The Languages of Yantas

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The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 16:51

So, I thought I'd bring together all of my Yantas languages stuff into one thread, just to show how they all interact with each other. I'll still be working on each language family individually but this thread could kind of act as a hub, and I could use it to show off future plans for smaller language families I haven't quite started working on yet.

So, to start with, here's a map, showing the three languages families I've been working on so far, their main branches and some areas where I might start working on further language families (see here for names of continents and oceans), in the areas they occupy at around 1AD in our timeline:

Image

The Skawlan languages, descended from Proto-Skawlas, are spoken in north-western and western Arenda.

The Sirdic languages, descended from Proto-Sirdic, are spoken in the western areas of Sirden, the western areas of the Great Bridge and the islands of the Sunset Ocean.

The Lesic languages, descended from Lesi Kirra, are spoken in the eastern regions of Sirden and the Bow Islands of the Great Eastern Ocean.

Other languages families, as yet unnamed and still to be worked on, are all indicated in pink. At the moment, they predominantly stand as a potential source of loan words and they help fill in the geographical gaps between the other three language families I've already started working on.





You won't, though, see any human language families turn up in Mistaya or most of Hungas at this point, however, since these areas are home to the Kovur, a non-human, wolf-like, bipedal species that I haven't quite worked out a means of communication for yet. They will likely use speech, but since they're not human, it might be that I only develop inter-species creoles for them.

There may or may not be any languages spoken on the Frozen Twins of Velkasta at this point. I'm thinking that there probably should be, but they'd be very, very isolated and probably restricted to the warmer areas of the the north.





I am planning on having a language family, or language families, that employ the use of clicks, but these might be restricted to the coastal regions of eastern Arenda between the Great Bridge and Konyur.

I'm also thinking of having a tonal sprachbund in Konyur, with other tonal languages dotted around other areas of the Arenda and the Great Bridge, but having phonemic tone be much rarer in Sirden, possibly limited to areas of the northern coast.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 17:45

sangi39 wrote:So, I thought I'd bring together all of my Yantas languages stuff into one thread, just to show how they all interact with each other. I'll still be working on each language family individually but this thread could kind of act as a hub, and I could use it to show off future plans for smaller language families I haven't quite started working on yet.
[+1] Lovely! I look forward to seeing future developments, either here or in one of the other threads!
sangi39 wrote:So, to start with, here's a map, showing the three languages families I've been working on so far, their main branches and some areas where I might start working on further language families (see here for names of continents and oceans), in the areas they occupy at around 1AD in our timeline:
Spoiler:
Image
The Skawlan languages, descended from Proto-Skawlas, are spoken in north-western and western Arenda.

The Sirdic languages, descended from Proto-Sirdic, are spoken in the western areas of Sirden, the western areas of the Great Bridge and the islands of the Sunset Ocean.

The Lesic languages, descended from Lesi Kirra, are spoken in the eastern regions of Sirden and the Bow Islands of the Great Eastern Ocean.
The names of the continents and oceans are phonaesthetically pleasing, and many of them are quite poetic!
sangi39 wrote:Other languages families, as yet unnamed and still to be worked on, are all indicated in pink. At the moment, they predominantly stand as a potential source of loan words and they help fill in the geographical gaps between the other three language families I've already started working on.
Are the areas between the main families and the pink zones uninhabited, or are those just areas that you don't currently have plans for?
sangi39 wrote:You won't, though, see any human language families turn up in Mistaya or most of Hungas at this point, however, since these areas are home to the Kovur, a non-human, wolf-like, bipedal species that I haven't quite worked out a means of communication for yet. They will likely use speech, but since they're not human, it might be that I only develop inter-species creoles for them.

There may or may not be any languages spoken on the Frozen Twins of Velkasta at this point. I'm thinking that there probably should be, but they'd be very, very isolated and probably restricted to the warmer areas of the the north.
Oh, that's a very interesting situation! An estimates, as of now, for how long the kovur and the humans will remain isolated from one another?

I'll have to read through the other threads about the kovur and about the planet itself when I get a chance.
sangi39 wrote:I am planning on having a language family, or language families, that employ the use of clicks, but these might be restricted to the coastal regions of eastern Arenda between the Great Bridge and Konyur.

I'm also thinking of having a tonal sprachbund in Konyur, with other tonal languages dotted around other areas of the Arenda and the Great Bridge, but having phonemic tone be much rarer in Sirden, possibly limited to areas of the northern coast.
[+1]
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 18:09

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:So, I thought I'd bring together all of my Yantas languages stuff into one thread, just to show how they all interact with each other. I'll still be working on each language family individually but this thread could kind of act as a hub, and I could use it to show off future plans for smaller language families I haven't quite started working on yet.
[+1] Lovely! I look forward to seeing future developments, either here or in one of the other threads!
I'm quite looking forward to expanding the world as well, even if it's just a rough draft in some areas.

What I really want to do as well is get back to working on the cultures of the proto-language speakers, which I think might help fill out the vocabulary which I also need to get working on as well.

My plan for the moment is bring all the Yantas threads together, which I've mostly done, get working on vocabulary for the proto-languages, work a bit more on the grammar as I work on the culture, and then try and translate some stuff as well before moving on a bit more the descendant languages. I'm hoping the more structured I am, the more work I can manage to do [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:So, to start with, here's a map, showing the three languages families I've been working on so far, their main branches and some areas where I might start working on further language families (see here for names of continents and oceans), in the areas they occupy at around 1AD in our timeline:
Spoiler:
Image
The Skawlan languages, descended from Proto-Skawlas, are spoken in north-western and western Arenda.

The Sirdic languages, descended from Proto-Sirdic, are spoken in the western areas of Sirden, the western areas of the Great Bridge and the islands of the Sunset Ocean.

The Lesic languages, descended from Lesi Kirra, are spoken in the eastern regions of Sirden and the Bow Islands of the Great Eastern Ocean.
The names of the continents and oceans are phonaesthetically pleasing, and many of them are quite poetic!
I quite liked them [:)] And I'm not planning on changing them either, unless I end up translating them [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Other languages families, as yet unnamed and still to be worked on, are all indicated in pink. At the moment, they predominantly stand as a potential source of loan words and they help fill in the geographical gaps between the other three language families I've already started working on.
Are the areas between the main families and the pink zones uninhabited, or are those just areas that you don't currently have plans for?
The pink areas are kind of "this is generally where this group of languages would be spoken" so they're a bit of a rough draft. The areas around them will likely be inhabited by people speaking those languages [:)]


sangi39 wrote:You won't, though, see any human language families turn up in Mistaya or most of Hungas at this point, however, since these areas are home to the Kovur, a non-human, wolf-like, bipedal species that I haven't quite worked out a means of communication for yet. They will likely use speech, but since they're not human, it might be that I only develop inter-species creoles for them.

There may or may not be any languages spoken on the Frozen Twins of Velkasta at this point. I'm thinking that there probably should be, but they'd be very, very isolated and probably restricted to the warmer areas of the the north.
Oh, that's a very interesting situation! An estimates, as of now, for how long the kovur and the humans will remain isolated from one another?

I'll have to read through the other threads about the kovur and about the planet itself when I get a chance.[/quote]

Contact-wise, humans are probably in contact with the Kovur right now in south-western Hungas and north-eastern Konyur, and they might have been in contact by this point for around 8-10,000 years. Contact between the people of Sirden and the Kovur, however, won't occur for another 1.5-2,000 years when they finally manage to cross the Sunset Ocean an reach Mistaya.

It's kind of like the rumours and tales of strange men with one leg or faces on their chest that you see in Medieval European stuff, but then they turn out to be true [:P]

The thread on the Kovur isn't very well developed beyond a physical description and the musth-like "storming" of males, but I suppose beyond that more in depth descriptions would be specific to given cultural groups rather than the species as a whole, similar to descriptions of humans.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 18:36

sangi39 wrote:What I really want to do as well is get back to working on the cultures of the proto-language speakers, which I think might help fill out the vocabulary which I also need to get working on as well.

