Silvish

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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 02:20

Alright, here are Silvish sentences followed by some of the Romance languages I'm referencing most. NB: The Occitan and Italian are approximate.

U gzat ét súr'le tóle. [ʊ ˈdʑa.t‿ɪ ˈsuː.ɾlə ˈtoː.lə] - Silvish
Le chat est sur la table. /lə ʃa ɛ syʁ la tabl/ - French
Il gatto è sulla tavola. /il ˈgat.to ˈɛ ˈsul.la ˈta.vo.la/ - Italian
Lo chat es sus la taula. /lu ˈtʃat ˈes ˈsys la ˈtaw.la/ - Occitan (Vivaro-Alpine dialect)
The cat is on the table. - English

L'enfánt á rativa-mint cos. [lãˈfãˈt‿ɛ raˈteː.va ˈmẽ ˈkɔ] - Silvish
L'enfant a rapidement couru. /lɑ̃.fɑ̃ a ʁa.pid.mɑ̃ ku.ʁy/ - French
Il bambino è corso rapidamente. /il bamˈbi.no ˈɛ ˈkɔɾ.so ra.pi.daˈmen.te/ - Italian
Lo dròlle a corregut rapidament. /lu ˈdɾɔl.le ˈa kur.reˈgy ra.pi.daˈmeⁿ/ - Occitan
The child ran quickly. - English

Nos sons annáds a li parghi. [nʊ‿ˈsõː.z‿aˈnɛː a lɪ ˈpaːɾ.gɪ] - Silvish
Nous sommes allés au parc. /nu sɔm.z‿a.le o paʁk/ - French
Siamo andati al parco. /ˈsja.mo anˈda.ti al ˈpar.ko/ - Italian
Sèm anats au pargue. /ˈsɛⁿ aˈna aw ˈpaɾ.ge/ - Occitan
We went to the park. - English

Gzo vési cauca poczúnis ruógis ens l'au. [dʑɔ ˈve.zɪ ˈkao̯.ka pɔˈɕuː.ŋʊ‿ˈro̯ɑː.dʑɪ ãˈs‿laːo̯] - Silvish
Je vois quelques poissons rouges dans l'eau. /ʒ‿vwa kɛl.kə pwa.sɔ̃ ʁuʒ dɑ̃ lo/ - French
Vedo qualche pesci rossi nell'acqua. /ˈve.do ˈkwal.ke ˈpe.ʃi ˈros.si ˈnelˈlak.kwa/ - Italian
Vesi quauques peisses roges dins l'aiga. /ˈve.zi ˈkwaw.ke ˈpej.se ˈru.dʒe ˈdiⁿ ˈlaj.ga/ - Occitan
I see some goldfish in the water. - English


EDIT: The process that generalized ablaut has sometimes made Silvish words look less similar to their Romance cognates. For example, if it hadn't been regularized, ruoge [ˈruː.dʑə] "red" wouldn't even experience ablaut. But through analogy, it gets the rather drastic /u/ > /o̯ɑ/ change in several forms.
Last edited by Dormouse559 on Tue 09 Aug 2016, 18:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silvish

Post by IEPH » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 15:30

I wonder if you can translate the lyrics to "Let it Go" in Silvish.
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Re: Silvish

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 15:41

Dormouse559 wrote:Alright, here are Silvish sentences followed by some of the Romance languages I'm referencing most. NB: The Occitan and Italian are approximate.
Spoiler:
U gzat ét súr'le tóle. [ʊ ˈdʑa.t‿ɪ ˈsuː.ɾlə ˈtoː.lə] - Silvish
Le chat est sur la table. /lə ʃa ɛ syʁ la tabl/ - French
Il gatto è sulla tavola. /il ˈgat.to ˈɛ ˈsul.la ˈta.vo.la/ - Italian
Lo chat es sus la taula. /lu ˈtʃat ˈes ˈsys la ˈtaw.la/ - Occitan (Vivaro-Alpine dialect)
The cat is on the table. - English

