Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 22 Jul 2018 21:33

I am going to reply a bit to Sangi's post, because it was so interesting to read and so detailed. Everyone feel free to read it or ignore it.
Spoiler:
sangi39 wrote:
21 Jul 2018 16:01
Proto-K is harder to work out, but it does seem to be something along the lines of *keHә̃, with word-initial stress, with some particularly weak medial consonant, possibly *x, which dropped out in two languages, with the hiatus being broken with an intervening *j in /kɛju/.
On the other hand there is the Spanish j>x, right?

sangi39 wrote:
21 Jul 2018 16:01
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Group W is most closely related to the /f/-initial languages, although /feɹ/ still seems out of place amongst these.
Does z>ɹ look like an unatural change to you? Sure, it would be more probable intervocallically, but maybe that's what it was before the split? I.e. Proto-WF: *wezә and a tree like [WF [/feɹ/] [W-group] [F-group] ].
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 23 Jul 2018 00:38

Spoiler:
Creyeditor wrote:
22 Jul 2018 21:33
sangi39 wrote:
21 Jul 2018 16:01
Proto-K is harder to work out, but it does seem to be something along the lines of *keHә̃, with word-initial stress, with some particularly weak medial consonant, possibly *x, which dropped out in two languages, with the hiatus being broken with an intervening *j in /kɛju/.
On the other hand there is the Spanish j>x, right?
I had considered that, and it would tie in with the palatal off-glide hypothesis for the /f/-initial languages, but for some reason I'd disregarded it. Honestly not sure why [:|] I think it was because of the debuccalisation in one language and the /j/ in the other coming after a front vowel. For some reason I went down the "this /j/ is an insertion, rather than, say, a weakening of fricative. I suppose *keʃә̃ ~ *keʒә̃, from earlier *keisә̃ ~ *keizә̃ isn't entirely out of the question.

If that were the case, I'd revise Proto-HK to *keisәn ~ *keizәn, the diphthong simplifying in Proto-H, still with the same *z > *r and *k > *h changes (which now that I think about it, is pretty Germanic). By extension, Proto-HK-Th would be, well, *keisәn ~ *keizәn.


Creyeditor wrote:
22 Jul 2018 21:33
sangi39 wrote:
21 Jul 2018 16:01
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Group W is most closely related to the /f/-initial languages, although /feɹ/ still seems out of place amongst these.
Does z>ɹ look like an unatural change to you? Sure, it would be more probable intervocallically, but maybe that's what it was before the split? I.e. Proto-WF: *wezә and a tree like [WF [/feɹ/] [W-group] [F-group] ].

I'd more or less had that thought, i.e. that the presence of a rhotic there was more easily explained intervocalically. The entire branch shares the feature of a lost final vowel, and if they are related to the languages of Group W, then that loss is a feature that most likely goes back to Proto-WF.

At least for me, the only way I could see an original rhotic becoming /z/ would be something like palatalisation (which the F branch does seem to have), but then palatalisation would have to be a feature of Group W and most of Group F with the exception of one language, which would instead suggest two independent instances of palatalisation, one in Group W and another in one branch of Group F.

I suppose /z/ > /ɹ/ word-finally isn't all that odd now that I think about it. Something similar happened in Old Norse.

Seems there was a Proto-WF, in that case, which might have been something like *hʷeɪz, which would give Proto-W *hʷeɪz and Proto-F *ɸeɪz. with two branches, one with *ɸeɪr and the other with *ɸeɪʒ.

I'd say that would, overall, give a proto-word of *kʷeɪsәn ~ *kʷeɪzәn, although, again, the actually voicing of that medial sibilant is causing me some trouble, since it could very easily be either and give the same results.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 23 Jul 2018 02:03

First hint:
Inventory
/m n t k d g/
/f s z h/
/w j r/

/a i o u/
(This should simplify a lot of the speculation)

Sangi is the closest, so far.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 23 Jul 2018 02:52

qwed117 wrote:
23 Jul 2018 02:03
First hint:
Inventory
/m n t k d g/
/f s z h/
/w j r/

/a i o u/
(This should simplify a lot of the speculation)

Sangi is the closest, so far.
Oh wow, I wasn't expecting that inventory. I'm about to head to bed, certainly soon enough that I'll not have enough time to give this some real though, but my preliminary reconciliation would be *koisan ~ *koizan
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Jul 2018 13:35

Here is my second guess:

Proto-Word: *kairion
Spoiler:
Based on Sandhi's grouping

Proto-WTH: *kɔiz

W-group

**koiz
*wez
ʍøz
wɛz
wez
veiz

TH-group
**kɛz
*θɛz
θæz
θɜz
θes
θez

Proto-FHK: kʷerɪɔn

F-group:

**feri
*feʑ
feʃ
feʝ
fɛʝ
fej
feɹ
ɸɛɪ

Proto-HK: *kɛrɪɔn

H-group
*hə'rɪn
hə'rɪn
ha'ran
eri:
e'ry

K-Group
*kɛjɔn
kɪˈɑ̃n
kɛju
kexa
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 23 Jul 2018 15:58

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

Proto-Lang
  *kaizon
 > Proto-North
     *koiza > kʷeiz
   > Proto-WF
       *hʷeiz
     > Proto-W
         *hʷeiz
     > Proto-F
         *ɸeiz
 > Proto-South
     *keizon
    > Proto-HK-Th
        *keizon
      > Proto-HK
          *keizon
        > Proto-H
            *keron > *heron
        > Proto-K
            *keʒon > *keʒõ
      > Proto-Th
          *kʲeza > *θeza
Group H languages are split into two groups, one, to the north, which shifted *o to *a and another, to the south which shifted it to *u, with both branches shifting the stress of the word to the second syllable afterwards. In the southern *u branch, this vowel fronted to *y, which then derounded in the two more easterly languages.

