Con-Script Development Centre

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
OTʜᴇB
roman
roman
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 10:59
Location: SW England

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by OTʜᴇB » Tue 13 Dec 2016, 18:13

All4Ɇn wrote:I've recently finished creating my first conscript [:D]. Here's each letter's approximation in unicode, how I write each letter, and their phonological value. I'm not amazing at handwriting and hopefully it'll get better with time [:)]. Let me know what you guys think. Also sorry about picture quality. They looked a lot better viewing them on my phone
...
...
...
Looks great, looks very Latin-y with squiggles. I think £ is a better Unicode approximation than Z for the majuscule /z/ though.
:con: : Dijo
:con: : Language 8 (Reviving Dijo)

BTW I use Arch
User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1552
Joined: Sat 01 Mar 2014, 07:19

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by All4Ɇn » Wed 14 Dec 2016, 16:49

OTʜᴇB wrote:Looks great, looks very Latin-y with squiggles. I think £ is a better Unicode approximation than Z for the majuscule /z/ though.
Thanks! Considering the handwritten form for Z in my conscript is identical to French cursive's form for Z, it seemed likely to me that Z would still be used in printing
LinguoFranco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2016, 16:49

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by LinguoFranco » Sat 24 Dec 2016, 01:16

What kind a script should I go for with a polysynthetic language? Syllaberies, abugidas, abjads, alphabet?
User avatar
OTʜᴇB
roman
roman
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 10:59
Location: SW England

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by OTʜᴇB » Sat 24 Dec 2016, 12:58

LinguoFranco wrote:What kind a script should I go for with a polysynthetic language? Syllaberies, abugidas, abjads, alphabet?
1: What's the syllable structure? 2: How long can words get?
if 1 = CV: Syllabary is probably best
if vowels are defined by external means, Abjad might be best.
if 1 = very varied and complex: Alphabet may be the only reasonable option.
but if 2 = very long: look into a logography of sorts to keep your words readable.
:con: : Dijo
:con: : Language 8 (Reviving Dijo)

BTW I use Arch
LinguoFranco
sinic
sinic
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed 20 Jul 2016, 16:49

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by LinguoFranco » Sun 25 Dec 2016, 02:36

OTʜᴇB wrote:
LinguoFranco wrote:What kind a script should I go for with a polysynthetic language? Syllaberies, abugidas, abjads, alphabet?
1: What's the syllable structure? 2: How long can words get?
if 1 = CV: Syllabary is probably best
if vowels are defined by external means, Abjad might be best.
if 1 = very varied and complex: Alphabet may be the only reasonable option.
but if 2 = very long: look into a logography of sorts to keep your words readable.
I'm still trying to figure out the syllable structure, but I have created a writing system that is a mix of an abugida and a syllabery.
User avatar
Shemtov
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2159
Joined: Mon 29 Apr 2013, 03:06

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Shemtov » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 02:57

Some ideas for the shape of Shaniija abugida consonants, read right to left, with a connecting horizantal bar underneath:
Image
And vowel diacritics:
Image
Thoughts? is this a good start?
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien
User avatar
shanoxilt
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon 30 May 2016, 05:51

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by shanoxilt » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 06:43

Tribemember Stone made a font for us!
Spoiler:
Image
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2319
Joined: Sun 24 Jun 2012, 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 11:01

I like this script, actually, but who is Tribemember Stone, and who is "us"?
User avatar
Taurenzine
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 189
Joined: Mon 03 Oct 2016, 16:29

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Taurenzine » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 17:46

clawgrip wrote:I like this script, actually, but who is Tribemember Stone, and who is "us"?
That's what I would like to know as well
User avatar
Isfendil
greek
greek
Posts: 655
Joined: Fri 19 Feb 2016, 03:47

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by Isfendil » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 19:11

Taurenzine wrote:
clawgrip wrote:I like this script, actually, but who is Tribemember Stone, and who is "us"?
That's what I would like to know as well
The Sajem Tan clan (of which Shano is a member), who develop the mythos and structure of the Sajem Tan language. That's all I know, Shano will probably turn up to tell you more.
User avatar
OTʜᴇB
roman
roman
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 10:59
Location: SW England

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by OTʜᴇB » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 19:26

New featural alphasyllabary for Orderlang. This is a screenshot from the web document I'm making for it. The accompanying text is as follows:

Orderlang uses a featural alphasyllabary. It is very angular with no curves, only horizontal, vertical, and 45 degree diagonal straight lines. There are no closed shapes and there are no forks in lines where more than 2 meet. Syllables are comprised of up to 3 parts, those being an onset section, nucleus section, and coda section. It is based around a 7x7 grid of points, on which every end of every line must lie. This creates a very regular shape to all the symbols, making it very easy to read. Every symbol is of equal width and height and would normally be written on grid-marked paper.

