Silvish

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Re: Silvish

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 17:47

Dormouse559 wrote:Yeah, thank you. [:)]
[:D]
Dormouse559 wrote: On your postscript, I don't know what Silvish's closest relative is. I tend to put it with the Gallo-Romance languages, but beyond that, I've preferred to just let it do its thing. In many ways, it's like Gallo-Romance, but in other ways (e.g. /kʷ gʷ/ > /p b/ before rounded vowels, retention of the Latin dative) it very much isn't.
This is something I've wondered about, too, but however you classify it, the language is certainly very interesting.
Dormouse559 wrote:Negation news! The negative particle ne is no longer spelled with a circumflex. Originally, the circumflex was to distinguish from a form of the indefinite article, but I removed that form a long time ago. So, I didn't realize it until now, but the circumflex isn't necessary anymore. PS: I'm really used to writing , so if I slip and use it, please let me know.
Maybe spelling it as is a common mistake amongst Silvish speakers?
Dormouse559 wrote: Being like pronouns, these negatives can be the subject of a clause. In this case, they simply go in the subject position, usually somewhere before ne.

Chicun ne vés li gzati.
nobody NEG sees the cat
Nobody sees the cat.

Because Silvish marks case, that word order isn't inviolable. Compare the following sentences:

Li gzati ne vés chicun.
DEF-OBL cat-OBL NEG sees nobody.NOM
Nobody sees the cat.

U gzat ne vés chicuni.
DEF.NOM cat.NOM NEG sees nobody-OBL
The cat sees nobody.

The two sentences have the same word order in Silvish, but they are as unambiguous as the English sentences, which rely on syntax to show who did what. The first sentence isn't what someone would normally say (read: poetic), but due to case marking it can't be confused with the second, more common sentence.
You don't need pas after the finite verb in these sentences?
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 20:56

shimobaatar wrote:Maybe spelling it as is a common mistake amongst Silvish speakers?
You know, I always justified the circumflex in <nê> by saying it came from a superscript <n> (cf. prevocalic <nen>). So maybe the circumflex form is an etymological spelling that was deprecated within living memory. And older speakers tend to write <nê>, while younger speakers write <ne>.
shimobaatar wrote:You don't need pas after the finite verb in these sentences?
No, you don't. I wasn't clear in my post. Pas is normally dropped if another negative word (besides ne or grê de) is used. It is only included if the clause contrasts with something said earlier.
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Re: Silvish

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 13 Aug 2016, 21:03

Dormouse559 wrote:You know, I always justified the circumflex in <nê> by saying it came from a superscript <n> (cf. prevocalic <nen>). So maybe the circumflex form is an etymological spelling that was deprecated within living memory. And older speakers tend to write <nê>, while younger speakers write <ne>.
I like this idea.
Dormouse559 wrote:No, you don't. I wasn't clear in my post. Pas is normally dropped if another negative word (besides ne or grê de) is used. It is only included if the clause contrasts with something said earlier.
Oh, thanks for the clarification. I thought it was only dropped if another negative word was used after the finite verb.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 14 Aug 2016, 08:06

shimobaatar wrote:Oh, thanks for the clarification. I thought it was only dropped if another negative word was used after the finite verb.
I can see where that came from. I'll try to make the post clearer.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Thu 18 Aug 2016, 01:20

You might remember the Château de Briançon, which I talked about in this post. Well, I kept on researching, and today I found a 17th century engraving of it!

Image
source

Obviously, this isn't drawn to scale, but it's the only depiction I've been able to find. From what I can tell, all that's left of the château today is some scattered stones.

In related news, I happened upon the nearby Château de Miolans, which I want to use for reference if I decide to have Briançon survive to the present day. As you can see in the photo below, it's a similar setup with a castle perched on top of a ridge.

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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 24 Aug 2016, 02:18

You can always count on numbers. [:D] So let's learn about Silvish numbers. Let me know if the explanations are unclear, especially in section 10.1.1. Some numbers ended up being much more complicated to explain than I thought. And if you have questions, comments or suggestions, don't hesitate to share.

