Quick Diachronics Challenge

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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 00:38

I'm kind of working on it for an hour or two each night after work. My main struggle is keeping everything in a reasonable order [:P] I've been looking at Language B for the last 15 minutes, and I think I can spot a couple of sound changes, just need to get them all down and make sure they make sense.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 25 Dec 2017, 01:03

And for a preliminary guess at the words in the proto-language:
Spoiler:
1: te'lemekʷo
2: 'mposotsi
3: 'kʷoŋotke
4: aŋ'kʷoŋotke
5: 'serew
6: an'serew
7: qilipoŋq
8: ke'ɬep
9: 'tsinitɬeŋ
10: an'setsa

I'm really, really unsure about 1 and 7
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by opipik » Wed 27 Dec 2017, 22:17

CLASSIFICATION
Spoiler:
A and G are very closely related, they can be even dialects of the same language.
C and J are more distantly related to A and G.

D and E are closely related, D did a lot of consonant and vowel elisions, though.
H is more distantly related to these two.

B, F and I are family-level isolates for now.

Code: Select all

─┬┬ A
 │└ G
 ├─ C
 └─ J
─┬┬ D
 │└ E
 └─ H
─── B
─── F
─── I
RECONSTRUCTION (step 1)
Spoiler:
Proto-A,G words:
tʰə̃ː.ə̃.ə.kʷw | ŋ̊ʷaːwːəsəs | ˈkʷʰã.wə.akʼ | aːʔ-ˈkʷʰã.wə.akʼ | səəː | aːʔsəəː | xɨ̃ː.ɨ̃ː.ãʔ | kaʃɨːʔ | ˈsɨːəs | ãsaəs
There were two types of words: balanced-stress and initial-stress.

Sound changes to A
Spoiler:
əː//ə_#
w//_#
w//V_V (if not geminated)
wː/w/_
ʃ/s/_
balanced-stress nouns gain penultimate stress
Sound changes to G
Spoiler:
s//_#
Cʼ//_#
ʔ//_#
ə//Cʷ_w
balanced-stress nouns gain initial stress
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Auvon » Thu 28 Dec 2017, 23:17

Commentary on guesses below, don't open if you don't want to see.
Spoiler:
I'll provide the first round of actual commentary at this point as I just said, so continue at your own risk.
Sangi, I'll address your guesses first; sort of in order of posting.

Overall, consider what's ancestral versus what're innovations especially in stops (including nasals) and vowels. I'm not necessarily saying this is easy (or even possible for all segments) especially with unconditional mergers that aren't entirely uncommon in this challenge. Some other things to consider: stress was strong in the proto-language, look at the vowels of i and f, as well as what be conditioning environments or cheshirization residue sort of stuff. Consider the cross-linguistic extent of a certain series of segments you reconstructed for the proto-language: given the limited extent of this series, it might be better to not include this in the protolanguage, instead replacing it with a related series.

Your reconstruction of two lateral obstruents is interesting, although not quite right – take a look at c. For the thing about stops mentioned in the first blacked out section, neutralizing processes happened generally at a relatively recent level. Take from that as you will.

Karchei:
Overall fairly good, with some segments that could be trivially improved by matching up to "cognate" segments in other languages. You (correctly) guessed that c j are related to the languages in question, so compare to those to see in which respects either language is more conservative or innovative, and use that to refine guesses. Stress can probably be nailed down just looking at the Macro-Tiakwan langs in general. Aside from stress, no word is more than a segment off; most just a single feature; some are exactly right even including stress.

Overall note to both of you (and others): broad classification is generally right for both, Karchei's placing of some language as isolates is probably a better strategy than grouping them, as some languages split off early. A good idea might be to establish better relationships between the "western" langs. Various hints towards this: h obviously was restructured in terms of syllable structure, h and b both are under influence from languages with square ([high] [front] being the only features), resulting in two different but similar mergers of back vowels occuring in these langs. I'll admit this will be quite a challenge.

Many things reduce to zero, typically due to clusters for C and stress for V.
. This is pretty vague looking back at it, but I will issue a more helpful thing in the future if necessary.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 31 Dec 2017, 06:16

I'll be posting my guess soon, most likely tomorrow, as I'll be in for a very slow day at work.

I've gotta say: Bravo, good chap. This is one hell of a maze to sort through.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 01 Jan 2018, 22:33

I've had to take a break over Christmas and New Year (spending time with family, and the shop I work in is open every day of the year), but I'm definitely with Inkcube-Revolver on this one, bravo! Trying to make my way through this is a challenge, but a lot of fun [:D]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Auvon » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 06:30

Quick bump, although I'm sure some are still slowly chipping away at it. If wanted, I can give a few attested epigraphic cognate forms?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Fri 19 Jan 2018, 23:28

Auvon wrote:
Fri 12 Jan 2018, 06:30
Quick bump, although I'm sure some are still slowly chipping away at it. If wanted, I can give a few attested epigraphic cognate forms?
Sorry, late reply, I'm slowly, slowly having a go at this, just been super busy at work (we can't have holiday in December, so the moment January rolls around every week has one or two people off. If it weren't for that, January would actually be pretty quiet). "Chipping" is definitely the word I'd use for it, lol
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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