Quick Diachronics Challenge

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
User avatar
jimydog000
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 82
Joined: Sat 19 Mar 2016, 04:14
Location: Australia

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Wed 11 Oct 2017, 10:53

So I am thinking the languages on the east got the bilabial voiced plosive from strengthening between vowels and then the first vowel disappears, uhhh I don't think me using a vague word like "central" helped me at all.
“Comparison is the death of joy.” -Mark Twain
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 11 Oct 2017, 15:38

Not intervocalic voicing, no. Again, think Yapese, as mentioned earlier, but then a hint of Proto-Mayan and some thoughts on Chadic proposed by Allan R. Bombard.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 253
Joined: Tue 28 Jul 2015, 17:43

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by ixals » Wed 11 Oct 2017, 17:15

I tried my best reconstructing it two times, about one week apart. I couldn't really come up with anything good in my eyes that wouldn't just be a variation of everyone else's guesses.

I noticed this game went from "everyone guesses for a while and whoever is the closest wins" to "we are working to get the exact result no matter how long it will take" over the last couple rounds. I preferred the first one because it allowed for more variety especially now when the last posts here don't really get any closer to the result - even with a lot of hints. [:(]

My guesses now would be *tóqan and *ipahkén. [:S]
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :fra:, :por:, :pol:

Цiски a Central Slavic conlang
Noattȯč a future German conlang [on hold]
Tungōnis Vīdīnōs Proto-Germanic goes Romance [on hold]
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 11 Oct 2017, 18:13

I was mostly holding out for some more guesses. Originally I'd planned on not giving hint and presenting the proto-words a week after setting the challenge, but that would have gone to Click based on just his first one guess, so it didn't really seem overly fair.

I think I'm with you on the use of hints as well. Most of the time it seems to lead to minor changes in guesses rather than to more accuracy (which I think we had more of when people used a sort of scoring method) which is why I tried to stick to " you got this bit right, this bit was close and this bit was way off"
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Thu 12 Oct 2017, 01:12

SOLUTION:

Image

Code: Select all

*'toqin    > 'tokin    > 'tʰóki~    > 'tʰóuki   > 'θú:ki   > 'sú:ki
                                    > 'tʰóke    > 'tʰógə   > 'tʰóg
                                                > 'tʰóɟa   > 'tʰóuɟa
                       > 'tocin     > 'tocin    > 'toɟən   > 'tójən
                                                > 'tʰo:cən > 'tʰuoçən
           > 'tɔqin    > tɔ'ɢɪn     > tə'ɣen    > tə'ʑen   > ti'ʑen
                                    > tə'ʁen    > tə'ɰen   > 'twen
                       > 'tɔʔin     > 'tɔ.in    > 'tɔin    > 'tain
                                                > 'tœ.in   > 'tœən
                                    > 'tʔɔi~    > 't'ɔe    > 'da:
                                                           > 't'ɔa:

*a.peq'kin > ə.peʔ'kin > ə.peʔ'kʰì~ > ə.peʔ'kʰì  > ə.pe'xìe > pe'hìə
                                    > ə.peʔ'kʰì  > ə'pʰí.kə > i'pʰík
                                                 > ə'pʰí.cə > 'pʰiéca
                       > peʔ'cin    > pe'cin     > pə'cin   > pə'cìn
                                                 > pə'cin   > ɕə'cʰin
           > a'pɛʔ.kin > a'pɛʔ.kin  > a'pa:.k'ən > a'pau.qə > a'po:q
                                    > a'pɛʔ.kən  > a'paˀ.kə > a'pa̰k
                       > ə'pɛʔ.kin  > 'pʔɛ.kin   > 'p'ɛ.kin > 'ba.kin
                                                 > 'p'e.kin > 'be.kən
                                    > 'pʔɛ.ki~   > 'p'ɛ.ke  > 'baka
                                                            > 'ʔɛag
I'm giving this one to Click, because of how close the initial solution was. The accuracy of the groupings never really got any better (although Znex was onto something) and it didn't look like much progress was being made on a more accurate reconstruction without the help of hints. After 3 weeks I'd say it's time for someone else to have a turn [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
gokupwned5
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 103
Joined: Fri 12 Aug 2016, 15:05

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by gokupwned5 » Sat 28 Oct 2017, 20:56

Are there going to be anymore challenges? No one else has commented in two weeks.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 28 Oct 2017, 22:39

Click one, and I let them know in a private message as well. Qwed was in second place in my mind, so if they want to take a stab at creating a new challenge instead, then I wouldn't object [:)] After that, I guess it'd be up to anyone if Click or Qwed don't mind [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4298
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2014, 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 30 Oct 2017, 02:24

I've been trying to get Click to write a new challenge whenever I see him. [:|]

I can make a challenge, it just will take me a while.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4298
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2014, 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 03:06

New challenge. Good luck.

1. ˈskoro
2. ˈjegonə
3. ˈendʒum
4. ˈepeno
5. ˈeskøŋ
6. ˈiwelaː
7. eˈgʷenam
8. eˈkuːna
9. evˈolãw̃
10. ˈetsãwa
11. ˈekoɲo
Last edited by qwed117 on Sat 04 Nov 2017, 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 04:11

Oof! This could be a fun one [:D]

I assume we're guessing grouping as well, or are these all neighbours in an island chain, with Lang1 at one extreme and Lang11 at another?
Spoiler:
If I had to make a preliminary guess, I'd say something like *eskʷeno
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Auvon
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat 27 Aug 2016, 07:48

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Auvon » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 04:59

What do </(n)j (n)y ng ū/> represent here?

