Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 03 Sep 2017, 22:21

Click wrote:Guys, the Slavic thing is confined to Languages 4 and 5. In those languages, palatalization is also regressive (consonants palatalize in front of a front vowel, not after one).

HINT

There is no in the proto-word. has it origins in an allophonic voiceless vowel that became a fricative.

Spoiler:
ɪ̯ḁ.ke.te. The voiceless vowel becomes *h in 4567, with the resulting *ih palatalising to *iʃ, with *ʃ becoming *s in 6 and 7 (but not 6.5).

In 189, it's the ɪ̯ that drops out, leaving behind ḁ, which aspirated the following consonant in 89. A similar change happens in 23, but the vowel remains voiceless, only aspirating the following consonant in 3.

Oh wait, in Ancient Egyptian, *j become a glottal stop word-initially in unstressed syllables, so that could have happened in 189 and possibly 23. Initial glottal stops could easily drop everywhere, except in 89, where its retention in 9 became important for the development of the palatal click.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 00:12

So here's my next guess. I hope it's not to stupid, I admit that I did not read all the comments very thoroughly.
Spoiler:
Proto-123456789: *eˈkíːtʰɪ̯òd
Proto-67: *sicɪ̯ɔd
6 ˈscɪ̯ɐd
6½ ʃəˈtsɛd
7 ˈsɪ̯ɔd
Proto-1234598: eˈkíːtʰòɪ̯r
Proto-145: *eˈkiːtà
1 ɔˈtʃajər <ɔˈtʃai̯r
Proto-45: *iˈkíːtɑ̀
4ˈʃtʃíːtê
5ʃkɪ̯eːˈtɑ̏ː
Proto-2389: *ˈkáːcʰóɪ̯ɾ

Proto-23: *ˈkéːʃɪ
2ˈkéɪ̯ɦeɪ̯
3ˈxɛːʃɪ
Proto-89: *kacʰóɪ̯ɾ
8ʔaçóɪ̯ɾ
9ǂʰɒ́ɪ̯ɾ
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 17:33

@sangi39:

You're overdoing the first syllable. It is often more plausible to posit conditional changes instead of making words longer than they really were.


@Creyeditor:

If I were you, I'd re-evaluate the way the languages have been grouped.


HINT
sangi39 wrote:The original long vowel *e: becomes a diphthong basically everywhere, varying between *ei and *ie.
There's a good reason why the second vowel's reflexes are mainly diphthongs.
Last edited by Click on Mon 04 Sep 2017, 22:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 19:52

*ikaite?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 20:50

Spoiler:
Other than i̥.ke:.te, I really can't think of anything else it could be.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 22:50

@qwed117:

So close yet so far away. [:(]


@sangi39:

There was no phonemic long vowels in the proto-language.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 23:12

Gaaaah. You know, maybe if I think this through carefully, I should be able to get a better answer.
*i has to be the initial since it is the only yerous (I am now the Lambuzhao) morpheme with palatization.
Stress must come after that syllable since the second syllable is the best preserved with minimal intervocalic voicing, what we'd expect if this underwent a Grimm's like change.
k is the only logical next consonant, unless it's some weird uvular consonant that isn't reconstructible. And I'm certain Aero- doesn't like uvulars, like me.

After that is where it gets more confusing. We know that in 4-7 there's some palatization effect. So /i:/, /ɪ̯eː/, /ɪ̯ɐ/, and /ɪ̯ɔ/ are all from one phoneme, that is a unrounded front vowel. The breaking strongly reminds me of /ɛ/ in the Romance languages, but there is no /ɛ/ in said proto-language and the location would not be conducive to developing /ɛ/ from /e/. As a result this is probably more similar to Southern American English's breaking, meaning the phoneme could be *i. This would parsimonious with 1, 8, and 9, but not so much with 2. More likely is the fact that the breaking process had already happened in the proto-lang, giving us *ia
The next consonant was likely *t since fortition is unlikely, but lenition is, just like the real distribution.
The next vowel troubles me since it has similar results as the previous vowel in some languages, and drastically different in others. The presence of /ɑ̏ː/ strongly suggests it might have been a long i in that language family, but other cognates show a further open vowel, meaning that the vowel must be *e
*ikiate is ugly, but I think it'll do
*ikiate
Last edited by qwed117 on Mon 04 Sep 2017, 23:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 23:25

Qwed got it right!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 04 Sep 2017, 23:35

Ok so for grouping I think there's definitely 14567, 23 and 89
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 00:03

I was do damn close!

