Silvish

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MrKrov
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Re: Silvish

Post by MrKrov » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 02:36

The innovation of new genders without involving any classifiers is always neat.
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Silvish

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 03:03

I say yay. I can't think of a single romance language that's created more genders and I think that'd be a pretty cool and unique distinction to work into play.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Aszev » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 11:12

Dormouse559 wrote:But the nouns that lost the accusative in Silvish are all human nouns or personal names. As a result, they're more likely to be subjects, and it's marked for them to not be. Considering that, I chose to have the marked case, the oblique, fill the role of the lost accusative. As a result, this set of nouns has nominative-accusative alignment.
Something similar happened in Swedish. When the case system collapsed, Central, Northern and Estern Swedish dialects generalized the accusative ending of old weak nouns. But many words were exempt, and these are usually animate, masculine, or otherwise prominent as subjects. So you'd get e.g. tima 'hour' and gato 'street' (< tími, gata, obl. tíma, gatu) but oxe 'ox' and bonde 'farmer' (< oxi, bóndi).

In written Early Modern Swedish, there was a lot of confusion regarding these words (in particular the weak masculines) since the dialects above had a lot of influence. When the situation stabilized in the 18th century, the result was that most words kept the old nominative ending, but that a significant subset of words primarily denoting abstract things changed to the old accusative ending (other factors that probably played a role is low plural frequency and object preference). So in modern Swedish you have words ending in -e, such as mage 'stomach', hare 'hare', måne 'moon', lie 'scythe', buske 'bush', and you have words ending in -a, such as hetta 'heat', timma 'hour', låga 'flame', vilja 'desire' and blomma 'flower', all of whom originally belonged to the same declension.
Sound change works in mysterious ways.

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Dormouse559
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 01:49

MrKrov wrote:The innovation of new genders without involving any classifiers is always neat.
All4Ɇn wrote:I say yay. I can't think of a single romance language that's created more genders and I think that'd be a pretty cool and unique distinction to work into play.
Cool! I'm glad you like it. I'm still working out the implications of new genders, so we'll see if anything interesting comes of it.
Aszev wrote:Something similar happened in Swedish. ...
I didn't know about that. It's always great knowing there's some precedent for what you're doing. Swedish looks like a mirror image of Silvish in terms of the case that ended up favored (nominative over accusative in Swedish, accusative over nominative in Silvish).
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 05:41

All4Ɇn wrote:I say yay. I can't think of a single romance language that's created more genders and I think that'd be a pretty cool and unique distinction to work into play.
*loudly points at Learran* I beat him by only 7 hours.
Then again, it's not being analogized to the adjective system.

Anyways, I would vote nay on an issue like this, as a devil's advocate. Here are some issues that might arise.
1) this would become more of class system arguably.
2) You would need to analogize this change to the pronominal system.
3) I can't think of anything else, so if you're okay with this, then go forward!
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Dormouse559
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 06:34

qwed117 wrote:*loudly points at Learran* I beat him by only 7 hours.
Then again, it's not being analogized to the adjective system.
*Loudly points at Silvish* I published first. [:P]
Well, great minds and all that.
qwed117 wrote:Anyways, I would vote nay on an issue like this, as a devil's advocate. Here are some issues that might arise.
1) this would become more of class system arguably.
2) You would need to analogize this change to the pronominal system.
3) I can't think of anything else, so if you're okay with this, then go forward!
1) I'm not convinced there's a useful distinction to be made between "class" and "gender". I use "gender" to refer to all such systems. If you mean animacy would be involved, there are flavors of that, but so far, only a few nouns have gotten into the human-associated group, and there are many apparently arbitrary exclusions (e.g. "painter" is in, "sculptor" is out). To a certain extent, whether a noun gets in is a quirk of etymology. I could definitely see animacy catching on in an in-world future version of the language.

2) I don't think so. Romance pronouns have generally resisted losing case distinctions, and there's no reason Silvish should be any different.
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 14:28

Dormouse559 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
2) I don't think so. Romance pronouns have generally resisted losing case distinctions, and there's no reason Silvish should be any different.
I mean that you'll have to make new genders in your 3rd person pronouns, to match it. Thats unless you want them to be fossilized in their VL forms. You'll also have to do the same to the articles.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 26 Mar 2017, 16:58

I don't understand why I have to. I was planning on getting the articles in on this, but gender agreement doesn't have to be thoroughgoing. And remember that these genders only emerge from which of three cases is contrasted. In order to create agreement in the pronouns through analogy, I'd have to make it impossible to replace most nouns with the nominative third person pronoun.
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All4Ɇn
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Re: Silvish

Post by All4Ɇn » Mon 27 Mar 2017, 02:36

Dormouse559 wrote:I don't understand why I have to. I was planning on getting the articles in on this, but gender agreement doesn't have to be thoroughgoing. And remember that these genders only emerge from which of three cases is contrasted. In order to create agreement in the pronouns through analogy, I'd have to make it impossible to replace most nouns with the nominative third person pronoun.
I think German's Mädchen is the perfect example of why it's not necessary to do it. Even though it's a neuter noun it's typically referred to with feminine pronouns as it refers to females. Given that the nouns contrasted refer to people, I see no reason why users wouldn't just group them with the masculine and feminine pronouns corresponding to the gender of who it refers to
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Wed 05 Jul 2017, 05:41

I dunno if you're still taking suggestions for translational topics, but I'd like to suggest articles of clothing, and other objects associated with dressing.
Spoiler:
Something like
- shirt
- cap/hat
- coat
- pant
- undergarment
- earring
- necklace
- bracelet
- watch
- mirror
- dresser
- comb
- tie
- glasses/contacts/nez pirce/monocle
- t-shirt
- polo
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Dormouse559
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 05 Jul 2017, 07:07

Sure! I did a clothing post earlier, and it's become quite outdated. I'll bring that up to date and add your terms in. Will let you know when I'm done. [:)]
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 00:39

It's my five-year anniversary on the CBB. :mrgreen: And as it happens, my reworked Silvish is starting to really flesh out, so I translated the UDHR to show what I'm working on.