L'enfánt á rativa-mint cos. [lãˈfãˈt‿ɛ raˈteː.va ˈmẽ ˈkɔ] - Silvish
L'enfant a rapidement couru. /lɑ̃.fɑ̃ a ʁa.pid.mɑ̃ ku.ʁy/ - French
Il bambino è corso rapidamente. /il bamˈbi.no ˈɛ ˈkɔɾ.so ra.pi.daˈmen.te/ - Italian
Lo dròlle a corregut rapidament. /lu ˈdɾɔl.le ˈa kur.reˈgy ra.pi.daˈmeⁿ/ - Occitan
The child ran quickly. - English

Nos sons annáds a li parghi. [nʊ‿ˈsõː.z‿aˈnɛː a lɪ ˈpaːɾ.gɪ] - Silvish
Nous sommes allés au parc. /nu sɔm.z‿a.le o paʁk/ - French
Siamo andati al parco. /ˈsja.mo anˈda.ti al ˈpar.ko/ - Italian
Sèm anats au pargue. /ˈsɛⁿ aˈnats aw ˈpaɾ.ge/ - Occitan
We went to the park. - English

Gzo vési cauca poczúnis ruógis ens l'au. [dʑɔ ˈve.zɪ ˈkao̯.ka pɔˈɕuː.ŋʊ‿ˈro̯ɑː.dʑɪ ãˈs‿laːo̯] - Silvish
Je vois quelques poissons rouges dans l'eau. /ʒ‿vwa kɛl.kə pwa.sɔ̃ ʁuʒ dɑ̃ lo/ - French
Vedo qualche pesci rossi nell'acqua. /ˈve.do ˈkwal.ke ˈpe.ʃi ˈros.si ˈnelˈlak.kwa/ - Italian
Vesi quauques peisses roges dins l'aiga. /ˈve.zi ˈkwaw.ke ˈpej.ses ˈru.dʒes ˈdiⁿ ˈlaj.ga/ - Occitan
I see some goldfish in the water. - English

EDIT: The process that generalized ablaut has sometimes made Silvish words look less similar to their Romance cognates. For example, if it hadn't been regularized, ruoge [ˈruː.dʑə] "red" wouldn't even experience ablaut. But through analogy, it gets the rather drastic /u/ > /o̯ɑ/ change in several forms.
Excellent work, as always! It's fascinating to be able to compare the sentences in the four languages, and to try pronouncing them. If you have the time and are interested in doing so, could you perhaps translate this sentence into Silvish?
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 18:11

Certainly. As it happens, I was looking for that sentence but couldn't find it.

Essa ferma simpre le fennáutre avent de sopâ.
[ˈɛ.sa ˈfɛːɾ.ma ˈsẽ.pɾə lə fəˈnɛo̯.tɾə aˈvã də sɔˈpɛː]
She always closes the window before she dines.
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Re: Silvish

Post by IEPH » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 20:31

What about my little request?
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 07 Aug 2016, 23:23

I'm afraid it's not that little. I haven't considered Silvish poetry yet. So my answer is the same as last time.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Ælfwine » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 02:00

Brilliant, Dormouse. It's obvious when comparing Silvish to other romance languages that it is quite unique, but still shares similarities with it's neighbors.
The worst thing you can do to an idea is forget about it.
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Re: Silvish

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 02:03

Dormouse559 wrote:Certainly. As it happens, I was looking for that sentence but couldn't find it.

Essa ferma simpre le fennáutre avent de sopâ.
[ˈɛ.sa ˈfɛːɾ.ma ˈsẽ.pɾə lə fəˈnɛo̯.tɾə aˈvã də sɔˈpɛː]
She always closes the window before she dines.
Thanks! Glad I could be of some assistance in finding it.
Ælfwine wrote:Brilliant, Dormouse. It's obvious when comparing Silvish to other romance languages that it is quite unique, but still shares similarities with it's neighbors.
[+1]
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 21:17

Ælfwine wrote:Brilliant, Dormouse. It's obvious when comparing Silvish to other romance languages that it is quite unique, but still shares similarities with it's neighbors.
That's wonderful to hear, since you just described the great balancing act in making this conlang. I'm glad you think it's going well.
shimobaatar wrote:Thanks! Glad I could be of some assistance in finding it.
Yeah, thank you. [:)]
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 21:19

Dormouse559 wrote:Certainly. As it happens, I was looking for that sentence but couldn't find it.