My plan for the moment is bring all the Yantas threads together, which I've mostly done, get working on vocabulary for the proto-languages, work a bit more on the grammar as I work on the culture, and then try and translate some stuff as well before moving on a bit more the descendant languages. I'm hoping the more structured I am, the more work I can manage to do [:)]
Sounds like a good plan to me! In my own work, I've especially found that fleshing out the culture of an ethnolinguistic community can be very helpful when it comes to creating their language.
sangi39 wrote:Contact-wise, humans are probably in contact with the Kovur right now in south-western Hungas and north-eastern Konyur, and they might have been in contact by this point for around 8-10,000 years. Contact between the people of Sirden and the Kovur, however, won't occur for another 1.5-2,000 years when they finally manage to cross the Sunset Ocean an reach Mistaya.

It's kind of like the rumours and tales of strange men with one leg or faces on their chest that you see in Medieval European stuff, but then they turn out to be true [:P]
Interesting comparison! I don't think I would have ever thought of it like that on my own, but it does seem very apt to me. [:D]
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Thu 16 Jul 2015, 19:37

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:What I really want to do as well is get back to working on the cultures of the proto-language speakers, which I think might help fill out the vocabulary which I also need to get working on as well.

My plan for the moment is bring all the Yantas threads together, which I've mostly done, get working on vocabulary for the proto-languages, work a bit more on the grammar as I work on the culture, and then try and translate some stuff as well before moving on a bit more the descendant languages. I'm hoping the more structured I am, the more work I can manage to do [:)]
Sounds like a good plan to me! In my own work, I've especially found that fleshing out the culture of an ethnolinguistic community can be very helpful when it comes to creating their language.
Here's hoping my plan goes in a similarly productive direction [:)]


shimobaater wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Contact-wise, humans are probably in contact with the Kovur right now in south-western Hungas and north-eastern Konyur, and they might have been in contact by this point for around 8-10,000 years. Contact between the people of Sirden and the Kovur, however, won't occur for another 1.5-2,000 years when they finally manage to cross the Sunset Ocean an reach Mistaya.

It's kind of like the rumours and tales of strange men with one leg or faces on their chest that you see in Medieval European stuff, but then they turn out to be true [:P]
Interesting comparison! I don't think I would have ever thought of it like that on my own, but it does seem very apt to me. [:D]
It came about quite randomly. I mentioned in the Kovur thread that the idea for them came about before the idea for Yantas, and I didn't develop Yantas with human-Kovur interactions like that to arise. It was a nice, happy coincidence [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 21:27

Thought I'd try to name the language families that I'd marked in pink above:

Image

a) Tl'arga languages
b) Sjikan languages
c) Vuluka languages
d) Gdrenk languages
e) Kalabi languages
f) Feluo languages
g) Mesit languages

Each of these families derive from proto-languages spoken between 4000 and 1000BC, although I'm not sure yet which ones are how old yet, although I do have some vague ideas regarding the phoneme inventories and phonotactics of each proto-language.



I've also marked out the area predominantly occupied by the Kovur at this point as well, in light blue-purple.
Last edited by sangi39 on Sun 19 Jul 2015, 18:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 19 Jul 2015, 16:50

sangi39 wrote:Thought I'd try to name the language families that I'd marked in pink above:
Spoiler:
Image
a) Tl'arga languages
b) Sjikan languages
c) Vuluka languages
d) Gdrenk languages
e) Kalabi languages
f) Feluo languages
g) Mesit languages

Each of these families derive from proto-languages spoken between 4000 and 1000BC, although I'm not sure yet which ones are how old yet, although I do have some vague ideas regarding the phoneme inventories and phonotactics of each proto-language.
[<3]
sangi39 wrote:I've also marked out the area predominantly occupied by the Kovur at this point as well, in light brown.
Are the two areas that were marked with light brown before still occupied primarily by humans?
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Sun 19 Jul 2015, 18:38

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Thought I'd try to name the language families that I'd marked in pink above:
Spoiler:
Image
a) Tl'arga languages
b) Sjikan languages
c) Vuluka languages
d) Gdrenk languages
e) Kalabi languages
f) Feluo languages
g) Mesit languages

Each of these families derive from proto-languages spoken between 4000 and 1000BC, although I'm not sure yet which ones are how old yet, although I do have some vague ideas regarding the phoneme inventories and phonotactics of each proto-language.
[<3]
Thank you [:)] The ones I'm really looking forward to are the Gdrenk languages which I'm planning on being very consonant heavy and then the Vuluka languages as well, which I'm planning on being quite old, but being subject to a series of expansions within the region which kind of wipe out most of the languages in various branches of the language creating a number of (kind of) isolates separated from each other by over a millennium of evolution. Something similar might happen with the Sjikan languages.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:I've also marked out the area predominantly occupied by the Kovur at this point as well, in light brown.
Are the two areas that were marked with light brown before still occupied primarily by humans?
Damn! I wasn't paying attention to that, but yes, they would still be occupied only by humans [:)]

I'll go back and edit that [:P]
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 00:03

I thought I'd throw together some phoneme inventories together for the proto-languages of the 7 language families named above (not including phonotactics, except vague descriptions) as well as romanisations:


a) Proto-Tl'arga


/p t tɬ k q/ <b d dł g y>
/t' tɬ' k' q' ʔ/ <t' tł' k' q' '>
/pʰ tʰ tɬʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t tł k q>
/s ɬ x h/ <s ł x h>
/s' ɬ' x'/ <s' ł' x'>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/r l/ <r l>
/w j/ <w j>

/i: ɨ: u:/ (high tone only) <í ɨ́ ú>
/i ɨ u/ (low or high tone) <i ɨ u>
/iˀ ɨˀ uˀ/ (low tone only) <ị ɨ̣ ụ>
/e: o:/ (high tone only) <é ó>
/e o/ (low or high tone) <e o>
/eˀ oˀ/ (low tone only) <ẹ ọ>
/a:/ (high tone only) <á>
/a/ (low or high tone) <a>
/aˀ/ (low tone only) <>

Only the low tone is indicated on plain short vowels, by means of a grave accent.

Proto-Tl'arga wouldn't have an overly complex syllable structure, maybe nothing beyond CV(C).



b) Proto-Sjikan


/p t tʲ k kʲ/ <p t tj k kj>
/b d dʲ g gʲ/ <b d dj g gj>
/m n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ <m n nj ng ngj>
/f s sʲ h hʲ/ <f s sj h hj>
/r rʲ l lʲ/ <r rj l lj>
/w j/ <w y>

/ʲi~ɪ ʲʉ~u/ <i u>
/ʲe~e̠ ʲɵ~o/ <e o>
/ʲæ~ɑ/ <a>

Proto-Sjikan might not go beyond CV



c) Proto-Vuluka


/p t ʈ k q/ <p t ṭ k ḳ>
/f s ʂ x χ/ <f s ṣ h ḥ>
/r ɽ/ <r ṛ>
/w j/ <w j>

/i ĩ u ũ/ <i in u un>
/ɪɛ ɪẽ ɪa ɪã ʊa ʊã ʊɔ ʊõ/ <ie ien ia ian ua uan uo uon>
/e ẽ o õ/ <e en o on>
/ɛɪ ẽɪ ɔʊ õʊ/ <ei ein ou oun>
/ɛ ɔ/ <ea oa>
/a ã/ <a an>
/aɪ ãɪ aʊ ãʊ/ <ai ain au aun>

Proto-Vuluka might allow for consonant clusters in onsets, but only have open syllables, so C(C)V.



d) Proto-Gdrenk


/p(ʰ) t(ʰ) tʃ(ʰ) k(ʰ) q(ʰ)/ <p t č k q>
/b d dʒ g/ <b d ǰ g>
/p' t' tʃ' k' q'/ <p' t' č' k' q'>
/m n/ <m n>
/s ʃ x/ <s š h>
/v z ʒ ɣ/ <v z ž y>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i i: u u:/ <i í u ú>
/e e: o:/ <e é ó>
/a a:/ <a á>

Proto-Gdrenk will end up having the most complex syllable structure of these proto-languages, allowing for syllables with large clusters, (C)(C)(C)(C)(C)V(:)(C)(C) but there will be restrictions on what consonants can occur within clusters, which mean longer onset clusters will have a more or less predictable form, e.g. /ngdrj/ would be possible with /pmt'ks/ would not. I'll likely expand on this later.