The only reason I thought the middle vowel was *e was because of what I said about allophonic lengthening, which you said was correct, so I assumed the guess at it being *e~*e: was right.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 00:32

There was allophonic lengthening. However, the vowel phoneme that did lengthen was [ɪ̯a], not [e], just saying.

I'll post a family tree for the languages tomorrow. After that, it's up to qwed to make a new challenge. [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 11:38

Click wrote:I'll post a family tree for the languages tomorrow.
Done. If the picture does not display correctly, copy its URL and paste it in the address bar.

Image
Edit: It was *iˈkɪ̯ate, not *aˈkɪ̯ate.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Tue 05 Sep 2017, 14:00

Click wrote:There was allophonic lengthening. However, the vowel phoneme that did lengthen was [ɪ̯a], not [e], just saying.

I'll post a family tree for the languages tomorrow. After that, it's up to qwed to make a new challenge. [:)]
Ohhh, then I misunderstood [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Wed 06 Sep 2017, 21:07

Image

Good luck
(I have 5 pre-prepared hints. Please tell me how many of them you think I should release)
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Click » Wed 06 Sep 2017, 21:36

Just a quick guess:
Spoiler:
*kæðin
Last edited by Click on Thu 07 Sep 2017, 11:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Wed 06 Sep 2017, 22:36

Here's my guess at grouping and proto-word.
Spoiler:
*kadel
Image
Last edited by Creyeditor on Sat 09 Sep 2017, 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 03:43

I'm about to go to bed, so I couldn't work on this as much as I wanted, but:
Spoiler:
Image

I'm having trouble placing the two ungrouped words, but I have a couple of ideas.

Looking at it, groups 1, 2 and 3 are likely to be closely related, and 4 and 7 seem to be closely related to each other as well. To the south,
I suspect that 5 and 6 have something to do with each other. That nasal vowel and the nasal initials in group 6, as well as the final laterals point to some kind of larger grouping. Group 8 seems to stand somewhat alone in the central-western region, but it shares traits of nearby languages in groups 7 and 3.

If I had to take a stab at branching I'd say:

Code: Select all

PROTO -+-> 1238 -+-> 8
       |         |
       |         +-> 123 -+-> 12 -+-> 1
       |                  |       |
       |                  |       +-> 2
       |                  |
       |                  +-> 3
       |
       +-> 4567  +-> 56   -+-> 5
                 |         |
                 |         +-> 6
                 |
                 +-> 47   -+-> 4
                           |
                           +-> 7
The final lateral appearing in two different location points to a final *l, with branches 1, 2 and 3 shifting this two *n.

The medial consonant was likely *d, palatalising independently in the north and south (pointing to a front second vowel).

The initial consonant could have been *k, but *ŋ̊ has the potential to explain a lot more of the initials seen on the island (the disparate voicing of the initial, the random nasal vowel in group 5).

If I had to hazard a rough guess, I'd say something like *ŋ̊adel
Spoiler:
tl;dr - *ŋ̊adel?
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 10:54

Wow, the challenge led Sangi and me to very similar results [:)]
Spoiler:
Here's my explanation for the nasalization. Basically Proto *k became *x>*h in some Proto-South language followed by rhinoglottophilic h>ŋ in group 6. This might explain the nasal vowel in 5, either per contact or via ŋ>ɣ.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by jimydog000 » Thu 07 Sep 2017, 10:59

I may feel up to putting more time into it over the weekend, but it looks like */kayzen/ - */kayðen/ to me right now.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Sat 09 Sep 2017, 15:04

Hints 1 and 2 below:
Hint 1:
Spoiler:
Brown areas are impassable mountains; grey areas are depressions (which tend to be deserts)
Hint 2:
Spoiler:
Not all languages that look particularly similar are indeed in the same family
Right now someone is actually very close to getting the language right. I won't say who.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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