Quick Diachronics Challenge

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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Tue 22 May 2018, 15:50

I've not been able to make much progress with this beyond the following:
Spoiler:
1) Perhaps a palatal initial was original to the proto-word, not an innovation
2) The second vowel was probably non-high and unrounded, possibly */a/
3) Maybe the proto-word was *cajk:akʷ
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CarsonDaConlanger
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » Tue 22 May 2018, 16:40

Here, this may help:
The initial was not palatal
There were originally 4 syllables
Labialized and/or long consonants are innovations
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 22 May 2018, 23:00

Just a quick revised guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈtsa.i.koːk]
I might try to reconstruct it again later.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 23 May 2018, 02:55

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018, 23:00
Just a quick revised guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈtsa.i.koːk]
I might try to reconstruct it again later.
Oh, whoops, I misread one of your hints.

Anyway, if you're not going to have access to a computer very often soon, could you declare a "winner" before then?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » Wed 23 May 2018, 12:27

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018, 23:00
Just a quick revised guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈtsa.i.koːk]
I might try to reconstruct it again later.
I will declare one by noon today.
EDIT:
I didn't reply to your guess, so here goes:
There is only one word initial consonant(not an affricate), and it wasn't palatal.
There are four vowels, including a word final vowel.
There are no long vowels originally.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Wed 23 May 2018, 15:50

Another revised guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈta.i.ko.ku]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 24 May 2018, 02:25

My guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈa.t͡sa.i.kawk]
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GamerGeek » Thu 24 May 2018, 04:31

Spoiler:
The existence of Northern (Red), Western (Blue), Eastern (Green), and Southern dialects is apparent, even if this defies the geography
Image
Northern: *tʃæːko
Western: *çiː.kek
Eastern: *saj'gɯk
Southern: *tsaːjawk
I would guess the original root is *tsaj.gæwk
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GamerGeek » Thu 24 May 2018, 04:37

Spoiler:
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Wed 23 May 2018, 12:27
shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018, 23:00
Just a quick revised guess:
Spoiler:
*[ˈtsa.i.koːk]
I might try to reconstruct it again later.
I will declare one by noon today.
EDIT:
I didn't reply to your guess, so here goes:
There is only one word initial consonant(not an affricate), and it wasn't palatal.
There are four vowels, including a word final vowel.
There are no long vowels originally.
CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
Tue 22 May 2018, 16:40
Here, this may help:
The initial was not palatal
There were originally 4 syllables
Labialized and/or long consonants are innovations
*ti.ja.ge.ku
Playing the biggest game of Chinese telephone is fun.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » Thu 24 May 2018, 14:34

I am going to have to give this to Gamergeek, because he got the i before a correct.
Spoiler:
The original was [si.a.ka.ku]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GrandPiano » Sat 26 May 2018, 01:55

Is GamerGeek planning to do a new challenge?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GamerGeek » Mon 28 May 2018, 22:24

GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018, 01:55
Is GamerGeek planning to do a new challenge?
I'll have it in soon
Playing the biggest game of Chinese telephone is fun.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GrandPiano » Thu 12 Jul 2018, 18:33

GamerGeek wrote:
Mon 28 May 2018, 22:24
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018, 01:55
Is GamerGeek planning to do a new challenge?
I'll have it in soon
Are you still planning to do one?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Thu 12 Jul 2018, 19:52

GrandPiano wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018, 18:33
GamerGeek wrote:
Mon 28 May 2018, 22:24
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018, 01:55
Is GamerGeek planning to do a new challenge?
I'll have it in soon
Are you still planning to do one?
If I remember correctly, a few months ago, they said that they'd no longer have regular access to a computer. If we don't hear anything from them in the next few days, I think that someone else could probably take over.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Thu 12 Jul 2018, 20:20

shimobaatar wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018, 19:52
GrandPiano wrote:
Thu 12 Jul 2018, 18:33
GamerGeek wrote:
Mon 28 May 2018, 22:24
GrandPiano wrote:
Sat 26 May 2018, 01:55
Is GamerGeek planning to do a new challenge?
I'll have it in soon
Are you still planning to do one?
If I remember correctly, a few months ago, they said that they'd no longer have regular access to a computer. If we don't hear anything from them in the next few days, I think that someone else could probably take over.
That seems like a fair way to do it. I guess if there's nothing up by, what, Monday, then if anyone has anything, just post it as soon as you can and we can work from there [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 06:24

New challenge:
Image
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 19 Jul 2018, 08:41

My first guess is *ke'ryn.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by InquisitorJL » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 21:23

I've not taken part in one of these before so I hope my ideas aren't too silly, but my initial guess is kʷɛsiʔ.