e) Proto-Kalabi


/t k/ <t k>
/b d/ <b d>
/n/ <n>
/h/ <h>
/l/ <l>

/i/ <í>
/ɪ/ <i>
/o/ <o>
/ɛ/ <e>
/a/ <a>

As well as having such a small phoneme inventory Proto-Kalabi also has a syllable structure of (C)V, making it the only proto-language I have so far that allows for a null-onset as well as vowel clusters.



f) Proto-Feluo


/p t c k/ <p t č k>
/m n/ <m n>
/ɸ s ç h/ <f s š h>
/v r j ʁ/ <v r j g>

/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø o/ <e ö o>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>

Proto-Feluo will have a syllable structure of C(V)(C/V) with a fairly large number of diphthongs that can occur in open syllables.



g) Proto-Mesit


/p t ts tʃ k kx/ <p t c č k x>
/b d dz dʒ/ <b d ʒ ǯ>
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ x/ <θ s š h>
/v ð z ʒ ɣ/ <v ð z ž g>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

Proto-Mesit will have a CV(C) syllable structure, as well as a system of vowel harmony, combining front-back harmony and height harmony, although I'm still working on the exact details but it will likely also relate to stress.
Last edited by sangi39 on Tue 21 Jul 2015, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 14:49

To go back to Proto-Gdrenk's consonant clusters, we find the following kinds:

Code: Select all

Onset

      NR   NG   NRG
      FR   FG   FRG
      PR   PG   PRG
NP   NPR  NPG  NPRG
NPP NPPR NPPG NPPRG
FP   FPR  FPG  FPRG
FPP FPPR FPPG FPPRG

PP <pt pč kt kč qt qč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
FP <sp st sč sk sq> <šp št šč šk šq> <hp ht hč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
NP <mp nt nč nk nq> + voiced and ejective counterparts
The PP elements of FPP- and NPP-initial clusters are the same those noted above



Coda

Only NP, RP, FP and GP, RF, GF, RN and GN clusters are found in coda position



---------


P <p t č k q> <b d ǰ g> <p' t' č' k' q'>
N <m n>
F <s š h> <v z ž y>
R <r l>
G <v j>

<v> acts as a member of both G and F. It cannot appear before a plosive or another instance of <v>, but it can occur before one of <r l j rj lj>. Similarly, it can appear after one or <r l j> at the end of a syllable.


So, for example šrvals and ngdljénk would be valid syllables while jlads and tsó would not be.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 17:08

And to go back to Proto-Mesit's vowel harmony:


Proto-Mesit has the following vowels:

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

These fall into several classes, the first based on frontness:

Front: <i e>
Neutral: <ë a>
Back: <u o>

And the second based on height:

High: <i ë u>
Low: <e a o>

Primary stress is placed on the final syllable of the root (whether original or derived), unless the preceding syllable is heavy. This stressed vowel then determines whether following or preceding non-neutral vowels throughout the entire word are either front or back.

Secondary stress is placed on each odd numbered syllable from the start of the word, except when adjacent to a syllable carrying primary stress. Syllables carrying secondary stress determine the height of vowel only in the unstressed syllable(s) immediately preceding it.

So let's take two nonsense examples /na.ði/ and /tʃor.ti/. In the former, the final syllable is stressed while in the latter, the penultimate syllable is stress giving /naˈði/ and /ˈtʃor.ti/. Now, since stressed syllables control the height of preceding unstressed vowels, /naˈði/ must be [nəˈði]. Similarly, the syllable carrying primary stress determines the frontness of all syllables within a given word, meaning /ˈtʃor.ti/ must become [ˈtʃor.tu] in order to conform to these rules.

Now let's say we wanted to add an inflectional suffix -/mo/ to each word, giving us [nəˈði.mo] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Again, primary stressed syllables determine frontness of all vowels, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Seconday stress is placed on even syllables except when adjacent to primary stress, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tuˌmo], and since stressed vowels also determine the height of preceding unstressed vowels, we get [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.toˌmo] as the final result.

If, however, -/mo/ had been a derivational suffix, giving /na.ði.mo/ and /tʃor.ti.mo/ instead, then the resulting roots would have been [ˌna.ðoˈmo] and [ˌtʃor.toˈmo].

As you can see, derivational affixes have the potential to shift whether a root contains back (and neutral) vowels or front (and neutral) vowels while inflectional affixes have their frontness determined by the root.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 23:35

sangi39 wrote: Thank you [:)] The ones I'm really looking forward to are the Gdrenk languages which I'm planning on being very consonant heavy and then the Vuluka languages as well, which I'm planning on being quite old, but being subject to a series of expansions within the region which kind of wipe out most of the languages in various branches of the language creating a number of (kind of) isolates separated from each other by over a millennium of evolution. Something similar might happen with the Sjikan languages.
I'd say Gdrenk is my favorite of the names. [:)] I really like your idea for creating "isolates", as well.
sangi39 wrote:Damn! I wasn't paying attention to that, but yes, they would still be occupied only by humans [:)]

I'll go back and edit that [:P]
Heh, no worries, I can guarantee I'd have done the same thing myself.
sangi39 wrote:I thought I'd throw together some phoneme inventories together for the proto-languages of the 7 language families named above (not including phonotactics, except vague descriptions) as well as romanisations:
[+1] :mrgreen:
sangi39 wrote:a) Proto-Tl'arga
Spoiler:
/p t tɬ k q/ <b ł dł g y>
/t' tɬ' k' q' ʔ/ <t' tł' k' q' '>
/pʰ tʰ tɬʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p tł k q>
/s ɬ x h/ <s ł x h>
/s' ɬ' x'/ <s' ł' x'>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/r l/ <r l>
/w j/ <w j>

/i: ɨ: u:/ (high tone only) <í ɨ́ ú>
/i ɨ u/ (low or high tone) <i ɨ u>
/iˀ ɨˀ uˀ/ (low tone only) <ị ɨ̣ ụ>
/e: o:/ (high tone only) <é ó>
/e o/ (low or high tone) <e o>
/eˀ oˀ/ (low tone only) <ẹ ọ>
/a:/ (high tone only) <á>
/a/ (low or high tone) <a>
/aˀ/ (low tone only) <>

Only the low tone is indicated on plain short vowels, by means of a grave accent.

Proto-Tl'arga wouldn't have an overly complex syllable structure, maybe nothing beyond CV(C).
I love the idea of representing unaspirated /q/ as <y>. I like the rest of the orthography as well, but are the first few lines which exhibit the stops supposed to look more like the following (my edits, which may be completely wrong, are in bold)?

/p t tɬ k q/ <b d dł g y>
/t' tɬ' k' q' ʔ/ <t' tł' k' q' '>
/pʰ tʰ tɬʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t tł k q>

Also, do I understand correctly that plain, short vowels are orthographically unmarked, so to speak, when they are pronounced with a high-tone?