Essa ferma simpre le fennáutre avent de sopâ.
[ˈɛ.sa ˈfɛːɾ.ma ˈsẽ.pɾə lə fəˈnɛo̯.tɾə aˈvã də sɔˈpɛː]
She always closes the window before she dines.
Does "essa" come from ipse? How did it get reanalyzed as a pronoun?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 21:32

qwed117 wrote:Does "essa" come from ipse? How did it get reanalyzed as a pronoun?
Yes, it does come from ipse. Ipse was already a pronoun in Latin; it meant "himself/herself/itself", and the shift to a subject pronoun happened in Sardinian.
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 21:40

Dormouse559 wrote:
qwed117 wrote:Does "essa" come from ipse? How did it get reanalyzed as a pronoun?
Yes, it does come from ipse. Ipse was already a pronoun in Latin; it meant "himself/herself/itself", and the shift to a subject pronoun happened in Sardinian.
Hmm, I would've expected it to go from pronoun > determiner > pronoun...

What happened to ille then? Is it still used in indirect forms?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Mon 08 Aug 2016, 21:57

qwed117 wrote:Hmm, I would've expected it to go from pronoun > determiner > pronoun...
As plausible as anything. I haven't traced its complete path.
qwed117 wrote:What happened to ille then? Is it still used in indirect forms?
No, not in the pronouns (It did become the definite article.), but it survived long enough to influence or fuse with ipse's reflexes. Suè for example looks like it came from *ipsui, parallel to *illui, the source of French/Italian lui. You can see a table of the personal pronouns in section 5.2 of this post.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Zythros Jubi » Tue 09 Aug 2016, 04:46

It would be better to add translations of examples above in Franco-Provençal (Savoyard and Valdôtain dialects).
PS: Is Franco-Provençal the closest language to Silvish?
Spoiler:
/fɔ̃ˈtɑ̃.ɑ/ fontana fontan-a fontana fontana fontana source wellspring
/ˈlɑ̃.ɑ/ lana lan-a lana lana lana laine wool
There are different orthographies for Franco-Provençal, and the pronunciation of intervocalic n as nasal vowels resembles Silvish pronunciation as /ŋ/.
Edit: Intervocalic nasalization is also what Portuguese did.
Last edited by Zythros Jubi on Tue 09 Aug 2016, 18:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Tue 09 Aug 2016, 06:09

Do you know of any example sentences in Valdôtain or Savoyard? I've had a harder time finding specific resources for Franco-Provençal. Anyway, there is a translation to Franco-Provençal - if not the particular dialects you're interested in - of the "She closes the window" sentence. Just follow the URL shimobaatar gave.

On your postscript, I don't know what Silvish's closest relative is. I tend to put it with the Gallo-Romance languages, but beyond that, I've preferred to just let it do its thing. In many ways, it's like Gallo-Romance, but in other ways (e.g. /kʷ gʷ/ > /p b/ before rounded vowels, retention of the Latin dative) it very much isn't.

I didn't know about the intervocalic nasalization. I think /ŋ/ was inspired by a feature in Ligurian, so it's neat to see that it fits.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Zythros Jubi » Tue 09 Aug 2016, 18:16

How did you find translations in Occitan, by the way?
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Tue 09 Aug 2016, 18:44

I made them. I found a dictionary that lets you search by dialect, and I used Occitan Wiktionary/Wikipedia for pronunciations. I can't say they're totally correct, but they give an idea of vocab/pronunciation correspondences.

I'd do something like that for Franco-Provençal, but I don't have similar resources at my disposal.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 12 Aug 2016, 21:25

Negation news! The negative particle ne is no longer spelled with a circumflex. Originally, the circumflex was to distinguish from a form of the indefinite article, but I removed that form a long time ago. So, I didn't realize it until now, but the circumflex isn't necessary anymore. PS: I'm really used to writing , so if I slip and use it, please let me know.