This script is written top to bottom, left to right - this is to benefit both left-handed people and right-handed people. The left hand won't go over recently written text, allowing ink to dry before the next column is started, preventing smudged text. The right hand won't obstruct view of the end of the column, so it is easier to tell when a new column must be started. Titles or headings are often written left to right, but the orientation of symbols does not change. It is written on special paper that can provide varying amounts of aid to writing, from very simple lined paper, to intricate handwriting paper. Some examples of paper are below.

Generally, the standard writing implement would be a tapered square-tip pen to produce lines of equal weight and sharp square corners, but most normal implements would work fine.

Image
:con: : Dijo
:con: : Language 8 (Reviving Dijo)

BTW I use Arch
User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1869
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by masako » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 19:43

OTʜᴇB wrote:New featural alphasyllabary for Orderlang.

http://i.imgur.com/vuDrzM1.png
Care to give us a sample/example?
User avatar
OTʜᴇB
roman
roman
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 10:59
Location: SW England

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by OTʜᴇB » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 19:54

masako wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:New featural alphasyllabary for Orderlang.

http://i.imgur.com/vuDrzM1.png
Care to give us a sample/example?
This is the only example I have (no vocab or rigid grammar yet). It's how "Orderlang" would be written in the language. It would be romanised as oderaŋ and pronounced as [ɔ.dɛ.ɾɑŋ]:
Image
:con: : Dijo
:con: : Language 8 (Reviving Dijo)

BTW I use Arch
User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1869
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by masako » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 20:05

A longer sample would be nice when you get a chance. Also, I would challenge you to simultaneously create a handwritten/calligraphic version. That would be a real treat.
User avatar
OTʜᴇB
roman
roman
Posts: 935
Joined: Sat 14 May 2016, 10:59
Location: SW England

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by OTʜᴇB » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 20:22

masako wrote:A longer sample would be nice when you get a chance. Also, I would challenge you to simultaneously create a handwritten/calligraphic version. That would be a real treat.
Certainly. In terms of a calligraphic version, because of the theme of it, what I have would be a calligraphic version. I mentioned the tapered square-tip pen, as that would be the calligraphers' tool of choice to reproduce the even lines and perfect corners - the calligraphic version is basically the computer version on paper. Hand-written, that same sample would look a bit like this:
Spoiler:
Image
Of course as I get better at writing it, it will start to look increasingly clumsy and more realistic to what a handwritten form would actually look like, but the point is that it follows specific proportions and distances and angles etc.
:con: : Dijo
:con: : Language 8 (Reviving Dijo)

BTW I use Arch
User avatar
shanoxilt
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon 30 May 2016, 05:51

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by shanoxilt » Mon 23 Jan 2017, 23:56

Isfendil wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:
clawgrip wrote:I like this script, actually, but who is Tribemember Stone, and who is "us"?
That's what I would like to know as well
The Sajem Tan clan (of which Shano is a member), who develop the mythos and structure of the Sajem Tan language. That's all I know, Shano will probably turn up to tell you more.
Stone is the member of the Sajem Tan collaborative language tribe who is in charge of orthography.

We started on the Listserv a little over a year ago.

If anyone would like to join, please send me a private message so that I may link you to the Discord server.
User avatar
cedh
metal
metal
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed 07 Sep 2011, 21:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by cedh » Tue 24 Jan 2017, 11:18

I have a few questions:

I'm in the planning stages for creating a script for Ndak Ta, one of the most important languages of the Akana project. I'm not starting from zero though: There have been lengthy discussions about the history of writing in Akana, and some information has been published both about the logographic precursor script and, recently, about an alphabetic descendant (which of course constrains my glyph choices somewhat, but that's okay).

The Ndak script itself is supposed to be mostly syllabic, with some logograms used for the most important content words. In the initial stage, almost all content words will be written with a logogram in some way, whereas later stages of the script expand the use of the syllabary portion of the script by writing more and more words purely phonetically. Most logograms are initially used for several semantically related concepts (e.g. "fire", "flame", "to burn", "hot"...) and can therefore have very different phonetic readings; however, the phonetic readings for the syllabary are almost all taken from the most typical noun designated with the original logogram.

First question:
How do I get a plausible mixture of logographic and phonetic representation within the same word? The original idea was that every content word is represented with a single logogram (taking the place of the stressed syllable, which is usually but not always the first syllable), plus syllabic glyphs to represent unstressed syllables. But how would people know which of the glyphs is meant to be a logogram if it's not word-initial, especially at first when all the syllable glyphs can also be used logographically? Any ideas how to disambiguate that? Other ideas how to create a good mixed system?