Were there any particular languages/language families that inspired this phonology, if you don't mind my asking?
sangi39 wrote:b) Proto-Sjikan
Spoiler:
/p t tʲ k kʲ/ <p t tj k kj>
/b d dʲ g gʲ/ <b d dj g gj>
/m n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ <m n nj ng ngj>
/f s sʲ h hʲ/ <f s sj h hj>
/r rʲ l lʲ/ <r rj l lj>
/w j/ <w y>

/ʲi~ɪ ʲʉ~u/ <i u>
/ʲe~e̠ ʲɵ~o/ <e o>
/ʲæ~ɑ/ <a>

Proto-Sjikan might not go beyond CV
I like how many fairly symmetrical pairs of palatalized consonants there are, and how palatalization is differentiated orthographically from <y>. Regarding the vowels, would the "pre-palatalized" versions occur after palatalized consonants, with the other realizations occurring elsewhere, if that makes sense?
sangi39 wrote:c) Proto-Vuluka
Spoiler:
/p t ʈ k q/ <p t ṭ k ḳ>
/f s ʂ x χ/ <f s ṣ h ḥ>
/r ɽ/ <r ṛ>
/w j/ <w j>

/i ĩ u ũ/ <i in u un>
/ɪɛ ɪẽ ɪa ɪã ʊa ʊã ʊɔ ʊõ/ <ie ien ia ian ua uan uo uon>
/e ẽ o õ/ <e en o on>
/ɛɪ ẽɪ ɔʊ õʊ/ <ei ein ou oun>
/ɛ ɔ/ <ea oa>
/a ã/ <a an>
/aɪ ãɪ aʊ ãʊ/ <ai ain au aun>

Proto-Vuluka might allow for consonant clusters in onsets, but only have open syllables, so C(C)V.
I very much like the (at least orthographic) symmetry, so to speak, between the retroflex and uvular obstruents relative to their alveolar and velar counterparts. Hopefully that statement makes sense. The systems of nasal vowels and diphthongs are also beautiful. If it were up to me, I'd go with allowing onset clusters but no codas.
sangi39 wrote:d) Proto-Gdrenk
Spoiler:
/p(ʰ) t(ʰ) tʃ(ʰ) k(ʰ) q(ʰ)/ <p t č k q>
/b d dʒ g/ <b d ǰ g>
/p' t' tʃ' k' q'/ <p' t' č' k' q'>
/m n/ <m n>
/v s ʃ x/ <s š h>
/z ʒ ɣ/ <v z ž y>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i i: u u:/ <i í u ú>
/e e: o:/ <e é ó>
/a a:/ <a á>

Proto-Gdrenk will end up having the most complex syllable structure of these proto-languages, allowing for syllables with large clusters, (C)(C)(C)(C)(C)V(:)(C)(C) but there will be restrictions on what consonants can occur within clusters, which mean longer onset clusters will have a more or less predictable form, e.g. /ngdrj/ would be possible with /pmt'ks/ would not. I'll likely expand on this later.
Regarding the fricatives, was this the intended placement? I could certainly be wrong (edits are bolded again).

/s ʃ x/ <s š h>
/v z ʒ ɣ/ <v z ž y>

Anyway, I like the orthography, particularly the use of <y> for /ɣ/, the way the post-alveolar sibilants are represented, and the use of acute accents for long vowels. I'm also quite a fan of the optional(?) aspiration of the voiceless stops and the lack of a short /o/. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with in terms of further phonotactic restrictions.
sangi39 wrote:e) Proto-Kalabi
Spoiler:
/t k/ <t k>
/b d/ <b d>
/n/ <n>
/h/ <h>
/l/ <l>

/i/ <í>
/ɪ/ <i>
/o/ <o>
/ɛ/ <e>
/a/ <a>

As well as having such a small phoneme inventory Proto-Kalabi also has a syllable structure of (C)V, making it the only proto-language I have so far that allows for a null-onset as well as vowel clusters.
Nice and small, relatively speaking! The stop inventory is wonderful, and I'm happy to see /h/ as the only fricative, along with /n l/ as the lone sonorants. The vowels are also lovely, and the language's relatively unusual (in-world) phonotactics make things even better. [:D] Are you planning on placing any further restrictions on vowel clusters?
sangi39 wrote:f) Proto-Feluo
Spoiler:
/p t c k/ <p t č k>
/m n/ <m n>
/ɸ s ç h/ <f s š h>
/v r j ʁ/ <v r j g>

/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø o/ <e ö o>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>

Proto-Feluo will have a syllable structure of C(V)(C/V) with a fairly large number of diphthongs that can occur in open syllables.
It's awesome, in my opinion, to see letters like <č š> representing "true" palatals like /c ç/ here. The orthographic use of <g> also caught my eye, so to speak. The voiceless bilabial fricative (especially since it's "paired" with a voiced labiodental fricative) and the four "umlauted" vowels (both the letters themselves and the phonemes they represent) are also very cool! Any plans on which diphthongs will be allowed, and which won't?
sangi39 wrote:g) Proto-Mesit
Spoiler:
/p t ts tʃ k kx/ <p t c č k x>
/b d dz dʒ/ <b d ʒ ǯ>
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ x/ <θ s š h>
/v ð z ʒ ɣ/ <v ð z ž g>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

Proto-Mesit will have a CV(C) syllable structure, as well as a system of vowel harmony, combining front-back harmony and height harmony, although I'm still working on the exact details but it will likely also relate to stress.
I like the representations of the voiced sibilant affricates, the voiceless velar affricate, essentially all the fricatives, and the schwa in particular! I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about this system of vowel harmony. [:D]
sangi39 wrote:To go back to Proto-Gdrenk's consonant clusters, we find the following kinds:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Onset

      NR   NG   NRG
      FR   FG   FRG
      PR   PG   PRG
NP   NPR  NPG  NPRG
NPP NPPR NPPG NPPRG
FP   FPR  FPG  FPRG
FPP FPPR FPPG FPPRG

PP <pt pč kt kč qt qč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
FP <sp st sč sk sq> <šp št šč šk šq> <hp ht hč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
NP <mp nt nč nk nq> + voiced and ejective counterparts
The PP elements of FPP- and NPP-initial clusters are the same those noted above



Coda

Only NP, RP, FP and GP, RF, GF, RN and GN clusters are found in coda position



---------


P <p t č k q> <b d ǰ g> <p' t' č' k' q'>
N <m n>
F <s š h> <v z ž y>
R <r l>
G <v j>

<v> acts as a member of both G and F. It cannot appear before a plosive or another instance of <v>, but it can occur before one of <r l j rj lj>. Similarly, it can appear after one or <r l j> at the end of a syllable.


So, for example šrvals and ngdljénk would be valid syllables while jlads and tsó would not be.
Interesting! Regarding FP clusters, would the voiced counterparts of <sp st sč sk sq> <šp št šč šk šq> <hp ht hč> be <zb zd zǰ zg> <žb žd žǰ žg> <yb yd yǰ>? Would the ejective counterparts of the PP clusters <pt pč kt kč qt qč> be spelled <p't' p'č' k't' k'č' q't' q'č'> or <pt' pč' kt' kč' qt' qč'> or some other way? Would the ejective counterpart of a, for example, NPRG cluster like <nčrj> be romanized something like <nč'rj>?

I have a feeling I had other questions that I'm forgetting to ask, so my apologies if they suddenly come to me later and I ask them then. I like how /v/ can be a member of two groups, so to speak, in terms of phonotactics; are there any particular reasons for this "quirkiness"?
sangi39 wrote:And to go back to Proto-Mesit's vowel harmony:
Spoiler:
Proto-Mesit has the following vowels:

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

These fall into several classes, the first based on frontness:

Front: <i e>
Neutral: <ë a>
Back: <u o>

And the second based on height:

High: <i ë u>
Low: <e a o>

Primary stress is placed on the final syllable of the root (whether original or derived), unless the preceding syllable is heavy. This stressed vowel then determines whether following or preceding non-neutral vowels throughout the entire word are either front or back.

Secondary stress is placed on each odd numbered syllable from the start of the word, except when adjacent to a syllable carrying primary stress. Syllables carrying secondary stress determine the height of vowel only in the unstressed syllable(s) immediately preceding it.

So let's take two nonsense examples /na.ði/ and /tʃor.ti/. In the former, the final syllable is stressed while in the latter, the penultimate syllable is stress giving /naˈði/ and /ˈtʃor.ti/. Now, since stressed syllables control the height of preceding unstressed vowels, /naˈði/ must be [nəˈði]. Similarly, the syllable carrying primary stress determines the frontness of all syllables within a given word, meaning /ˈtʃor.ti/ must become [ˈtʃor.tu] in order to conform to these rules.

Now let's say we wanted to add an inflectional suffix -/mo/ to each word, giving us [nəˈði.mo] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Again, primary stressed syllables determine frontness of all vowels, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Seconday stress is placed on even syllables except when adjacent to primary stress, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tuˌmo], and since stressed vowels also determine the height of preceding unstressed vowels, we get [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.toˌmo] as the final result.

If, however, -/mo/ had been a derivational suffix, giving /na.ði.mo/ and /tʃor.ti.mo/ instead, then the resulting roots would have been [ˌna.ðoˈmo] and [ˌtʃor.toˈmo].