That gives me a great segue into my next big post, negation. Comments, questions and suggestions are always welcome.

9. Negation
Negation in Silvish is based around a set of particles that appear near the finite verb in a clause. It is normal for more than one particle to be used at once, and the use of three or more is not unheard of.

9.1 Basic Negation
The most basic way to negate a Silvish sentence is with ne … pas, which corresponds to English "(do) not". Ne goes before the finite verb and any clitic pronouns. Pas goes directly after the finite verb. (Note that ne /nə/ becomes nen /nə.ŋ‿/ before vowels and /l/.) Below are two affirmative sentence followed by their negated counterpart.

1)
Gzo vési li gzati.
I see the cat
I see the cat.

Gzo ne vési pas li gzati.
I NEG see NEG the cat
I do not see the cat.

2)
Gzo vúghi vér'li gzati.
I want see-INF=the cat
I want to see the cat.

Gzo ne vúghi pas vér'li gzati.
I NEG want NEG see-INF=the cat
I do not want to see the cat.

9.1.1 Negative Indefinite
When a negated verb has an indefinite direct object, and the direct object is a noun, the direct object is preceded by grê de. Any article the object has is dropped. For that reason, grê de has been analyzed as a negative indefinite article.

Gzo vési uni gzati.
I see a cat
I see a cat.

Gzo ne vési pas grê de gzati.
I NEG see NEG NEG of cat
I do not see a cat.

9.2 Other Negatives
Besides ne, pas and grê de, the main negative words in Silvish are rin (nothing), chicun (no one) and gzamás (never). These belong to different parts of speech but usually behave similarly syntactically. They usually come directly after the finite verb of a clause, with ne in the normal preverbal position. And pas tends to be dropped if any of these negatives is used.

9.2.1 Using Pas With Other Negatives
As stated, most negated verbs are only accompanied by ne followed by one other negative word. However, sometimes pas is included with other negative words to give a contrastive meaning. Below is a quick exchange (followed by gloss and translation):

A: Tu as vesud li gzati, non ?
B: Non, gzo nen ò pas gzamás vesud li gzati.

A: you have seen the cat, no
B: no, I NEG have NEG never seen the cat

A: You've seen the cat, haven't you?
B: No, I have never seen the cat.


Saying pas gzamás instead of just gzamás communicates that the sentence contradicts or contrasts with whatever came before it.

9.2.2 Pronominal Negatives
There are two main negative words that act like indefinite pronouns: rin and chicun. Chicun declines like un and rin is invariable.

9.2.2.1 Nominative Use
Being like pronouns, these negatives can be the subject of a clause. In this case, they simply go in the subject position, usually somewhere before ne. When the negatives are moved like this, pas is still only used for contrast or contradiction.

Chicun ne vés li gzati.
nobody NEG sees the cat
Nobody sees the cat.

Because Silvish marks case, that word order isn't inviolable. Compare the following sentences:

Li gzati ne vés chicun.
DEF-OBL cat-OBL NEG sees nobody.NOM
Nobody sees the cat.

U gzat ne vés chicuni.
DEF.NOM cat.NOM NEG sees nobody-OBL
The cat sees nobody.

The two sentences have the same word order in Silvish, but they are as unambiguous as the English sentences, which rely on syntax to show who did what. The first sentence isn't what someone would normally say (read: poetic), but due to case marking it can't be confused with the second, more common sentence.

9.2.2.2 Use With Adjectives
Pronominal negatives can be modified with adjectives, but not directly. The negative is followed by the connective particle ca and the adjective, which defaults to the nominative masculine singular.

Gzo ne vési rin ca bizarre.
I NEG see nothing CONN strange
I see nothing strange.
Edit: 14-8-16 (9.2, 9.2.2.1) clarifying that pas is dropped when other negatives are used
Last edited by Dormouse559 on Sun 14 Aug 2016, 08:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Silvish

Post by qwed117 » Fri 12 Aug 2016, 22:12

what is the origin of gzamas?
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 12 Aug 2016, 22:22

It's a compound of gza "already" (< Lt. iam) and más (< Lt. magis). Same as French jamais.
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