Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 15:20

Image

Done, with some last minute changes. Good luck! This is my first try at something like this.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 16:24

Some preliminary thougts on grouping:
Spoiler:
Image

I am not really sure about the C branch and the internal grouping of the A-branch though. I I had to make my first guess it would probably be *etapnigoq
Spoiler:
Edit: And here are some intermediate forms:
A: *etapmiguɢ
A1: *esapʰmiguq
A11: *esapmigoɢ
A12: *sepʰmiguʡ
A2: *depegaog
B: *ɹeippɘ̃gog
B1: *ʋḁi̥bɘ̃gog
B11: *veibɘ̃gog
B21: *rippagɵ
B22: *ribago
C: *tsibẽkeʔ
C1:*sibẽkeh

Maybe this leads me to a new proto form *etepmakuɢ
Edit: I put everything in spoilers. [:D]
Last edited by Creyeditor on Fri 15 Sep 2017, 19:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Fri 15 Sep 2017, 18:53

YAY! New challenge!
Spoiler:
I've tried to group them as best I can (black encircling lines indicate what I think is a definite group, red ones for uncertain ones, and pink for what I think might be a larger grouping. The red lines indicate what I think might be closely related languages within a group:

Image

(for the moment I'm calling them Southern, Eastern, Western, Northern and Polar)

In the Southern group, tone seems to be pitch accent, either flat across the entire word or rising (with a fall beforehand in one language), so I'm not sure it's entirely important to the reconstruction as the moment, but I could be wrong. The final vowel is likely *o or . The possibly movement of the medial vowel backwards and up suggest *agɤ making up the final two syllables. The medial consonant seems to have gone *pp > *p > *v (possibly through intermediate *b) and the first syllable is always *ri. So Proto-Southern *rippagɤ or *rippago (ignoring tone).

The Western group is slightly more interesting. The two most westerly languages likely come from a common *veibɘ̃gog, with final devoicing and loss of nasalisation in the northernmost of the pair. The initial of the Proto-Western language could be , but I'm not sure about the initial vowel and could be a simple *e, lengthening and diphthongising in one area and lowering in another. I'd take a guess at Proto-Western having *ʋebɘ̃gog or maybe even *ʋepɘ̃gog given the devoiced medial in one language.

Proto-Eastern seems to be *tsibʱegeʔ, with the two southern languages simplifying the initial affricate and the most western of those two undergoing something akin to Grimm's Law (breathy > voiced > voiceless > fricative).

Proto-Northern could be *sepʰmigoq. Aspiration being lost in one group, but everything else stays roughly the same. The only struggle I'm having is with the initial /e/ of /esapmigoɴ/.

The Polar group seems to be related, with a little bit of metathesis going on, as well as cluster simplification that makes me think the original word in Proto-Polar was *depmegog (> *depemgog > *depembog > *defemβog > /deʍeβ:aog/)

So that gives us:

Proto-Southern: *rippagɤ ~ *rippago
Proto-Western: *ʋebɘ̃gog ~ *ʋepɘ̃gog
Proto-Eastern: *tsibʱẽgeʔ
Proto-Northern: *sepʰmigoq
Proto-Polar: *depmegog

Proto-Southern and Proto-Western do seem to be more closely related than any other sets of languages, and the gemination in Proto-Southern could be explained in relation to the nasalisation in Proto-Western (and looking at the nearby Proto-Northern) with *ripmagog ~ repmagog.

The initial affricate in Proto-Eastern could be the result of something akin to palatalisation, yielding an earlier *sibʱẽgeʔ, which starts to look suspiciously like Proto-Northern. However, it could also be from an earlier *tʰibʱẽgeʔ, which could also explain the initial *s in Proto-Northern.

I'm going to suggest a Proto-World *tepʰmegoq as an initial guess, with an urheimat somewhere between the Northern and Polar groups (Proto-South-Western coming from either an earlier *zepmagog or *d(z)epmagog)
*tepʰmegoq?

Either that or *depmegoq. This form does requite slightly fewer assumptions if Proto-North-Eastern is a valid group since it would be possible to explain a proto-form as *depmegoq > *tepʰmegoq > *tsepʰmegoq and then work from there, while Proto-South-Western just requires a shift from *d >
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 11:07

Crey, your A group is spot on, for the B group however it is a bit off, I feel you have jumped the gun a bit by making those supergroups (A and B) already. The internal groupings for B2 make sense but they are not perfect.

Your first guess at the proto word is missing some phonetic components (namely to do with voicing).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sangi, Your red and black circles are right on the mark and some of the points you made on the diacronics are pointing you in the right way but I won't elaborate just yet. (Some of your proposed sound changes with no environment are working backwards)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I've got 2-3 clues, with the last being the phonology, if you want the phonology I could post it now.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 13:34

As for me, I don't think I need a clue yet. I think I'll wait some days till I post my third guess.
Spoiler:
Regarding your comment on my grouping. Maybe I should group B21 and B22 with the C branch, based on the quality of the first vowel. Especially eastern B22 because it has 'v' which is voiced just as the cognate consonant in branch C. On the other hand the same is true for the B1 group. Maybe it was originally voiced? Still independent development of initial /r/ does not seem to likely. Wait for my next guess [:D]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 17:17

Spoiler:
I spent about 20 minutes literally just looking at my phone to have another go at this. I get the feeling that the second syllable might actually contain a syllabic nasal, likely *n̩

In the majority of languages this could have become a nasal vowel (or just a plain vowel in the case of the Southern group), but in early Proto-Northern it became *ni in a similar manner to PIE *n̩: in Latin and Greek, later shifting to *mi by means of POA assimilation. In Proto-Polar it remained *n̩, shifting to *m̩ in the southern language under the influence of the preceding *p. In one language it became *ne and in another it became *em.