As you can see, derivational affixes have the potential to shift whether a root contains back (and neutral) vowels or front (and neutral) vowels while inflectional affixes have their frontness determined by the root.
Wow, I love this! It's a very creative and well thought-out system. It's cool how stress plays in, how there are two "kinds" of vowel harmony, and how derivational affixes differ from inflectional ones. I look forward to seeing this system "in action", so to speak, in the future! [:D]

If you don't mind my asking, though, could you further explain the placement of secondary stress, using longer example words, if possible?
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 00:36

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: Thank you [:)] The ones I'm really looking forward to are the Gdrenk languages which I'm planning on being very consonant heavy and then the Vuluka languages as well, which I'm planning on being quite old, but being subject to a series of expansions within the region which kind of wipe out most of the languages in various branches of the language creating a number of (kind of) isolates separated from each other by over a millennium of evolution. Something similar might happen with the Sjikan languages.
I'd say Gdrenk is my favorite of the names. [:)] I really like your idea for creating "isolates", as well.
Gdrenk is one of my favourite names too [:)]

As for the "isolate" idea, I'm hoping it will make sense once I start filling out those areas of the map a bit more. The general idea is that since Proto-Vuluka, the languages have spread out in waves, with these waves occurring multiple times over the course of history, with each successive wave spreading one particular language out quite far, wiping out surrounding languages, settling in, changing as speakers lose contact with each other with some other language then spreading out, repeating the process.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: a) Proto-Tl'arga
Spoiler:
/p t tɬ k q/ <b ł dł g y>
/t' tɬ' k' q' ʔ/ <t' tł' k' q' '>
/pʰ tʰ tɬʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p tł k q>
/s ɬ x h/ <s ł x h>
/s' ɬ' x'/ <s' ł' x'>
/m n ŋ/ <m n ŋ>
/r l/ <r l>
/w j/ <w j>

/i: ɨ: u:/ (high tone only) <í ɨ́ ú>
/i ɨ u/ (low or high tone) <i ɨ u>
/iˀ ɨˀ uˀ/ (low tone only) <ị ɨ̣ ụ>
/e: o:/ (high tone only) <é ó>
/e o/ (low or high tone) <e o>
/eˀ oˀ/ (low tone only) <ẹ ọ>
/a:/ (high tone only) <á>
/a/ (low or high tone) <a>
/aˀ/ (low tone only) <>

Only the low tone is indicated on plain short vowels, by means of a grave accent.

Proto-Tl'arga wouldn't have an overly complex syllable structure, maybe nothing beyond CV(C).
I love the idea of representing unaspirated /q/ as <y>. I like the rest of the orthography as well, but are the first few lines which exhibit the stops supposed to look more like the following (my edits, which may be completely wrong, are in bold)?

/p t tɬ k q/ <b d dł g y>
/t' tɬ' k' q' ʔ/ <t' tł' k' q' '>
/pʰ tʰ tɬʰ kʰ qʰ/ <p t tł k q>

Also, do I understand correctly that plain, short vowels are orthographically unmarked, so to speak, when they are pronounced with a high-tone?

Were there any particular languages/language families that inspired this phonology, if you don't mind my asking?
Nope, your edits were right. I messed up there [:P]

And yep, the plain short vowels, when carrying high tone, are unmarked orthographically [:)]

As for languages that inspired the phonology? Some of the Athabaskan languages inspired the consonant inventory. As for the vowels, I think that was a mix of Athabaskan and possibly South-East Asian, but I'm not too sure.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: b) Proto-Sjikan
Spoiler:
/p t tʲ k kʲ/ <p t tj k kj>
/b d dʲ g gʲ/ <b d dj g gj>
/m n nʲ ŋ ŋʲ/ <m n nj ng ngj>
/f s sʲ h hʲ/ <f s sj h hj>
/r rʲ l lʲ/ <r rj l lj>
/w j/ <w y>

/ʲi~ɪ ʲʉ~u/ <i u>
/ʲe~e̠ ʲɵ~o/ <e o>
/ʲæ~ɑ/ <a>

Proto-Sjikan might not go beyond CV
I like how many fairly symmetrical pairs of palatalized consonants there are, and how palatalization is differentiated orthographically from <y>. Regarding the vowels, would the "pre-palatalized" versions occur after palatalized consonants, with the other realizations occurring elsewhere, if that makes sense?
That's about right for the vowels, yeah. Each pair represents a pair of allophones, one found after a palatalised consonant, e.g. [ʲi] and one after a non-palatalised consonant, in this case [ɪ], both allophones of /i/. I just thought I'd try to demonstrate the allophony early on [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: c) Proto-Vuluka
Spoiler:
/p t ʈ k q/ <p t ṭ k ḳ>
/f s ʂ x χ/ <f s ṣ h ḥ>
/r ɽ/ <r ṛ>
/w j/ <w j>

/i ĩ u ũ/ <i in u un>
/ɪɛ ɪẽ ɪa ɪã ʊa ʊã ʊɔ ʊõ/ <ie ien ia ian ua uan uo uon>
/e ẽ o õ/ <e en o on>
/ɛɪ ẽɪ ɔʊ õʊ/ <ei ein ou oun>
/ɛ ɔ/ <ea oa>
/a ã/ <a an>
/aɪ ãɪ aʊ ãʊ/ <ai ain au aun>

Proto-Vuluka might allow for consonant clusters in onsets, but only have open syllables, so C(C)V.
I very much like the (at least orthographic) symmetry, so to speak, between the retroflex and uvular obstruents relative to their alveolar and velar counterparts. Hopefully that statement makes sense. The systems of nasal vowels and diphthongs are also beautiful. If it were up to me, I'd go with allowing onset clusters but no codas.
It does make sense, and that was the plan behind it [:)] What actually surprised me most about your commentary here was that you didn't point out the lack of phonemic nasal consonants [:P]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: d) Proto-Gdrenk
Spoiler:
/p(ʰ) t(ʰ) tʃ(ʰ) k(ʰ) q(ʰ)/ <p t č k q>
/b d dʒ g/ <b d ǰ g>
/p' t' tʃ' k' q'/ <p' t' č' k' q'>
/m n/ <m n>
/v s ʃ x/ <s š h>
/z ʒ ɣ/ <v z ž y>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i i: u u:/ <i í u ú>
/e e: o:/ <e é ó>
/a a:/ <a á>

Proto-Gdrenk will end up having the most complex syllable structure of these proto-languages, allowing for syllables with large clusters, (C)(C)(C)(C)(C)V(:)(C)(C) but there will be restrictions on what consonants can occur within clusters, which mean longer onset clusters will have a more or less predictable form, e.g. /ngdrj/ would be possible with /pmt'ks/ would not. I'll likely expand on this later.
Regarding the fricatives, was this the intended placement? I could certainly be wrong (edits are bolded again).

/s ʃ x/ <s š h>
/v z ʒ ɣ/ <v z ž y>

Anyway, I like the orthography, particularly the use of <y> for /ɣ/, the way the post-alveolar sibilants are represented, and the use of acute accents for long vowels. I'm also quite a fan of the optional(?) aspiration of the voiceless stops and the lack of a short /o/. I'm looking forward to seeing what you come up with in terms of further phonotactic restrictions.
Yep, that's me tripping up again (I'd originally planned on having no voiced fricatives, except /v/), so I'll need to edit that.

