledged letters (e.g. ڪ ,ے), modification of letters (e.g. ݪ ,ۍ) (also check out the h used in Urdu (the normal Arabic-style h being used for aspiration), here it is combined with ہے :ے).
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Isfendil » Fri 09 Dec 2016, 20:41

clawgrip wrote:Arabic has a ton of weird variant letters for the various different languages that use it. Some crazy examples include weird dot patterns, like letters with dots on both the top and the bottom (e.g. ږ‎, ڜ‎), Sindhi letters with four dots (e.g. ڦ), letters with dots arranged differently from Arabic, (e.g. ݐ‎, ݫ‎), letters with dots where you don't expect dots (e.g. ݣ) letters becoming diacritics in Urdu (e.g. ڈ‎), rings stuck to things in Pashto (e.g. ګ‎), the tilde-like thing whose name I forget being added in places it isn't usually, (e.g. ىٓ‎), hacek- or circumflex-like signs (e.g. ۉ‎, ڵ‎), hamzas everywhere (e.g. ځ‎, ﺉ‎), script variants becoming full-fledged letters (e.g. ڪ ,ے), modification of letters (e.g. ݪ ,ۍ) (also check out the h used in Urdu (the normal Arabic-style h being used for aspiration), here it is combined with ہے :ے).
Do any of the script modifications turn the Abjad intro a true alphabet, like with Yiddish?
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Sat 10 Dec 2016, 00:53

Yes. The Uyghur alphabet is a true alphabet, and there are probably a couple others. Xiao'erjing (Chinese written in Arabic) is actually an abugida because all vowels are always marked via diacritics (à la Thaana).
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Isfendil » Sat 10 Dec 2016, 01:33

clawgrip wrote:Yes. The Uyghur alphabet is a true alphabet, and there are probably a couple others. Xiao'erjing (Chinese written in Arabic) is actually an abugida because all vowels are always marked via diacritics (à la Thaana).
Does Xiao'erjing mark tones as well? Also thank you.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Sat 10 Dec 2016, 03:11

It does not appear to, no.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Taurenzine » Sun 11 Dec 2016, 00:03

So I have a simple (or possibly simple) question. I'm a noob here and I would like to know if there's a way you can create a font that goes top to bottom. my writing system is a top to bottom and I would really like to at least attempt to write it.... I very much doubt it however, most top to bottom writing systems are probably replaced with either a left to right or a right to left writing system.
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Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by All4Ɇn » Tue 13 Dec 2016, 00:00

I've recently finished creating my first conscript [:D]. Here's each letter's approximation in unicode, how I write each letter, and their phonological value. I'm not amazing at handwriting and hopefully it'll get better with time [:)]. Let me know what you guys think. Also sorry about picture quality. They looked a lot better viewing them on my phone

Αα- /a/
Spoiler:
Image
Бϐ- /b/
Spoiler:
Image
Гν- /g/
Spoiler:
Image
Δᵹ- /d/
Spoiler:
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Ee- /e/
Spoiler:
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Ϝϛ̇- /w/
Spoiler:
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Ζԅ- /z/
Spoiler:
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Ѳѳ- /d/ (/t/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Spoiler:
Image
Ιι̇ι- /i~j/ (ι is a special lowercase form used when representing /j/)
Spoiler:
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եцϙк- /k/ (ц is the main lowercase form, ϙ is used before o/υ/ω, к is used word finally)
Spoiler:
Image
Λλ- /l/
Spoiler:
Image
Мм- /m/
Spoiler:
Image
Nⲛ- /n/
Spoiler:
Image
Нγ- /ŋ/
Spoiler:
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Ⲝⲝ- /ks/
Spoiler:
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Oo- /o/
Spoiler:
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Πϖ- /p/
Spoiler:
Image
Ρρϱ- /r~l/ (ρ is the main lowercase form, ϱ is used word finally)
Spoiler:
Image
Ͼσς- /s/ (σ is the main lowercase form, ς is used word finally)
Spoiler:
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Շт- /t/
Spoiler:
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Уυ- /y/
Spoiler:
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Ѻѻ- /b/ (/p/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final. In certain situations the /b/ is silent)
Spoiler:
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Φф- /f/
Spoiler:
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Ϫχ- /g/ (/k/ word finally) (indicates high tone on following syllable or syllable before it if final)
Spoiler:
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Yψ- /ps/
Spoiler:
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Ϯϯ- /t͡ʃ/
Spoiler:
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Ͽͽ- /d͡ʒ/
Spoiler:
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Ϣω-/u/
Spoiler:
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Accents:
´- /˥/
`- /˩/
̑- /˥˩/
῾- /h/
ͱ- /h/ added before letter already marked with a tonal accent mark
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