There's a chance that the syllabic nasal became *an in Proto-Southern. This would a) explain the low or falling tone in the all of the languages and b) account for the survival of *g in the language that contains /v/ (honestly, that has been tripping me up so much).

The initial consonant could have been *z or even , devoicing independently in Proto-Northern and Proto-Eastern (assuming they're not more closely related), fortifying to *d in Proto-Polar, and shifting to *r in Proto-South-Western (a similar change apparently happened in some dialects of Finnish).

The development of breathy voice in the Eastern group is proving to be a massive pain since it doesn't affect *g, suggesting that the earlier sound in the second syllable wasn't plain *b, unless it's tied in somehow with stress, or related in some way to the second vowel.

At the moment I'm of the mind that the original proto-word might have been *ðepn̩goq or possibly even *ðepn̩goɢ (which would explain the disparate voicing all over the map).
Possibly *ðepn̩goɢ?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 17:27

Hmm, I think maybe something along the lines of *tépmɛgʷeq. I'm of the opinion that the voicing is the primary cause of the falling/low tone in sangi's Southern group. (é is stressed)
Edit: Looked at Index Diachronica for some guidance; I'm changing my guess to *tépmagʷaq
Edit: Double Edit: *tépmegʷaq, I think there was some sort of backwards vowel harmony
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Wed 20 Sep 2017, 11:21

Clue 1 of 4:
Spoiler:
The languages presented have no stress, much like French.
Clue 2 of 4:
Spoiler:
You happen upon the village where they use the word /wḁb̥ɘ̃gog/. a cranky senior citizen can be heard using the word /wḁhb̥ɘ̃gog/ instead of /wḁb̥ɘ̃gog/.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Wed 20 Sep 2017, 15:54

Well without any other information regarding out previous guesses, the best I can come up with given then new data is *ðe̤pn̩goɢ, the assumption being that the original vowel carried some sort of "breathy" phonation (which then might explain aspiration and breathy voice in the Southern and Northern groups).
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 20 Sep 2017, 20:41

I think I'll improve my guess to *etepʰbɘ̃kuɢ. This is my last guess, I think.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 00:11

Creyeditor wrote:This is my last guess, I think.
Yeah, I'm struggling to improve on my guesses. I think this might be similar to the last couple of challenges where we'll all have similar answers to begin with and then niggle over small details for a while until someone gets ever so slightly closer than someone else [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 02:21

Hmm, these clues don't do much to help me reformulate my word, but maybe I'm misinterpreting some sound changes. What if w and v in the lower left didn't arise from the *r and thus an intervocalic *t, but rather it was an initial to begin with? That'd give us something along the lines of *wetipmegʷaq
Spoiler:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 11:57

Sangi is the closest.
Qued's latest guess has gotten better.

I'm inclined to give it to Sangi, but I did say I had a phonology.

Vowels:
/i, iː/
/e, eː, o, oː/
/a, aː/

Consonants:
/p, t k/
/b, d, g/
/p', t', k'/
/m, n/
/w, l, r/
/s, z, h/

Syllables:
(C(C))X(C)
X is a vowel or a syllabic /n̩/ or /l̩/
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Thu 21 Sep 2017, 13:35

My last guess would be *otehpn̩gok'
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 14:19

Close, it was /wreːhbn̩gokʼ/.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 15:24

With the most recent hint I probably would have guessed *wetipn̩gak', which isn't much closer than sangi's
Spoiler:
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 16:08

The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).

Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 18:13

sangi39 wrote:The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).

Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
The proto form was /reʍbn̩gokʼ/ which then became your proto "northern" /sehpmigoq'/ (the [r] became voiceless and then s).
And then proto "polar"'s was /deʍbn̩gokʼ/

k' became g only twice, are you confusing yourself with the second last consonant g?

Yes, I am giving this to Sangi.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 20:44

jimydog000 wrote:
sangi39 wrote:The one thing I'd be interested in seeing is how *wr become *s and *d (everything else more or less makes sense, I think, although I'm surprised to see a final *k' become *g so readily in multiple branches).

Oh, and just for clarification, who's being declared the winner?
The proto form was /reʍbn̩gokʼ/ which then became your proto "northern" /sehpmigoq'/ (the [r] became voiceless and then s).
And then proto "polar"'s was /deʍbn̩gokʼ/

k' became g only twice, are you confusing yourself with the second last consonant g?

Yes, I am giving this to Sangi.
Ohhh, well that makes sense, and no, I was thinking of the final *g, but I'd assumed the final low tone in some of the Southern languages was down to a final voiced consonant that dropped out so I thought the final *g ~ *k alternation was much more common than it was.

I can actually post a challenge fairly soon. I've had one saved on my laptop since the last one I came up with [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sat 23 Sep 2017, 22:24

All right then, another challenge requiring the reconstruction of two proto-words, but they should each aid in the reconstruction of te other (or at least that's the hope).

Image



As per usual in this game, I'll be looking both at groupings and accuracy of reconstruction, although I don't have any "hints" prepared as in recent challenges. I'll likely just go over guesses bit by bit as and when they come [:)]

Good luck [:)]


EDIT: Just in case it comes up, the /'t'/ in the southernmost language is a stress marker (') followed by an ejective (/t'/)
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