My reasoning is as follows
Spoiler:
  • [kʷ] seems most likely for the initial, maybe splitting early to [k] and [p]>[f]
  • [ɛ] seems like the vowel most in the "centre" of the vowels we see first.
  • [ s] I feel like the starting point is probably [ s] or [z] and I think [z] going a devoiced [x] intervocalically in [kuxa] seems unlikely
  • I had most difficulty with this vowel. I'm going with [ i] because of the palatalisation in the western examples. I've not got a good explanation for the [y] in [ɛˈry] but I feel like the [a ɑ u] could come from laryngeal colouring from the final sound.
  • I feel like [ʔ] is more likely than [n] because my understanding is nasals tend to be pretty resilient to sound change so I figured one branch getting a nasal from rhinoglottophilia seems more likely than most of the branches losing the final nasal. Perhaps [ʡ] to explain vowel colouring
Also is there a better way to deal with characters in square brackets that are also BBCode tags.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Fri 20 Jul 2018, 21:28

Oh shoot, completely missed this one. I'll try to come up with a guess probably in the next 48 hours. So busy with work this week.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 21 Jul 2018, 16:01

Spoiler:
Right, so I've attempted to group the languages together, and this is where I've landed for the moment:

Image

For the time being, I'm calling the group in purple Group W, the group in red Group H, the group in brown Group K, and the group in black Group Th, based on the initial sounds associated with each group.

The languages which have initial /f/s are honestly confusing me. Some of them seem to share traits in common with Group Th languages, while others could easily be more closely related to Group W languages, especially /ɸɛɪ/.

Proto-W seems to be *wez, with the rounded vowel in the far west being the result of labialisation (a similar change is found in some German dialects, IIRC).

Proto-Th similarly seems to be *θez.

Proto-K is harder to work out, but it does seem to be something along the lines of *keHә̃, with word-initial stress, with some particularly weak medial consonant, possibly *x, which dropped out in two languages, with the hiatus being broken with an intervening *j in /kɛju/.

Proto-H is similarly difficult to work out, but does seem to have some sort of *herәn structure, perhaps with word-final stress this time.

Group H and Group K do seem to be the most closely relate, possibly with Proto-HK *kerәn, the medial *r becoming guttural in Group K, and the initial *k fricating in Group H. This points to a Pre-Proto-K form of something like **keʁәn.

This combined Group HK seems most closely related then to Group Th, which seems to have undergone some sort of Albanian/Spanish-esque palatalisation, with a Proto-HK-Th *kezәn. Pre-Proto-Th would thus be something like *kʲez(ә).

Group W definitely seems to point to a labialised initial, either *kʷ or *gʷ, so Proto-W might have been *wez, while Pre-Proto-W might have been *kʷez, suggesting the voiceless initial in the far west is actually a retention, i.e. Proto-W was more like *hʷez.

The /f/-initial languages are a pain, but I'm not sure how much more they add to the reconstruction. It's difficult to tell whether voiceless finals in any of the groups are retentions (other languages undergoing intervocalic voicing), or if they're the result of final consonant devoicing. I think the one thing the /f/-initial languages do add, is the possibility that there may have been a palatal off-glide in the initial syllable of the proto-word, however, it's also possible that this is an innovation, especially given it's a predominant feature only of this one set of eastern insular languages.

I'd say that the the proto-word we're looking for might be something along the lines of *kʷezәn, or possibly an older *kʷesәn.

[*]The final *n was lost relatively early on in multiple branches, surviving only into Group H properly (Group HK preserves it, but in Group K it shows up only as nasalisation in one language).
[*]The unstressed was similarly lost in multiple branches, retained only where stressed moved from the first syllable to the second, which in Group-HK may have been motivated by syllable weight (the second syllable being heavier in Group HK, because of the preserved final *n).
[*]The medial consonant does seem most likely to have been one of either *s or *z, becoming a rhotic in Group H, and becoming a post-alveolar sibilant in the insular /f/-initial languages due to the influence of a preceding off-glide in *ej
[*]The initial vowel does seem most likely to be *e, the most extreme changes affecting it only when it becomes unstressed, or when following a labial in one language.
[*]The initial consonant appears to be *kʷ, derounding in the southern HK-Th languages (and further palatalising in Th and fricating in H), while fricating in the northern WF languages

If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Group W is most closely related to the /f/-initial languages, although /feɹ/ still seems out of place amongst these.
tl;dr

I'd guess *kʷezәn, or possibly an older *kʷesәn
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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