10. Numbers

10.1 Cardinals
Cardinal numbers express the quantity of something. They always come before the noun they modify. Most cardinals are invariable except for three cases: 100, the powers of 10 starting at 1 000 000, and numbers ending in 1 or 2. Un "one" agrees with the noun it modifies in gender and case. Dos "two" agrees in gender. The treatment of the other two variable number types is discussed in 10.1.1.

0 - zerot [zəˈɾɔ]
1 - NOM.M: un [ˈõ], NOM.F: unna [ˈo.na], OBL.M: únni [ˈu.nɪ], OBL.F: ún [ˈõ]
2 - M: dos [ˈdɔ], F: dovas [ˈdɔː.va]
3 - tres [ˈtɾɛ]
4 - patre [ˈpa.tɾə]
5 - cinc [ˈɕẽ]
6 - siés [ˈse̯a]
7 - sét [ˈse]
8 - huet [ˈo̯ɛ]
9 - nuóe [ˈno̯ɑː(.ə)]

10 - diéz [ˈde̯aː]
11 - unze [ˈõː.zə]
12 - dóze [ˈdoː.zə]
13 - tréze [ˈtɾeː.zə]
14 - patórze [paˈtoːɾ.zə]
15 - chinze [ˈkẽː.zə]
16 - séze [ˈseː.zə]
17 - diéz-sét [ˈde̯aː sɪ]
18 - diéz-huet [ˈde̯aː.z‿ʊ̯ɛ]
19 - diéz-nuóe [ˈde̯aː ˈno̯ɑː(.ə)]

20 - vinti [ˈvẽ.tɪ]
21 - vinti-un [ˈvẽˈte̯‿õ]

30 - trinta [ˈtɾẽ.ta]
40 - paranta [paˈɾõ.ta]
50 - chimpanta [kẽˈpõ.ta]
60 - siasanta [sɪ̯aˈzõ.ta]
70 - sitanta [sɪˈtõ.ta]
80 - huetanta [ʊ̯əˈtõ.ta]
90 - nonnanta [nɔˈnõ.ta]

100 - NOM/OBL.SG: cent [ˈɕã], NOM.PL: cents [ˈɕã], OBL.PL: céntis [ˈɕẽ.tɪ]
1 000 - míle [ˈmiː.lə]
1 000 000 - miliun [mɪˈle̯õː]
1 000 000 000 - miliard [mɪˈle̯aːɾ]

12 345 678 - dóze miliúns tres cents paranta-cinc míle siés cents sitanta-huet [ˈdoː.zə mɪˈle̯õː tɾɛ ˈɕã paˈɾõ.ta ˈɕẽ ˈmiː.lə sɪ̯a ˈɕã sɪˈtõ.ta ˈo̯ɛ]

10.1.1 'Cent', 'Miliun', etc.
Cent and the power-of-10 words beginning at miliun (P10s) have some similarities and differences. The main difference between them is that a P10 must be connected to the noun it modifies by de, while cent does not have to. Additionally, a P10 must always be preceded by a determiner or another number, while cent does not have to. Compare un miliun de flúrs (one million flowers) and cent flúrs (one hundred flowers). One more difference is that cent, and any determiners modifying it, agrees with the noun phrase head. Contrast that with miliun, which becomes the NP head, taking all case marking from the noun and becoming the agreement target for words modifying the phrase.

Cent and P10s are similar in that both mark their own plurality. When modified by a plural determiner or a numeral greater than 1, they take plural marking. Also, both cent and P10s are grammatically masculine, and any number modifying them agrees with them fully. Following are a few examples using miliun:

un miliun de flúrs
one.NOM.M million.NOM.SG of flower.NOM.PL
one million flowers

dos miliúns de flúrs
two.M million.NOM.PL of flower.NOM.PL
two million flowers

vuô únni miliuni de flúrs
with one.OBL.M million.OBL.SG flower-NOM.PL
with one hundred flowers

vuô dos miliúnis de flúrs
with two.M million-OBL.PL flower-NOM.PL
with two million flowers

Note how flúrs "flowers" is always plural, but miliun only gets plural marking when it is modified by a number greater than 1. And miliun marks case while flúrs remains in its nominative form. Note also how un and dos agree with miliun, which is masculine, rather than flúrs, which is feminine.