Second question:
The syllabary portion of the script is intended to be somewhat defective:
- consonant voicing is not distinguished
- /s/ and /ts/ are not distinguished
- /w/ and /u/ are not distinguished; consonant labialisation is written as two syllables (e.g. /kʷa/ <KU-A>)
- coda consonants are not distinguished from CV syllables with echo vowels (e.g. /kat/ = /kata/ <KA-TA>)
- vowel nasality is not distinguished systematically, but consonant prenasalisation is distinguished; this is used word-medially to mark both nasality of a preceding vowel and word-medial NC clusters (i.e. /ãka/ = /aŋka/ <A-NGKA>)
So far, so good. However, Ndak Ta has fairly frequent word-final clusters /pm bm tn dn tsn kŋ gŋ/ with phonetically syllabic nasals. Word-initial syllabic nasals are already covered with the "prenasalised" syllable glyphs. Since none of the relevant clusters occur non-finally (and all syllable glyphs are supposed to derive from earlier word-initial readings of logograms), I find it hard to come up with a plausible way for writing them. Options include:
- double echo vowels (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-MA>)
- four separate glyphs for all N= syllables, disregarding voicing (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PM>)
- three separate glyphs for syllabic /m n ŋ/ (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-M>)
- one separate glyph for abstract N= (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-N=>)
- add five glyphs for nasalised V~ syllables (which can also be used in other positions), and use them as echo vowels (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-A~>)
- ...
Which of these do you consider most likely? most interesting? most pleasing? Any other ideas?

Thanks a lot in advance!
User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1869
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by masako » Tue 24 Jan 2017, 13:41

cedh wrote:I'm in the planning stages for creating a script for Ndak Ta, one of the most important languages of the Akana project.
I, for one, have been waiting for this, with great anticipation. I read updates on the AkanaWiki often.
cedh wrote:How do I get a plausible mixture of logographic and phonetic representation within the same word?
A system similar to Hanzi, or even Mayan glyphs would seem to fit what you're describing.
cedh wrote:But how would people know which of the glyphs is meant to be a logogram if it's not word-initial, especially at first when all the syllable glyphs can also be used logographically?
Most likely this would come with apprehension and simply being a feature inherent to the overall system. However, syllable glyphs would/could use distinct strokes or stroke order that would cause them to be readily identifiable, or the inverse, mark logograms as such.
cedh wrote:Other ideas how to create a good mixed system?
Not to be too self-aggrandizing, but have you seen my Omyatloko? There are others, Sitelen, for Tokipona, Brumian, and my personal favorite Pseudoglyphs. So you see, it's not difficult to start with one (either logograms or syllables) and use them to create the other.
cedh wrote:Which of these do you consider most likely? most interesting? most pleasing? Any other ideas?
They all seem possible, however I'd suggest that "one separate glyph for abstract N=" would most likely move to being a simple stroke (or two) added to the base glyph, and various diacritic forms for word-final clusters. I would find a mark or separate glyph marking echoed vowels to be a very interesting addition in that it would mark nothing else and seeing how that glyph came to be would marvelous.

I wish you luck and I look forward to what you create.
clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2319
Joined: Sun 24 Jun 2012, 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by clawgrip » Tue 24 Jan 2017, 13:51

cedh wrote:I have a few questions:

I'm in the planning stages for creating a script for Ndak Ta, one of the most important languages of the Akana project. I'm not starting from zero though: There have been lengthy discussions about the history of writing in Akana, and some information has been published both about the logographic precursor script and, recently, about an alphabetic descendant (which of course constrains my glyph choices somewhat, but that's okay).
We once discussed me working on that logographic script, but at the time I attempted and failed to find good inspiration for evolving it. Perhaps I should try again.
First question:
How do I get a plausible mixture of logographic and phonetic representation within the same word? The original idea was that every content word is represented with a single logogram (taking the place of the stressed syllable, which is usually but not always the first syllable), plus syllabic glyphs to represent unstressed syllables. But how would people know which of the glyphs is meant to be a logogram if it's not word-initial, especially at first when all the syllable glyphs can also be used logographically? Any ideas how to disambiguate that? Other ideas how to create a good mixed system?
The highlighted section is a glaring point I need to address first of all. The question here is, why? Why would you set up the writing system this way? I ask because I am doubtful that a culture in the process of becoming literate are going to chose syllable weight as one of the defining features of their logophonetic writing system, especially if it were a writing system imported from some other language.