La Decclarachò universelle deu·d drèt d'l'Ò
Touz le·z ettre umànt nesse libèrt e evvòt pa çou qui en l'e·d deuvi dignetæy e deu·d dræti. Li·z on d'ræzò e de conchanche e don·t ajî, le·z en-i aveû le·z ötri, aveû en-i eppriti de fraternetæ.

[la.dɛk.kla.ʁəˈɕo y.nivɛˈsɛl.lə dœˈdʁɛt ˈdlo]
[tu.zləˈzɛt.tʁə yˈmɑ̃t ˈnɛs.sə liˈbɛʁt e.ɛˈvɔt pa.su.kjɛ̃.lɛd.dø.vi.di.ɲəˈtɛː.ji e.dœˈdʁɛː.ti | li.zɔ̃.dʁɛˈzo e.de.kɔ̃ˈɕɑ.ɕə e.dɔ̃.təˈʑiː | ləˈzẽ.i əˈvøː ləˈzøː.tʁi | əˈvøː ẽ.jɛˈpʁi.ti de.fʁa.tɛʁ.nəˈtɛː]

DEF-F declaration universal-F of-DEF.PL right-PL of=DEF=man
all-PL.M.WK DEF-PL being human-PL.M.WK be_born-3PL free-PL.M.WK and equal-PL.M.WK for PRO REL-NOM PRO be.3SG of-DEF-OBL dignity-OBL and of-DEF-PL.OBL right-PL.OBL. 3PL.NOM have.3PL PART=reason and PART conscience and must-3PL act-INF DEF-PL one-PL.OBL with DEF-PL other-PL.OBL with INDEF-OBL.M.WK spirit-OBL of brotherhood
* WK = "weak" or non-human-associated gender


The Universal Declaration of Human Rights
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.



Here are some of the changes I've made:
  • The orthography is much more straightforward; silent consonants are gone. There are still some complications, but generally each letter has an impact on pronunciation, even if it doesn't have its prototypical value.
  • Both vowel and consonant length are phonemic.
  • I've become conscious of my fascination with vowel and consonant gradation, so I'm refining that aspect of the language with more intention.
    • Ablaut is still a productive process, though there are a lot more words where the distinction has been neutralized.
    • Emergent consonants are also still productive, but I've made them more systematic, and there are additionally some brand-new final consonants that change in declension and liaison (e.g. goùs [ˈgus] -> goutti [ˈgut.ti]).
    • Certain words and morphemes now trigger the doubling of a following consonant (from UDHR: l'e [le] + deuvi [dø.vi] = l'e·d deuvi [lɛd.dø.vi]).
  • The "complexes" (see 3.2.2.2 of the first post for my old description) that delimit all these gradation effects are now based on stress rather than grammar. A complex always ends on either a stressed syllable or on the unstressed syllable immediately following a stressed syllable. In turn, however, stress assignment does rely on grammar somewhat.
There are still a bunch of decisions left to make, but I think the biggest one is how to represent /kw/, and how to represent /k/ and /g/ before <i> and <e>. Currently, I use <qu> for /kw/ and <ch> and <gh> for /k/ and /g/. But I'm considering a more French-like system of <cou>, <qu> and <gu>. Which do you like better?

P.S. Sorry I never got to giving you the updated clothing terms, qwed. I think the overhaul kicked into high gear not long after you asked about them. I'll try to get to those soon. :)
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Re: Silvish

Post by Lao Kou » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:59

Dormouse559
It's my five-year anniversary on the CBB. :mrgreen:
Joyeux anniversaire! [:D]
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名
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Dormouse559
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 08:37

Lao Kou wrote:
Sat 11 Nov 2017, 03:59
Dormouse559
It's my five-year anniversary on the CBB. :mrgreen:
Joyeux anniversaire! [:D]
Merci ! [:3]
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 01 Dec 2017, 10:02

qwed117 wrote:
Wed 05 Jul 2017, 05:41
I dunno if you're still taking suggestions for translational topics, but I'd like to suggest articles of clothing, and other objects associated with dressing.
I finally got that clothing post updated for you. You should find the current versions of the vocabulary that was already there, plus the words from your list I hadn't translated yet. [:)] I seem to have lost the etymology of bogne, though. :S

If there are other topics someone is interested in seeing, I'd be glad to work on those.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 08:07

So while I work on the language, I'll go through and update the vocabulary posts. Here's the first one, all shiny and new. It's on basic conversation; if there are other phrases you'd like me to add, let me know. [:D]

In other news, I've settled on the French-like spellings I mentioned a couple posts back (<cou> /kw/, <qu gu> /k g/ before <i e>).

And in still other news, I've decided what to call the innovated genders. The gender with a distinct nominative shall henceforth be known as "noble" (or noblou in Silvish), and the gender with a distinct oblique as "common" (commè). The reasoning being that nearly all nouns for members of the nobility and royalty ended up in the former gender, and some kiss-up grammarian couldn't resist a bit of flattery. [:P]
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