And yeah, at this stage, aspiration on the voiceless plosives is either going to be optional, or conditioned, I'm not sure which.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: e) Proto-Kalabi
Spoiler:
/t k/ <t k>
/b d/ <b d>
/n/ <n>
/h/ <h>
/l/ <l>

/i/ <í>
/ɪ/ <i>
/o/ <o>
/ɛ/ <e>
/a/ <a>

As well as having such a small phoneme inventory Proto-Kalabi also has a syllable structure of (C)V, making it the only proto-language I have so far that allows for a null-onset as well as vowel clusters.
Nice and small, relatively speaking! The stop inventory is wonderful, and I'm happy to see /h/ as the only fricative, along with /n l/ as the lone sonorants. The vowels are also lovely, and the language's relatively unusual (in-world) phonotactics make things even better. [:D] Are you planning on placing any further restrictions on vowel clusters?
So far, as far as restrictions on vowel clusters go, I'm not sure. I'd prefer to have none, but there'll probably be a limit of something like four vowels in a row in non-derived words.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: f) Proto-Feluo
Spoiler:
/p t c k/ <p t č k>
/m n/ <m n>
/ɸ s ç h/ <f s š h>
/v r j ʁ/ <v r j g>

/i y ɯ u/ <i ü ï u>
/e ø o/ <e ö o>
/æ ɑ/ <ä a>

Proto-Feluo will have a syllable structure of C(V)(C/V) with a fairly large number of diphthongs that can occur in open syllables.
It's awesome, in my opinion, to see letters like <č š> representing "true" palatals like /c ç/ here. The orthographic use of <g> also caught my eye, so to speak. The voiceless bilabial fricative (especially since it's "paired" with a voiced labiodental fricative) and the four "umlauted" vowels (both the letters themselves and the phonemes they represent) are also very cool! Any plans on which diphthongs will be allowed, and which won't?
Diphthongs might be subject to a kind of assimilation or vowel harmony (depending on how you want to look at it) being limited to vowels of the same frontness and rounding. So things like /ɯɑ/, /yø/ and /ei/ but not /ɯe/, /yo/ and /ey/.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: g) Proto-Mesit
Spoiler:
/p t ts tʃ k kx/ <p t c č k x>
/b d dz dʒ/ <b d ʒ ǯ>
/m n/ <m n>
/θ s ʃ x/ <θ s š h>
/v ð z ʒ ɣ/ <v ð z ž g>
/r l j/ <r l j>

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

Proto-Mesit will have a CV(C) syllable structure, as well as a system of vowel harmony, combining front-back harmony and height harmony, although I'm still working on the exact details but it will likely also relate to stress.
I like the representations of the voiced sibilant affricates, the voiceless velar affricate, essentially all the fricatives, and the schwa in particular! I'm very much looking forward to hearing more about this system of vowel harmony. [:D]
I always get a little stuck with the dental fricatives, but I thought here, just using their IPA equivalents made sense. I don't see them sticking around very long.


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: To go back to Proto-Gdrenk's consonant clusters, we find the following kinds:
Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Onset

      NR   NG   NRG
      FR   FG   FRG
      PR   PG   PRG
NP   NPR  NPG  NPRG
NPP NPPR NPPG NPPRG
FP   FPR  FPG  FPRG
FPP FPPR FPPG FPPRG

PP <pt pč kt kč qt qč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
FP <sp st sč sk sq> <šp št šč šk šq> <hp ht hč> + voiced and ejective counterparts
NP <mp nt nč nk nq> + voiced and ejective counterparts
The PP elements of FPP- and NPP-initial clusters are the same those noted above



Coda

Only NP, RP, FP and GP, RF, GF, RN and GN clusters are found in coda position



---------


P <p t č k q> <b d ǰ g> <p' t' č' k' q'>
N <m n>
F <s š h> <v z ž y>
R <r l>
G <v j>

<v> acts as a member of both G and F. It cannot appear before a plosive or another instance of <v>, but it can occur before one of <r l j rj lj>. Similarly, it can appear after one or <r l j> at the end of a syllable.


So, for example šrvals and ngdljénk would be valid syllables while jlads and tsó would not be.
Interesting! Regarding FP clusters, would the voiced counterparts of <sp st sč sk sq> <šp št šč šk šq> <hp ht hč> be <zb zd zǰ zg> <žb žd žǰ žg> <yb yd yǰ>? Would the ejective counterparts of the PP clusters <pt pč kt kč qt qč> be spelled <p't' p'č' k't' k'č' q't' q'č'> or <pt' pč' kt' kč' qt' qč'> or some other way? Would the ejective counterpart of a, for example, NPRG cluster like <nčrj> be romanized something like <nč'rj>?

I have a feeling I had other questions that I'm forgetting to ask, so my apologies if they suddenly come to me later and I ask them then. I like how /v/ can be a member of two groups, so to speak, in terms of phonotactics; are there any particular reasons for this "quirkiness"?
Yep, those would be the voiced counterparts, and for the moment something like <p't'> (and <nč'rj>, to answer that question) would represent an ejective plosive cluster.

As for what's going on with /v/, I'm thinking this is the result of some old merger between *v and *w (with a corresponding *f merging in with /x/ or something). I'm not too sure though but I liked the idea and stuck with it either way [:)]


shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote: And to go back to Proto-Mesit's vowel harmony:
Spoiler:
Proto-Mesit has the following vowels:

/i u/ <i u>
/ə/ <ë>
/e o/ <e o>
/a/ <a>

These fall into several classes, the first based on frontness:

Front: <i e>
Neutral: <ë a>
Back: <u o>

And the second based on height:

High: <i ë u>
Low: <e a o>

Primary stress is placed on the final syllable of the root (whether original or derived), unless the preceding syllable is heavy. This stressed vowel then determines whether following or preceding non-neutral vowels throughout the entire word are either front or back.

Secondary stress is placed on each odd numbered syllable from the start of the word, except when adjacent to a syllable carrying primary stress. Syllables carrying secondary stress determine the height of vowel only in the unstressed syllable(s) immediately preceding it.

So let's take two nonsense examples /na.ði/ and /tʃor.ti/. In the former, the final syllable is stressed while in the latter, the penultimate syllable is stress giving /naˈði/ and /ˈtʃor.ti/. Now, since stressed syllables control the height of preceding unstressed vowels, /naˈði/ must be [nəˈði]. Similarly, the syllable carrying primary stress determines the frontness of all syllables within a given word, meaning /ˈtʃor.ti/ must become [ˈtʃor.tu] in order to conform to these rules.

Now let's say we wanted to add an inflectional suffix -/mo/ to each word, giving us [nəˈði.mo] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Again, primary stressed syllables determine frontness of all vowels, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tu.mo]. Seconday stress is placed on even syllables except when adjacent to primary stress, leading to [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.tuˌmo], and since stressed vowels also determine the height of preceding unstressed vowels, we get [nəˈði.me] and [ˈtʃor.toˌmo] as the final result.

If, however, -/mo/ had been a derivational suffix, giving /na.ði.mo/ and /tʃor.ti.mo/ instead, then the resulting roots would have been [ˌna.ðoˈmo] and [ˌtʃor.toˈmo].

As you can see, derivational affixes have the potential to shift whether a root contains back (and neutral) vowels or front (and neutral) vowels while inflectional affixes have their frontness determined by the root.
Wow, I love this! It's a very creative and well thought-out system. It's cool how stress plays in, how there are two "kinds" of vowel harmony, and how derivational affixes differ from inflectional ones. I look forward to seeing this system "in action", so to speak, in the future! [:D]

If you don't mind my asking, though, could you further explain the placement of secondary stress, using longer example words, if possible?
Looking at it, it's probably easier to start with secondary stress placement first and then primary stress placement, so:


1) Secondary stress is placed regularly on odd numbered syllables moving from left to right through the word, e.g.