10.2 Ordinals
Ordinal numbers give the position of something in a sequence. They behave like adjectives and all decline for gender, number and case. After "fifth", they are largely regular, formed by adding -iame to the cardinal form. This suffixation causes the final word in the number to lose stress, so some respelling occurs to account for that (e.g. siés "six" > siasiame "sixth"; trinta-sét "thirty-seven" > trinta-sitiame "thirty-seventh").

0th - zerotiame [zə.ɾɔˈte̯aː.mə], nuole [ˈnuː.lə]
1st - primier [pɾɪˈmiː]
2nd - segun [səˈgõː]
3rd - tiarciame [tɪ̯aˈɕe̯aː.mə]
4th - partiame [paˈte̯aː.mə]
5th - chintiame [kẽˈte̯aː.mə]
6th - siasiame [sɪ̯aˈze̯aː.mə]
7th - sitiame [sɪˈte̯aː.mə]
8th - huetiame [ʊ̯əˈte̯aː.mə]
9th - nuöviame [nʊ̯ɔˈve̯aː.mə]

10th - diaziame [dɪ̯aˈze̯aː.mə]
11th - unziame [õˈze̯aː.mə]
12th - duziame [dʊˈze̯aː.mə]
13th - triziame [tɾɪˈze̯aː.mə]
14th - paturziame [pa.tʊˈze̯aː.mə]
15th - chinziame [kẽˈze̯aː.mə]
16th - siziame [sɪˈze̯aː.mə]
17th - diazsitiame [dɪ̯a.sɪˈte̯aː.mə]
18th - diaz·huetiame [dɪ̯a.zʊ̯əˈte̯aː.mə]
19th - diaznuöviame [dɪ̯a.nʊ̯ɔˈve̯aː.mə]

20th - vintiame [vẽˈte̯aː.mə]
21st - vinti-uniame [ˈvẽ.tɪ̯‿ʊˈŋe̯aː.mə]

30th - trintiame [tɾẽˈte̯aː.mə]
40th - parantiame [pa.ɾõˈte̯aː.mə]
50th - chimpantiame [kẽ.põˈte̯aː.mə]
60th - siasantiame [sɪ̯a.zõˈte̯aː.mə]
70th - sitantiame [sɪ.tõˈte̯aː.mə]
80th - huetantiame [ʊ̯ə.tõˈte̯aː.mə]
90th - nonnantiame [nɔ.nõˈte̯aː.mə]

100th - centiame [ɕãˈte̯aː.mə]
200th - doscentiame [dɔ.ɕãˈte̯aː.mə]

1 000th - mieliame [miˈle̯aː.mə]
1 000 000th - milionniame [mɪ.lɪ̯ɔˈne̯aː.mə]
1 000 000 000th - miliardiame [mɪ.lɪ̯aˈde̯aː.mə]

12 345 678th - dóze miliúns tres cents paranta-cinc míle siés cents sitanta-huetiame [ˈdoː.zə mɪˈle̯õː tɾɛ ˈɕã paˈɾõ.ta ˈɕẽ ˈmiː.lə sɪ̯a ˈɕã sɪˈtõ.ta ʊ̯əˈte̯aː.mə]

10.2.1 Abbreviation
Most ordinals, except primier and segun, can be abbreviated by writing the corresponding figure followed by the declensional ending of the -iame suffix.

the sixth son = u siasiame fieg = u 6e fieg
for the third sons = pris tirciámis fiéglis = pris 3is fiéglis

Primier is shortened as "1" followed by "r" and the declensional ending.

the first son = u primier fieg = u 1r fieg
for the first sons = pris priméris fiéglis = pris 1ris fiéglis

Segun is shortened as "2" followed by "n" and the declensional ending.

the second son = u segun fieg = u 2n fieg
for the second sons = pris segúnis fiéglis = pris 2nis fiéglis

The same procedure is followed with Roman numerals.

the twenty-first century = u vinti-uniame siecle = u XXIe siecle

10.3 Fractions
Except for a few irregular ones, most fraction words are identical to the corresponding ordinal. The only difference is that they are treated as masculine nouns. For example, 1/7 = un sitiame and 2/7 = dos sitiámes. Below are the irregular fraction terms.