Not a thorough look by any means, but here goes:

1: seems fairly typical, perhaps the fact that the initial vowel was (presumably, could have just been added everywhere else) deleted points to original stress on the second vowel.

2: some sort of insertion at the beginning, seems fairly typical

3. Fairly typical - m could have arisen from the original labial, pointing to perhaps a rounded vowel there. Just as likely not.

4. Further proof for a labiovelar with p

5. I assume the rounded front vowel is from influence from either: e on original o, o on original e, or (more likely) labiovelar on original e

6. Not much - long vowel, does that say much?

7. In tandem with 3, points perhaps to original final nasal widely deleted? w/r/t 5, if <ng> is indeed a velar nasal then maybe something to do with the ø

8. Nothing much? Second vowel maybe through the labvel again.

9. v again points to labiovelar, again trouble regarding the second vowel. End vowels seem important: pointing to ending in VC[alv]VN, or something. cf. 7, 3?

10: ts implies fronting of the labiovelar implies original e

11: Is this a palatal nasal or n followed by a front high rounded vowel?
Spoiler:
*skʷénom, not too different from sangi's.
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 10:28

Here's my first guess:
Spoiler:
Grouping and intermediate forms:
S-Group: *'skona
1. 'skoro
5. 'eskøng
10. 'etsãwa

K-Group: *'ekonam
2. 'yegonə
7. e'gwenam
8. e'kūna
11. 'ekonyo
6. 'iwelaa

N-Group: *'enjum
3. 'enjum

P-Group: *epona
4. 'epeno
9. ev'olão

Proto-Form: *eskwenam
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 04 Nov 2017, 20:14

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

1.  ˈ   s  ko   ro
5.  ˈe  s  kø   ŋ
<<  ˈe  s  ke   no

2.  ˈje    go   nə
8.   e    ˈkuː  na
11. ˈe     ko   ɲo
<<  ˈe     ko   no

4.  ˈe     pe   no

10. ˈe     tsã  wa
<<  ˈe     tsã  na (intermediate *n > *l)

7.   e    ˈgʷe  nam
9.   e    ˈvo   lãw̃
6.  ˈi     we   laː
<<   e     gʷe  nã

3.  ˈen    dʒum


<<< ˈe  s  ke   no

<<  ˈe     ko   no
<<  ˈe     pe   no
<<< ˈe     kʷe  no

<<  ˈe     tsã  na
<<   e     gʷe  nã
<<< ˈe     kʷe  na

<<< ˈe  s  ke   no
<<< ˈe     kʷe  no
<<< ˈe     kʷe  na
<-- ˈe  s  kʷe  no
ˈendʒum is such a pain to deal with. The final m might be easy enough if we assume final *n > m, but the vowels are a pain too. If I had to guess I'd say that the derives from palatalisation before original *e, with this vowel rounding under influence from final *o which was eventually dropped (the resulting *o raising to *u. The original *n would have nasalised the preceding vowel, as it did in Lang10, which could then explain the ndʒ cluster. This would be the closest relative of Lang3 Lang10
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Davush
sinic
sinic
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat 10 Jan 2015, 14:10

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush » Sun 05 Nov 2017, 13:54

My guess is similar to others:
Spoiler:
*eskʷenam
*s was clearly lost in most branches. Only 1 kept it.

*kʷe can easily become /kø/ and most other reflexes are straight forward. kʷe > we > vo seems quite plausible.

etsãwa and enʤum present a bit more of a challenge, but k > ts is reasonably common or it could also be a cause of /sk/ > /ks/ > /ts/.

I think the final syllable is *nam because rounding before /m/ occurred in a few branches but not others.

My explanation for enʤum is:

*eskʷenam > esʧenum > eʧᵊnum > enʧum > enʤum.
User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 3948
Joined: Tue 14 Aug 2012, 18:32

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Sun 05 Nov 2017, 17:36

My explanation for enʤum: *eskwenam > eskenam > ekenam > ekenom > egenom > eʤnom > enʤom > enʤum
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :fra: 4 :esp: 4 :ind:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]
Auvon
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat 27 Aug 2016, 07:48

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Auvon » Sun 05 Nov 2017, 19:35

After seeing some other guesses, I'm now in favor of initial e (due to fairly widespread voicing of the labvel), so my guess has been changed to
Spoiler:
*eskʷénom which is minimally different from some other guesses but eh.
User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4298
Joined: Thu 20 Nov 2014, 02:27

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 01:54

sangi39 wrote:
Sat 04 Nov 2017, 04:11
Oof! This could be a fun one [:D]

I assume we're guessing grouping as well, or are these all neighbours in an island chain, with Lang1 at one extreme and Lang11 at another?
Spoiler:
If I had to make a preliminary guess, I'd say something like *eskʷeno
Right now Auvon is the closest.
All of you have the two "errors" in common. I'll give it another day and then do the reveal.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
Auvon
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 106
Joined: Sat 27 Aug 2016, 07:48

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Auvon » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 03:53

Hmm, perhaps something like a non-nasal alveolar sonorant followed by (or less likely, following) a nasal vowel, instead of *n? I'll keep my guess the same for now.
User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2664
Joined: Thu 12 Aug 2010, 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 14:33

Annoyingly, since the board's update, the spoiler function no longer works so I can't see what previous guesses were lol (I play this by ignoring everyone else [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
Davush
sinic
sinic
Posts: 413
Joined: Sat 10 Jan 2015, 14:10

Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Davush » Tue 28 Nov 2017, 10:59

Will we get the answer? Seems about the right time for a new challenge if anybody wanted to make one.
Post Reply