/na.ði.mo/ > [ˌna.ðiˌmo] (/mo/ is part of the root)
/tʃor.ti-mo/ > [ˌtʃor.ti-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)
/ri.si.-mo/ > [ˌri.si-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)

2a) Primary stress is placed on the final syllable of the root (formed of a stem and any derivational morphemes)...
2b) ... unless the penultimate syllable of the root is heavy, in which case stress in placed on the penultimate syllable

[ˌna.ðiˌmo] > [ˌna.ðiˈmo]
[ˌtʃor.ti-ˌmo] > [ˈtʃor.ti-ˌmo]
[ˌri.si-ˌmo] > [ˌriˈsi-ˌmo]

3) Syllables carrying secondary stress that are adjacent to the syllable carrying primary stress become unstressed:

[ˌna.ðiˈmo] > [ˌna.ðiˈmo]
[ˈtʃor.ti-ˌmo] > [ˈtʃor.ti-ˌmo]
[ˌriˈsi-ˌmo] > [ˌriˈsi-mo]

4) The syllable carrying primary stress causing all non-neutral vowels to match in frontness:

[ˌna.ðiˈmo] > [ˌna.ðuˈmo]
[ˈtʃor.ti-ˌmo] > [ˈtʃor.tu-ˌmo]
[ˌriˈsi-mo] > [riˈsi-me]

5) Syllables carrying stress, either primary or secondary, cause immediately preceding unstressed vowels to match in height:

[ˌna.ðuˈmo] > [ˌna.ðoˈmo]
[ˈtʃor.tu-ˌmo] > [ˈtʃor.to-ˌmo]
[riˈsi-me] > [riˈsi-me]


And I hope that helps at least a bit. I have no idea how this will play out when I actually expand on Proto-Mesit, or how it will transfer down into any daughter languages, but either way, at least this time I'm not just ripping of Finnish's vowel harmony [:P]



On a side note, that may have bee my most quote-in-quote-filled reply during my time on the CBB, especially talking about different conlangs.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 01:57

sangi39 wrote:As for the "isolate" idea, I'm hoping it will make sense once I start filling out those areas of the map a bit more. The general idea is that since Proto-Vuluka, the languages have spread out in waves, with these waves occurring multiple times over the course of history, with each successive wave spreading one particular language out quite far, wiping out surrounding languages, settling in, changing as speakers lose contact with each other with some other language then spreading out, repeating the process.
That makes sense to me. [:)]
sangi39 wrote:As for languages that inspired the phonology? Some of the Athabaskan languages inspired the consonant inventory. As for the vowels, I think that was a mix of Athabaskan and possibly South-East Asian, but I'm not too sure.
Ahh, cool! I definitely got an Athabaskan-type feeling from the consonants. For the vowels, though, I was more torn on whether to guess they were inspired by some of the languages of SE Asia, as you mentioned, or by some Oto-Manguean languages (probably because of the central high unrounded vowel, really).
sangi39 wrote:What actually surprised me most about your commentary here was that you didn't point out the lack of phonemic nasal consonants [:P]
[xP] Ahh, you're right, I didn't say anything about that! Haha, I guess I was distracted by all those nasal vowels!
sangi39 wrote:So far, as far as restrictions on vowel clusters go, I'm not sure. I'd prefer to have none, but there'll probably be a limit of something like four vowels in a row in non-derived words.
Oh, that's an interesting point; I hadn't even thought about the potential sizes of clusters! I was mainly wondering if any of the vowel qualities would be "incompatible", so to speak.
sangi39 wrote:1) Secondary stress is placed regularly on odd numbered syllables moving from left to right through the word, e.g.

/na.ði.mo/ > [ˌna.ðiˌmo] (/mo/ is part of the root)
/tʃor.ti-mo/ > [ˌtʃor.ti-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)
/ri.si.-mo/ > [ˌri.si-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)
Is one of these supposed to read "(/mo/ is a derivational affix)"?

But anyway, thank you for all of your explanations once again! [:D]
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 21 Jul 2015, 02:20

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:1) Secondary stress is placed regularly on odd numbered syllables moving from left to right through the word, e.g.

/na.ði.mo/ > [ˌna.ðiˌmo] (/mo/ is part of the root)
/tʃor.ti-mo/ > [ˌtʃor.ti-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)
/ri.si.-mo/ > [ˌri.si-ˌmo] (/mo/ is an inflectional affix)
Is one of these supposed to read "(/mo/ is a derivational affix)"?

But anyway, thank you for all of your explanations once again! [:D]
Either or really. As I mentioned in 2a a "root" is defined as a "stem" plus any derivational affixes that might be attached to it (similar to PIE in this sense).

What I will try to do when I start working on Proto-Mesit in more depth, is present the stem in bold, with derivational affixes indicated with "+" (the entire root will then appear in italics) and inflectional affixes indicated with "-". So, for example, naði+mo (where /mo/ is a derivational affix) vs. naði-mo (where /mo/ is an inflectional affix). As with Proto-Skawlas, the glossing could get somewhat complicated, but I'm planning on using the romanisation almost entirely (which I'm looking to do with Skawlas as well in the near future since at the moment I'm still using IPA in some areas alongside the romanisation). So, just as an example:

naðomot
naði+mo-t
father-AUG-PL
"grandfathers"

I get the feeling that I'll only mark primary stress, possibly with an acute accent (if at all), since generally speaking, secondary stress is much more predictable and for the most part I think it would be unnecessary to mark it (plus, it'd just look bleh)
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Tue 28 Jul 2015, 02:48

And then just to bring everything together from the Proto-Sirdic, Proto-Skawlas and Lesi Kirra vocabulary I worked on today, here they are in one table:

Code: Select all

   English   Sirdic     Skawlas   Lesi Kirra
 1 woman     bosos      dëkru     p'ííhe     
 2 man       kumpar     hjanḍë    gíyo       
 3 human     tulwer     rëqis     gíyo       
                        lëdas     
 4 child     saljewar   spraq     nyííte     
                        dëkru     
 5 wife      ketalus    pëgjir    p'ííhe     
 6 husband   kumpar     hjanḍë    gíyo       
                        bankë     
 7 mother    nigosus    dëkli     kééxi      
 8 father    iwlirar    dëkab     t'únyu     
                               
 9 animal    jo'as      spëṣiḍ    yúga/rága  
10 fish      risos      giḍkë     súma       
11 bird      hi'tolor   pëḍli     p'íla      
12 dog       hugonar    ṭwëdrum   yééxa      
13 louse     karto      bëpun     nyúúnya    
14 snake     tujroror   taqdë     māāne      
15 worm      mitu       dlëkaj    māāne      
                                          
16 tree      mi'jum     bwëga     yúúk'i     
17 forest    hetuj      qeqlin    tíco       
18 stick     loje'er    brëskis   dút'a      
19 fruit     derrir     ṭëḍuw     cása       
             kuguw  	
20 seed      denner     ṭrëbi     t'úrri     
21 leaf      lenkar     ginskë    sííku      
22 root      śeras      mëkul     nyāse      
23 bark      tinas      sṭwëḍum   k'újo      
24 flower    panjer     brëja     sāri       
25 grass     gemas      qëkiq     yóki       
26 rope      lohuwor    sḍwëḍar   nééra      
                                         
27 skin      śu'tirer   ḍlëṭi     dényo      
28 meat      bannus     sgrëṭi    páása      
29 blood     doldir     drantë    jáxxa      
30 bone      do'soror   wuqṭë     k'ākke     
31 fat       bo'dijes   ṣirṭë     cúppu      
                                         
32 egg       tojwes     blëpa     léép'u     
33 horn      lisbur     ḍëgaw     kéyä       
34 tail      sudanor    qësaq     pít'u      
35 feather   beśomor    hësga     gāānyi     
36 hair      butew      tlalgë    k'ócu      
             welsar   	
                                     
37 head      śujko'or   gumrë     wúse       
38 ear       dośśus     ḍjëmag    jódu       
39 eye       londonus   lëstur    géci       
40 nose      gumus      hrëkam    núse       
41 mouth     sesos      drëtum    jéna       
42 tooth     tomber     sdëḍin    náci       
43 tongue    hujpar     pjinqë    wórre      
44 nail      dijkarus   gësdur    c'ííqe     
45 foot      gorkena    ṣrildë    hāāk'u     
46 leg       gorkena    dësbu     cááno      
47 knee      śahos      ḍiqtë     móxo       
48 hand      hutula     dëkar     c'ányo     
             wontus  	
49 wing      pajjir     mënim     kíla       
50 belly     jarus      duhpë     p'úútä     
51 guts      pittor     dimsë     tāyu       
52 neck      mesomor    sëski     k'éjä      
53 back      helgajar   sbujkë    wéélu      
54 breast    palle'es   ṭëgra     békä       
55 heart     gendunor   bëduq     c'óónu     
56 liver     puroror    ṭuḍḍë     hārre      
                                   
57 sun       regges     tësgun    gúse       
58 moon      śogunus    biwjë     gāce       
59 star      meda       gahdë     jáálu      
                                                                           				