½ - un dimig [ˈõ dɪˈmeː], la mited [la mɪˈtɛː]
⅓ - un tiarcs [õ ˈte̯aɾ]
¼ - un part [õ ˈpaɾ]

10.4 Collectives/Approximates
Like French and other surrounding languages, Silvish has a set of words that designate a set or an approximate amount of something (cf. En. "dozen"). These are all feminine nouns ending in -ena, except for 1 000, which has a different suffix and is masculine. They are connected to the nouns they modify by de (e.g. unna diazena de métres "about ten meters"). Because these words are approximate, only a few numbers have this form, and out of the numbers that do, only the forms for 10, 12, 15, 20, 50, 100 and 1 000 are very common.

about 10 - diazena [dɪ̯aˈzɛː.ŋa]
about 12 - duzena [dʊˈzɛː.ŋa]
about 15 - chinzena [kẽˈzɛː.ŋa]
about 20 - vintena [vẽˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 30 - trintena [tɾẽˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 40 - parantena [pa.ɾõˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 50 - chimpantena [kẽ.põˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 60 - siasantena [sɪ̯a.zõˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 70 - sitantena [sɪ.tõˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 80 - huetantena [ʊ̯ə.tõˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 90 - nonnantena [nɔ.nõˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 100 - centena [ɕãˈtɛː.ŋa]
about 1 000 - mielier [miˈliː]
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Fri 02 Sep 2016, 01:09

So I had an idea last night. The Gallo-Italic languages retained the Latin nominative and accusative. They eventually dropped the nominative, except for a few words which lost their accusative forms instead. I'm postulating that Silvish also retained the nominative (along with the accusative and dative) and lost it as well. But when Silvish lost the nominative, another vestige remained in possession. Here's a description I drew up; the first part is grammatical context, the second part is where the nominative figures in.

1)
In formal situations, there is a limited possessive expression that can be used instead of [possessum] + de + [possessor]. It is simply [possessum] + [possessor]. I'll call it the "formal possessive". One principal restriction is that the possessor must be a singular, definite noun. The construction is also most often used when the possessor is a proper noun or a human noun. For example, both of these possessive phrases are correct:

la merre de Marïa ~or~ la merre Marïa
Mary's mother

The main difference is that la merre Marïa is considered formal while la merre de Marïa is neutral, acceptable across all registers. Prepositions that end in de can also be used like this.

a cutadi de Marïa ~or~ a cutadi Marïa
next to Mary

Like with the earlier two phrases, a cutadi Marïa is more formal than a cutadi de Marïa.

2)
A choice few nouns have a special form that is only used when they are the head of the formal possessive. (It reminds me of the construct state in Semitic languages.) This form descends from the Latin nominative and is very irregular. Among the words with this form, the most current ones are:

NOM.SG > Formal Possessive
saür [saˈoː] sister > suorra [ˈsuː.ra]
enfánt [ãˈfã] child > enfa [ˈã.fa]
nevud [nəˈvoː] nephew > nes [ˈnɛ]
compagnun [kõ.paˈɲõː] companion > compin [kõˈpẽː]
serviur [səˈve̯oː] servant > servirre [səˈveː.rə]

There are others that are either poetic, archaic or restricted to fixed phrases. They include:

segnur [səˈɲoː] lord > siére [ˈse̯aː.ɾə]
pravirre [pɾaˈveː.rə] priest > pritre [ˈpɾe.tɾə]
traviur [tɾaˈve̯oː] traitor > trautre [ˈtɾao̯.tɾə]
amaür [a.maˈoː] lover > amarre [aˈmaː.rə]

These forms only exist in the nominative singular. If the noun is in a non-subject position or is plural, it takes its regular forms. For example, one can say:

la saür de Marïa ~or~ la suorra Marïa
Mary's sister

But in an oblique context, saür always has a regular form:

pre saüri de Marïa ~or~ pre saüri Marïa
for Mary's sister


tl;dr - Announcing Silvish: The First Semitic Romlang! Accept no substitutes!
Last edited by Dormouse559 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 01:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 04 Sep 2016, 09:27

Here's a post on clothing vocabulary. The sections are Upper Body, Lower Body, Head, Feet and Accessories. Look for full-body garments under "Upper Body". Any clothing terms I missed? Let me know and I'll add them.