You are proposing something like 猿keys for "monkeys" and ba猿s for "baboons", correct? I think it is far more likely they would just write 猿keys and 猿boons. I cannot think of any motivation the speakers of such a language would have for being written the way you propose, especially considering it creates a problem that you have identified, and also because it almost always appears first anyway, as you said. If I am misunderstanding something, let me know.
Second question:
The syllabary portion of the script is intended to be somewhat defective:
- consonant voicing is not distinguished
- /s/ and /ts/ are not distinguished
- /w/ and /u/ are not distinguished; consonant labialisation is written as two syllables (e.g. /kʷa/ <KU-A>)
- coda consonants are not distinguished from CV syllables with echo vowels (e.g. /kat/ = /kata/ <KA-TA>)
- vowel nasality is not distinguished systematically, but consonant prenasalisation is distinguished; this is used word-medially to mark both nasality of a preceding vowel and word-medial NC clusters (i.e. /ãka/ = /aŋka/ <A-NGKA>)
So far, so good. However, Ndak Ta has fairly frequent word-final clusters /pm bm tn dn tsn kŋ gŋ/ with phonetically syllabic nasals. Word-initial syllabic nasals are already covered with the "prenasalised" syllable glyphs. Since none of the relevant clusters occur non-finally (and all syllable glyphs are supposed to derive from earlier word-initial readings of logograms), I find it hard to come up with a plausible way for writing them. Options include:
- double echo vowels (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-MA>)
- four separate glyphs for all N= syllables, disregarding voicing (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PM>)
- three separate glyphs for syllabic /m n ŋ/ (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-M>)
- one separate glyph for abstract N= (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-N=>)
- add five glyphs for nasalised V~ syllables (which can also be used in other positions), and use them as echo vowels (i.e. /mabm/ <MA-PA-A~>)
- ...
Which of these do you consider most likely? most interesting? most pleasing? Any other ideas?

Thanks a lot in advance!
I personally of like the 4th option: the nasal sign with an undefined articulation point.
User avatar
cedh
metal
metal
Posts: 313
Joined: Wed 07 Sep 2011, 21:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Con-Script Development Centre

Post by cedh » Tue 24 Jan 2017, 17:56

Thanks a lot, both of you!
masako wrote:my personal favorite Pseudoglyphs
I like this script a lot too (especially the shorthand version), but it derives quasi-logograms from a featural syllabary. The Ndak script will do the opposite: Start with logograms, and derive a (non-featural) syllabary from there.
masako wrote:
cedh wrote:Which of these do you consider most likely? most interesting? most pleasing? Any other ideas?
I'd suggest that "one separate glyph for abstract N=" would most likely move to being a simple stroke (or two) added to the base glyph, and various diacritic forms for word-final clusters.
Good point!
clawgrip wrote:I personally of like the 4th option: the nasal sign with an undefined articulation point.
I like this one too, but I fear it may be much harder to justify than the other options, because it presupposes an advanced phonemic analysis that [+nasal] > [α place] / [+plosive, α place]_#, which is unlikely for an Early Iron Age culture.
clawgrip wrote:
cedh wrote:First question:
How do I get a plausible mixture of logographic and phonetic representation within the same word? The original idea was that every content word is represented with a single logogram (taking the place of the stressed syllable, which is usually but not always the first syllable), plus syllabic glyphs to represent unstressed syllables. But how would people know which of the glyphs is meant to be a logogram if it's not word-initial, especially at first when all the syllable glyphs can also be used logographically? Any ideas how to disambiguate that? Other ideas how to create a good mixed system?
The highlighted section is a glaring point I need to address first of all. The question here is, why? Why would you set up the writing system this way? I ask because I am doubtful that a culture in the process of becoming literate are going to chose syllable weight as one of the defining features of their logophonetic writing system, especially if it were a writing system imported from some other language.

You are proposing something like 猿keys for "monkeys" and ba猿s for "baboons", correct? I think it is far more likely they would just write 猿keys and 猿boons. I cannot think of any motivation the speakers of such a language would have for being written the way you propose, especially considering it creates a problem that you have identified, and also because it almost always appears first anyway, as you said. If I am misunderstanding something, let me know.
You're understanding correctly. This is not something I'd choose myself, I think. It's based on my understanding of the semi-canonic description at the end of this post by Radius, the creator of the Ndak Ta language. But I think one can read that post also like "猿keys and 猿boons", with the exception that the specific logogram would not be chosen as a source for a syllable glyph for /ba/ because that syllable is unstressed in baboons. If we'd go with that system, the language as described actually has only about 12 syllables that could ever appear before the logogram for the word root, namely the various verbal mood prefixes and the causative prefix. Thinking of it, it actually wouldn't be too implausible to have separate logograms for these, I think, although it'd be rather difficult to come up with these logograms because the meanings of these grammaticalised prefixes are fairly abstract...
clawgrip wrote:We once discussed me working on that logographic script, but at the time I attempted and failed to find good inspiration for evolving it. Perhaps I should try again.
Absolutely! I'd be very much in favor of a collaboration here, if you're up for it. (Although that would be easier if we could meet in person and hand over pieces of paper directly.) Maybe I'll sketch out a basic first-draft proposal for (part of) the syllabary, and that could give you some inspiration?
Post Reply