60 water     su''os     dlëtar    kááwä      
61 rain      rokkunos   rënra     rúwa       
62 river     miduros    shëkru    c'úllä     
63 lake      budumos    ḍijdë     qóóxo      
64 sea       śikoros    nëhlud    dági       
                                    
65 salt      didi       druq      gāāne      
66 stone     jeslun     hëṭir     cāppe      
67 sand      doli       hwḷkah    nééli      
68 dust      gajjen     dankë     lāqu       
69 earth     sirre      sdëpir    bóóyu      
70 mountain  monal      hëḍrus    yúnä       
71 road      nigu       rëska     k'úlli     
                                      
72 cloud     siwtur     hëdid     nííp'o     
73 fog       śu'onor    gëblur    gáki       
74 sky       dolunor    sḍëtan    xíít'ä     
75 wind      tunnamor   gëṭja     téppu      
76 snow      nojur      ḍëpli     gát'o      
77 ice       punas      pësmi     dāce       
                                       
78 smoke     rejbosor   gësru     sáccä      
79 fire      kipejer    sjëqa     wúsu       
80 ash       śa'me      palṣë     tākko      
                                        
81 red       mośi-      rëbju     dáya       
82 green     girdun-    ṭëṣur     mííkä      
83 yellow    gurne-     wëmin     t'ího      
84 white     tagu-      tësnu     k'úúwa     
85 black     atus-      ṣlërah    dééro      
                                       
86 night     biltis     klëda     méxo       
87 day       ma'jijer   rudtë     dóyä       
88 year      tijka      dësga     xényu      

I've only included the agentive singular, nominative singular and specific word forms from Proto-Sirdic, Proto-Skawlas and Lesi Kirra respectively, just to keep the table a bit smaller [:)]
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 16:22

And grouping all of the verbs together from Proto-Sirdic, Proto-Skawlas and Lesi Kirra, again only showing base forms:

Code: Select all

      English   Sirdic    Skawlan     Lesi Kirra
 1 to drink     pago      ḍlu.tam     lääxu
 2 to eat       monil     sṭa.nu      maapo
 3 to bite      korra     ṭruq.ni     husu
 4 to suck      ronśum    ḍli.ruj     bibä
 5 to spit      mimbuw    ṭu.ras      k'eequ
 6 to vomit     halum     pa.mud      käci
 7 to blow      hisil     sa.qim      xoyu
 8 to breathe   jijjo     bru.tu      gowa
 9 to laugh     dormil    ti.kun      källa
10 to see       tiddu     la.tru      k'äqä
11 to hear      upi       sta.ṭan     heju
12 to know      li'mer    bja.su      t'ussu
13 to think     muj'a     lu.dlu      rumi
14 to smell     jornos    la.wuw      p'äkki
15 to fear      runde     smi.ḍah     c'iwu
16 to sleep     molha     du.mra      wesa
17 to live      gagi      tu.ṭji      winye
18 to die       roso      da.klal     suuwo
19 to kill      tukul     pi.sgla     xat'o
20 to fight     lowge     nwa.ṭu      c'että
21 to hunt      siśśi     ka.sṭuj     lexo
22 to hit       sujga     gu.dir      wappa
23 to cut       morhe     ṭu.las      c'ääsi
24 to split     kahil     gji.ku      birru
25 to stab      tuwil     sdi.hra     nyakka
26 to scratch   gehe      sṭa.baḍ     nuut'e
27 to dig       lawwer    bi.twa      caap'a
28 to swim      galnah    li.ḍin      dukä
29 to fly       rartus    ḍu.sduh     täje
30 to walk      paldo     ṭi.sṭis     tuku
31 to come      kewu'     shu.wa      bisso
32 to lie down  naha'     ki.lul      jaaxo
33 to sit       lirśur    pa.pal      kela
34 to stand     ha'on     sda.wun     cuyu
35 to turn      palmu     ṭu.ṣir      puumu
36 to fall      dogo      da.bum      cepu
37 to give      hulna     sbi.sim     t'ik'e
38 to hold      dinde'    hlu.pu      piikä
39 to squeeze   sikim     ju.ṭaj      mässu
40 to rub       kollu'    man.ma      määxu
41 to wash      mebo      kwu.li      siinya
42 to wipe      kilpes    sdja.hja    nyoqa
43 to pull      derda     ba.ṭum      kudä
44 to push      rehu      kud.ku      jibä
45 to throw     kiwte     wu.bla      xaki
46 to tie       sorjan    ṭar.ni      riilu
47 to sew       nustem    bu.kjin     räku
48 to count     tempi     du.tun      däya
49 to say       suran     da.gjal     nyekkä
50 to sing      hurre     sha.du      nyipu
51 to play      wesun     la.snah     lirä
52 to float     hiwri     pi.ruj      gaju
53 to flow      sanla     nu.sbur     cillo
54 to freeze    kanem     ṭi.plin     däka
55 to swell     risti     ma.slih     pohä
56 to burn      ki'am     qu.stwa     riga
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 29 Jul 2015, 18:30

[+1] These all look cool, as usual! Good luck classifying the verbs and deciding which forms to show.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Sun 09 Aug 2015, 15:43

Going through another busy period at work again, so I've not been able to do as much conlanging as I wanted (basically nothing since the end of July), but I thought I'd throw together some very basic stuff to do with the "minor" conlangs of Yantas mostly to do with morphology, syntax, morphosyntactic alignment, etc.

Proto-Tl'arga

Proto-Tl'arga will, I think, have an SVO word-order, be split-ergative, both morphologically and syntactically, and be somewhat fusional or agglutinative, relying more on auxiliaries and particles than conjugating verbs directly and declining nouns.



Proto-Sjikan

Proto-Sjikan will have an SOV word-order and be somewhat split-ergative (morphologically), but only to a fairly limited extent. It would be agglutinative, I think, especially on verbs, in a similar way to Proto-Skawlas, where nouns have fairly minimal morphology but verbs take a large number of morphemes appearing in set slots.

Proto-Sjikan might have a number of different noun classes, perhaps three or four, possibly based on animacy, but how they'll show up, I don't know yet.



Proto-Vuluka

Proto-Vuluka would be SVO I think, plainly nom-acc, so moving north to south, this would be the first conlang that doesn't do something weird with its alignment. It will be somewhat inflectional on verbs, but would rely more heavily on syntax and particles to convey grammatical information.

Like Proto-Sjikan, though, it would still have a number of noun classes, which will likely affect verbal conjugation, in a similar manner to Proto-Sirdic, but the number of noun classes might be somewhat higher, possibly around about 8.



Proto-Gdrenk

I wanted Proto-Gdrenk to go in the opposite direction with morphology, being quite inflectional, possibly agglutinative, in relation to nouns (encoding for number, case and whether the noun is possessed or not), but with minimal marking on verbs (possibly just direction or manner and possibly person). Like Proto-Vuluka, it would be nom-acc and SVO. There wouldn't be much in the way of noun classes, though, possibly none. This, as well, is where I also want to try out noun-incorporation.



Proto-Kalabi

Proto-Kalabi would be predominantly isolating, relying a lot on word order (SVO), and would be split-ergative in some respects. Like Lesi Kirra, there would be some kind of noun class system, but this might behave more like the classifiers of Japanese and the Chinese languages.



Proto-Feluo

Proto-Feluo will be SOV and heavily agglutinative, although there may be some affixes which indicate more than one piece of grammatical information, e.g. definiteness and number. Like the other languages of Sirden so far mentioned, it will be predominantly nom-acc and might have a few noun classes.



Proto-Mesit

Proto-Mesit, as mentioned in previous posts, will likely be agglutinative and subject to vowel harmony. It will be SVO and nom-acc. Verbs will be more heavily inflected than nouns, but nouns will take a fair degree of marking too.





What I want to do, really, is working on these kind of sporadically, mostly between the "major" language families of Yantas, and on an even lower level, I may try to throw in a few more minor language families, just to fill out the map a bit more. I'm aiming for around 50-60 language families spoken at around 1AD, some over huge areas, some language isolates spoken in a small area.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: The Languages of Yantas

Post by sangi39 » Sun 09 Aug 2015, 16:27

So something a bit like this:

Image
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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