Quick Diachronics Challenge

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qwed117
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 22:44

Image
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
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Click
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 23:23

Spoiler:
My guesses are *tʰógen and ipʰirkín. The acute accent denotes stress and the r is rather guttural.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 24 Sep 2017, 18:55

qwed117 wrote:Image
That's roughly my guess to the groupings. The dashed lines are extremely tenuous connections. I suspect the words were something like *ˈtʰogen and *ipʰuqin, but I haven't delved deep enough yet.
You're almost right when it comes to the "major" groupings in that there is an east vs. west division, but you've misclassified a couple of languages into the wrong groups. Your lower level classifications are similarly almost correct, but a few languages here and there have been placed into the wrong groups.


Click wrote:
Spoiler:
My guesses are *tʰógen and ipʰirkín. The acute accent denotes stress and the r is rather guttural.
I'm more or less tempted to suggest that Click is closer here. You've correctly determined the placement of stress in the proto-language, and that, in the second word, the second syllable is closed by a "guttural" consonant.



I think that's all I'll say for the moment, but it's quite interesting to see incredibly similar preliminary guesses so quickly from two different users. You're not quite there, but I think you might get closer with some more digging [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Tue 26 Sep 2017, 02:42

]
Very interesting response. Given that there's only 11 languages, and you mention that there's more than one language misplaced, that makes my groupings rather inaccurate, doesn't it....

Hmm, the word "guttural" isn't particularly helpful, but I figure that taking the most colloquial definition is probably safe. I can't really imagine what this guttural consonant could be other than Click's /ʁ/. I guess I'll just attach Click's corrections onto my word and add glottalization instead of aspiration...
*t'ógen
*ip'uʁqín
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 27 Sep 2017, 00:55

I think I'm going to have to wait for a guess or two from other people before saying anything more [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Znex » Wed 27 Sep 2017, 08:35

I'm gonna go a bit of a weird way here, with no glottalisations or aspirations:
*tógjən
*əpjaʁkjə́ŋ

My map is not much, but I hope I get some parts right (particularly the relative isolates).
Image
:eng: : [tick] | :grc: :wls: : [:|] | :chn: :isr: : [:S] | :nor: :deu: :rom: :ind: :con: : [:x]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 27 Sep 2017, 16:27

Hmmm... let's have a go at this...

Znex's grouping is a little more accurate in some areas, but less so in others. The orange group is a valid low-level grouping and they are related to the languages to the south, but not in the way proposed. In the west, by excluding the language on the small southern island, you've improved on Qwed's black group (which is a valid highest-level grouping), but simultaneously made it too constrained by excluding the language the the north of the northern island.

The only improvement that's been made in terms of the actual proto-words is that they don't contain aspirated or glottalised consonants, but the reflexes seen in the various daughter languages aren't down to *j-final clusters either.

So far you've hit on the following:
a) The first word is bisyllabic, and the second is trisyllabic
b) Both words end in *n
c) The syllable structure of both words
d) The stress placement in both words
e) The coda "guttural" in the second word, and that it's uvular.
f) And Click has correctly guessed the POA of the rest of the consonants in both words

As a hint, there may be some areal influence going on in lower-level groups.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 23:39

*tógen and ipʰiʁgín?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 00:57

Whoops, sorry, the POA of the second consonant of the first word has not been correctly identified yet.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 01:33

*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
Last edited by qwed117 on Sat 30 Sep 2017, 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 30 Sep 2017, 00:14

(sort of a hint) I'd be quite interested in seeing people's thinking on how the various words ended up with voiced and voiceless corresponding pairs.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Sat 30 Sep 2017, 02:07

Here was my first attempt:
Image

I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 18:44

qwed117 wrote:*tóɟen and *ipiʁkín?
(EDIT: I don't know why I put aspiration on the second
I wondered if you'd notice that, lol. With the lack of aspiration you're actually closer to with the second word but further away with the first.


jimydog000 wrote:Here was my first attempt:
Image

I also tried comparing components such as stress and having something to do with nasality in the coda, but I didn't find too much information.
/tiˈʑen/ + /aˈpoːq/ seems to be a central component to the reconstruction.
Your red groupings on the eastern half of the largest island are correct, but that's about it without really adding too much information regarding the groupings than I've already given.

If I had to pick three languages that would be "central" to the reconstruction, I'd say maybe 'da: - 'ba.ka, 'tain - 'ba.kin and 'tʰuoçən - ɕə'cʰin.

As I mentioned in a previous post, looking at the groupings, especially in regards to the MOA of the various plosives in both words, is fairly important.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 02:12

*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín

Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 15:08

qwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́ɟen and *əbirqín

Partly based on Sangi's comments. I decided to make the first vowel 'ɔ́' since it had reflexes similar to proto-Romance *ǫ. I also made the (previous) *p in the second word a *b considering how its voicing is differently affected throughout the range of words. I suspect the creaky voicing in [a'pak] may be because of the voicing being lost. When the stress moved back in the language, the effect was also to devoice the *b.
Unfortunately getting colder.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 22:17

Went a tad quiet there didn't it? [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 22:51

You really are just gonna have to give us a hint.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 23:17

Hmmm... the only one I can think of, and the one that inspired some of the sound changes, would be... "Yapese" and "glottalisation"
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 23:42

*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín

That's all I got

Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 08 Oct 2017, 23:48

qwed117 wrote:*tʰɔ́qən and *əpirkín

That's all I got

Maybe a Proto-lang inventory could help?
Oooo, getting closer there [:D]

The phoneme inventory isn't actually that bad, just:

/p t ts k q/
/m n ŋ/
/s h/
/r l/
/w j/

/i u/
/e o/
/a/

(C)V(C) with unpredictable final or penultimate stress.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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