The more I researched Silvia's/Savoie's traditional dress, the more I found, so after the vocab, you can learn a lot about traditional Silvish clothing, with pictures!

Abiglaménts [a.bɪ.ʎaˈmẽ] m - Clothes

Upper Body

bamiezet [ba.miˈzɛ] m - vest
chamiza [tɕaˈmeː.za] f - (button-up) shirt
chamizier [tɕa.mɪˈziː] m - blouse
czale [ˈɕaː.lə] m - shawl
magla [ˈmaː.ʎa] f - sweater
maglina [maˈʎeː.ŋa] f - tee-shirt
mantaul [mõˈtaːo̯] m - coat
muntiera [mõˈtiː.ɾa] f - bra
pigzama [pɪˈdʑaː.ma] m - pajamas
roba [ˈrɔː.ba] f - dress
vesta [ˈvɛ(s).ta] f - jacket (formal or casual)

Lower Body

aventier [a.vãˈtiː] m - apron
culerúns [kʊ.ləˈɾõː] mpl - shorts
culotas [kʊˈlɔ.ta] fpl - underwear, briefs, panties
gzupa [ˈdʑo.pa] f - skirt
pantalúns [põ.taˈlõː] mpl - pants

Head

bonnet [bɔˈnɛ] m - bonnet
chapaul [tɕaˈpaːo̯] m / coaul [kɔˈaːo̯] m - hat
charonna [tɕaˈɾɔː.na] f - crown
vaul [ˈvaːo̯] m - veil

Feet

bota [ˈbɔ.ta] f - shoe, boot
choçonna [tɕɔˈsɔː.na] f - sock
soca [ˈsɔ.ka] f - work shoe, clog
talúns óts [taˈlõː.z‿ʊ] mpl - high heels

Accessories

breçelet [bɾə.səˈlɛ] m - bracelet
cintura [ɕẽˈtoː.ɾa] f - belt
colana [kɔˈlaː.ŋa] f - necklace
cravota [kɾaˈvɔ.ta] f - necktie
ocharpa [ɔˈtɕaɾ.pa] f - scarf

A Snapshot of Traditional Silvish Garb

Traditionally, a Silvish woman wore a wool dress, along with a blouse, shawl, bonnet and apron. The hair was pulled back into a braid or a bun. Clothing, and particularly the kind and intricacy of its embroidery, was an important way to distinguish inhabitants of different towns as well as different social classes. In the 18th and 19th centuries, women began to wear various pendants, often in the shape of crosses. The cruez aflorida (flowery cross) and was one design distinctive of the Tarentaise Valley. The cruez-trivolet (clover cross) also became popular by association with Saint Maurice, the patron saint of the House of Savoy.

images in the spoilers
Spoiler:
Silvish women from the village of Tignes in traditional dress
Image
source

Cruez aflorida
Image
source

Cruez-trivolet
Image
source
Over time, a more intricate style of bonnet emerged among the women of Silvia, called the fruntiera, or frontière in the local French dialect. The fruntiera is highly decorative, ornamented with embroidery, lace and ribbons. It frames the face with two lobed openings, suggesting a heart shape. The hair is braided and wrapped in black cloth, after which it is looped behind the fruntiera. If you think it looks like something a certain galactic senator would wear, you aren't alone.
Spoiler:
A woman wearing a fruntiera
Image
source

Women wearing fruntieras in 1930, probably at a cultural event; note the woman to the right in more modern clothes
Image
alternate angle
source
source

Young women wearing fruntieras at modern cultural celebrations
Image
source

Image
source
A Silvish man wore pants, a shirt, a vest, a wool jacket and a black felt hat called a bogna; during manual labor, he would wear a kind of smock, called a bliota, over his other clothes. Clogs were common working footwear. While generally less showy than women's clothes, men's clothing came to develop its own flourishes. For example, the customary wool jacket had no buttons but often had boldly decorated buttonholes anyway.
Spoiler:
A Silvish shepherd wearing the bliota and clogs
Image
source

In the back left, a man wears a vest, jacket and bogna
Image
source
Silvish clothing reached its peak in terms of prominence and variety of colors and decoration in the 19th and early 20th centuries. But the economic and cultural changes wrought by World War I caused traditional clothing to fall out of favor as everyday wear. Nowadays, it is mainly to be seen at cultural festivals and other special occasions.
Edit: Adding more pictures of the fruntiera
Last edited by Dormouse559 on Mon 26 Sep 2016, 18:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Wed 14 Sep 2016, 20:38

Here's how to talk about time in Silvish.

Tens [ˈtã] m - Time

segonna [səˈgɔː.na] f - second
minuota [mɪˈŋu.ta] f - minute
ora [ˈɔː.ɾa] f - hour, time (of day)
gzorn [ˈdʑɔːɾ] m, gzornada [dʑɔˈnaː.ɾa] f - day
senmana [sãˈmaː.ŋa] f - week
mis [ˈme] m - month
sazun [saˈzõː] f - season
an [ˈõː] m, anada [aˈŋaː.ɾa] f - year

Gzorn and an refer to the day and the year as points, with no internal structure. Gzornada and anada portray them as durations. Compare them to the perfective and imperfective verbal aspects.

Oras [ˈɔː.ɾa] - Times of the Day

matin [maˈtẽː] m, matinada [ma.tɪˈŋaː.ɾa] f - morning
miagzorn [mɪ̯aˈdʑɔːɾ] m, nona [ˈnɔː.ŋa] f - midday/noon
apres-dinnâ [aˈpɾɛ dɪˈnɛː] m - afternoon
ser [ˈsɛː] m, sada [ˈsaː.ɾa] f - evening
nuet [ˈno̯ɛ] f - night
mia·nuet [mɪ̯aˈno̯ɛ] f - midnight

The difference between matin/ser and matinada/sada is the same as the one between gzorn/an and gzornada/anada.

Gzórns da Senmana [ˈdʑoːɾ da sãˈmaː.ŋa] - Days of the Week

diluns [dɪˈlõ] m - Monday
dimers [dɪˈmɛɾ] m - Tuesday
dimencres [dɪˈmã.kɾə] m - Wednesday
digzuös [dɪˈdʑo̯ɔ] m - Thursday
divindres [dɪˈvẽː.dɾə] m - Friday
di·sandres [dɪˈsõː.dɾə] m - Saturday
dimingza [dɪˈmẽː.dʑa] m - Sunday

The di(·) at the beginning of each name can be dropped in informal situations. The di(·) can also be dropped in most registers when listing days (e.g. diluns, mers e mencres - Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday).

Mís [ˈmi] - Months

gzanvier [dʑõˈviː] m - January
fevrier [fəˈvɾiː] m - February
mercs [ˈmɛɾ] m - March
avriel [aˈvɾiː] m - April
[ˈmɛ] m - May
gzuign [ˈdʑo̯ẽː] m - June
gzuglet [dʑʊˈʎɛ] m - July
ut [ˈo] m - August
setembre [səˈtãː.bɾə] m - September
otombre [ɔˈtõː.bɾə] m - October
novembre [nɔˈvãː.bɾə] m - November
decembre [dəˈɕãː.bɾə] m - December

and ut are normally called u mis de má "the month of May" and u mis d'ut "the month of August"

Sazúns [saˈzõː] - Seasons

ivern [ɪˈvɛːɾ] m - Winter
foier [fɔˈiː] m - Spring
oted [ɔˈtɛː] m - Summer
oton·ne [ɔˈtõː.nə] m - Fall


Phrasebook

Chint'ora ét-és ? [kẽˈtɔː.ɾa‿ɪ̯ˈt‿e] - What time is it?
Ét sét oras (du matin). [ɪ sɪˈt‿ɔː.ɾa (dʊ maˈtẽː)] - It is seven o'clock (in the morning).
Ét sét ed dimiag (du matin). [ɪ ˈse.t‿ɛ dɪˈme̯aː (dʊ maˈtẽː)] - It is half past seven (in the morning).
Ét sét ed part (du ser). [ɪ ˈse.t‿ɛ ˈpaɾ (dʊ ˈsɛː)] - It is a quarter past seven (in the evening).

A chínt óre téca tu arrivaràs ? [a kẽˈt‿oː.ɾə ˈte.ka ˈto a.rɪ.vaˈɾa] - What time will you arrive?
A sét oras du ser. [a sɪˈt‿ɔː.ɾa dʊ ˈsɛː] - At 7 pm.

- Silvia uses the 12-hour clock. However, Silvophones in France normally use the 24-hour format.
- Times like "7 pm" do not decline for case. It is only correct to say a sét oras, with oras "hours" in the nominative case, despite being governed by a "at". The form with the oblique, a sét óris, is correct only if something happens at seven different hours.


Chint gzorn ét-és ? [kẽ ˈdʑɔːɾ.n‿ɪˈt‿e] - What day is it?
Ét (di)mencres. [ˈe dɪˈmã.kɾə / ɪ ˈmã.kɾə] - It is Wednesday.

Chint ét la data ? [kẽˈt‿e.t‿la ˈda.ta] - What is the date?
Ét (di)mencres, u 14 setembre 2016. [ˈe dɪˈmã.kɾə ʊ paˈtoːɾ.zə səˈtãː.bɾə dɔ ˈmiː.lə ˈseː.zə] - It is Wednesday 14 September 2016.


i á cinc minuótis [ˈe̯‿ɛ ˈɕẽ mɪˈŋo̯ɑ.tɪ] - five minutes ago
ens cinc minuótis [ã ˈɕẽ mɪˈŋo̯ɑ.tɪ] - in five minutes

(Gzo sue professur) dés cinc ánis. [(dʑɔ ˈso̯ɛ pɾɔ.fəˈsoː) dɪ ɕẽˈk‿ɛː.ŋɪ] - (I have been a teacher) for five years.
(Gzo serò professur) par cinc ánis. [dʑɔ səˈɾɔ pɾɔ.feˈsoː) pa ɕẽˈk‿ɛː.ŋɪ] - (I will be a teacher) for five years.
(Gzo otavi professur) togzorn de cinc áns. [(ˈdʑɔ ɔˈtaː.vɪ pɾɔ.fəˈsoː) tɔˈdʑɔːɾ də ɕẽˈk‿ãː] - (I was a teacher) for five years.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 20:32

I've let this thread get really quiet, but that's just because I'm doing some significant reworks for Silvish sound changes and orthography. It'll probably be a while before all that's ready, but I like where it's going.

In the meantime, I've also been thinking about how to derive Silvish and Silvia (or something similar). I came up with them as derivations from Latin silva "forest", but I'm not sure how much sense that makes in an area known more for its mountains and valleys. Here's an alternate etymology I like. Medieval Germanic names were often formed from two elements. So put together the elements sig/sicle ("victory") and wig ("battle") and latinize them a bit, and you get *Siclevicus, maybe a historical figure who became the country's namesake. Put that through some sound changes and analogy and derivation, and you could get:

given name: Silvis (English/French)
country name: Silvicia (En), Silvicie (Fr)
demonym: Silvician (En), Silvicien (Fr) or maybe Silvish (En), Silvois (Fr)

Does that sound good to you? Do you have any ideas for how something like the name Silvia could emerge in southeastern France? I'm still undecided at this point, so suggestions are welcome.
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Re: Silvish

Post by All4Ɇn » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 21:39

Dormouse559 wrote:Do you have any ideas for how something like the name Silvia could emerge in southeastern France? I'm still undecided at this point, so suggestions are welcome.
Given that Silvius itself was a name in Latin, I think you could have an historical figure known by the name of Siclewig by the Germans whose name was latinized simply to Silvius due to its similar pronunciation. Or you could even take a more interesting route and have that historical figure be a woman whose name was latinized as Silvia
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 22:26

Wow! That's so elegant. Thanks for pointing that out. If I do go this route, we'll see what gender the person ends up being. Anything's possible.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Egerius » Sun 05 Feb 2017, 00:07

The woman who wrote the Peregrinatio Egeria is sometimes called Silvia.
Maybe she is the country's patron or something.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 05 Feb 2017, 03:44

That wouldn't be out of place. Silvia has a strong connection to people on journeys - since it contains the Little St. Bernard Pass - and St. Sylvia was a pilgrim.
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Re: Silvish

Post by All4Ɇn » Sun 05 Feb 2017, 04:25

Dormouse559 wrote:Wow! That's so elegant. Thanks for pointing that out. If I do go this route, we'll see what gender the person ends up being. Anything's possible.
[:$] Whoops I'm sorry. I thought you were being really sarcastic when you wrote this and I got kinda mad [>_<] . Thanks for the compliment! And glad to see Silvish back up and running [:D]

Another idea I just thought of is in addition to these ideas, it could also have something to with Latin salvia. Maybe the area become known for its sage plants?
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 05 Feb 2017, 15:20

All4Ɇn wrote: [:$] Whoops I'm sorry. I thought you were being really sarcastic when you wrote this and I got kinda mad [>_<] . Thanks for the compliment! And glad to see Silvish back up and running [:D]
Oh dear, yeah, that was a genuine compliment. You took the same starting point and end point that I did and connected them in a couple simple steps, when it took me a whole bunch of complex ones. That's pretty cool. [:3]
All4Ɇn wrote:Another idea I just thought of is in addition to these ideas, it could also have something to with Latin salvia. Maybe the area become known for its sage plants?
Hmm, I'll have to research if sage grows in the Alps.
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 25 Feb 2017, 23:03

Silvish is still in its cocoon, but I came up with an idiom I want it to have. When talking about an indeterminate large amount of things, Silvish speakers often use the number 153. It's a reference to one of Jesus' miracles, where the disciples catch 153 fish in a single net (John 21:1-14). The number is both large enough and yet so inexplicably specific that it fits perfectly. Phrases like "I've told you to clean your room a thousand times" would be rendered as "I've told you to clean your room 153 times".
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Re: Silvish

Post by Egerius » Sat 25 Feb 2017, 23:10

This idiom is really good. Brilliant. [:D]
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sun 26 Feb 2017, 02:51

Yay! I'm glad you like it. :mrgreen:
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Re: Silvish

Post by Dormouse559 » Sat 25 Mar 2017, 01:42

I realized I hadn't thought deeply enough about the diachronics of Silvish's cases. I finally did, and it's led me to decide Silvish has three cases (nominative, accusative, oblique); however, no one noun has unique forms for all three cases. The majority of nouns have identical nominative and accusative forms and a distinct oblique. But a smaller group of nouns has a distinct nominative with identical accusative and oblique forms.

Compare jatte* "cat" and merre "mother". Jatte has the distinct oblique like the majority of nouns, and merre has a distinct nominative, putting it in the smaller group.

Code: Select all

jatte ‘cat’
    SG    PL
NOM jatte jatto
ACC jatte jatto
OBL jatti játti

merre ‘mother’
    SG    PL
NOM merre mérre
ACC merri mérri
OBL merri mérri
* with tentative new sound changes/orthography


Here's the full explanation:
Spoiler:
Silvish initially retained the Latin nominative, accusative and dative (modern oblique) for all nouns. Like languages such as French, most nouns eventually lost the nominative forms. A smallish subset of human nouns dropped the accusative forms. Given names also dropped the accusative.

The question then becomes: Which of the remaining case forms take their place? For the nouns that lost the nominative, it's pretty simple; as the only other core case, the accusative takes on its role. Thus, these nouns have direct alignment morphologically.

But for nouns that lost the accusative, the thought process is more complex. My first thought was that the nominative should take on the role of the lost accusative, with the same reasoning as above, collapsing the language-wide system to two cases - direct and oblique. If the accusative-dropping nouns were synchronically random, I think that'd be the most plausible choice. But the nouns that lost the accusative in Silvish are all human nouns or personal names. As a result, they're more likely to be subjects, and it's marked for them to not be. Considering that, I chose to have the marked case, the oblique, fill the role of the lost accusative. As a result, this set of nouns has nominative-accusative alignment.

So there you have it - a language that has three cases, but only when all nouns are considered together. Any individual noun appears to have just two.
Question Time With the Prime Conlanger: So I'm pretty settled on the new case situation, but I want to know if you think it's a good idea to take this further. If the adjectives fully analogized with the nouns (contrasting the same cases as whatever noun they modify), that would create two new genders overlapping the original masculine and feminine. On the other hand, the adjectives could just lose their nominative forms, like the vast majority of nouns, and leave the gender system unchanged. So should Silvish innovate new genders? Yea or nay?
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