Group K languages underwent a similar change, where the nasal became either or , with nasalisation remaining only in one language.

Group F languages split depending on the treatment of the sequence *-iz-, the continental branch shifting the *z to an *r, the insular branch merging the two sounds into , much like in Proto-K

Group W languages do seem to show a split based on the voicing of the initial *hʷ, with an eastern branch which voices it to *w, while the western branch retains its voicelessness

Group Th languages seem largely homogenous, although I'd hazard a guess at there being a north/south divide, the south maintaining the initial *e, with the south lowering or backing it due to the presence of final *a, with both branches losing the final vowel afterwards.

For the moments, I'm assuming the medial consonant was *z in the proto-word, since having it be *s seems to add more steps than fewer (two instances of final devoicing vs. what would seem to be four independent instances of voicing across several multiple groups)
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 23 Jul 2018 18:29

An interesting race. Let's see who will be closer this time [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 25 Jul 2018 05:51

Sangi's very close,


Next hint:
According to Wikipedia,
"Although not as typical of sound change as lenition, fortition may occur in prominent positions, such as at the beginning of a word or stressed syllable; as an effect of reducing markedness; or due to morphological leveling."
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 25 Jul 2018 14:52

With this hint my next guess would be fairon, although this would mean word initial voicing, which I do not really like that much.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 25 Jul 2018 15:39

Spoiler:
qwed117 wrote:
25 Jul 2018 05:51
Sangi's very close,


Next hint:
According to Wikipedia,
"Although not as typical of sound change as lenition, fortition may occur in prominent positions, such as at the beginning of a word or stressed syllable; as an effect of reducing markedness; or due to morphological leveling."
Hmmm, if we're dealing with fortition, then there's a few different ways this could go:

1) Initial fortition: Could come in two forms, either *h ~ *x > *k or *g > *k
2) Medial fortition: Could likely only in one form, *r > *z

If I assume the branching is correct (nothing so far has been said to suggest it isn't), then initial fortition occurs a total of once, in the southern grouping, most likely in the form *h > *k (and then back to *h again).

Medial lenition would appear to have occurred several times independently, once in the northern grouping or twice if the final rhotic in feɹ is a retention (once in Proto-W, then again in Insular F), and then again independently in Proto-K and Proto-Th (assuming Th branches off from Proto-HK-Th before Groups H and K diverged). There is the possibility that this sound change could have occurred as a wave across the entire area barring the north and south-west, but I'm more comfortable with branching developments.

Given this, I'd hazard a guess at the proto-word being *haizon, with *kairon being, to me, a less likely second option.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 25 Jul 2018 17:28

And another option would of course be *gairon, but this is actually not my guess. I find it unconvincing.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 28 Jul 2018 02:52

hint: *g was often pronounced /ɣ/
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 28 Jul 2018 10:13

qwed117 wrote:
28 Jul 2018 02:52
hint: *g was often pronounced /ɣ/
Looks like I'm saying *gaizon then [:P]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » 31 Jul 2018 03:15

sangi39 wrote:
28 Jul 2018 10:13
qwed117 wrote:
28 Jul 2018 02:52
hint: *g was often pronounced /ɣ/
Looks like I'm saying *gaizon then [:P]
[tick]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 31 Jul 2018 16:07

qwed117 wrote:
31 Jul 2018 03:15
sangi39 wrote:
28 Jul 2018 10:13
qwed117 wrote:
28 Jul 2018 02:52
hint: *g was often pronounced /ɣ/
Looks like I'm saying *gaizon then [:P]
[tick]
So, *gaizon was the correct proto-word?

Would you mind sharing how the word developed and how the languages are related, if you have time? [:)]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 06 Aug 2018 17:00

I'm assuming it's correct, then, and here's a new challenge [:)]

Image
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » 06 Aug 2018 19:00

Here is my guess. The grouping is probably a bit far off, but I am pretty satisfied with my proto-word, for a first guess at least. Oh and sorry for the fancy brushes.
Spoiler:
Image
----Proto-word: q'ə'gar

---Pre-proto-spark: k'ə'gar
--Proto-spark: k'ə'ga:r

-Proto-sausage: *gu'ŋa:r
ŋã'gas
ɦa'ŋgaz
ɦu'ʔar
gu'ʔa:r

-Proto-scratch: *k'ə'ga:r
k'i'jɔ:r
kə'wɔ:r
ka'gaʒ
k'a'ŋas

---Pre-proto smoke: *q'əwar
--Proto-smoke: *'q'war

-Proto-vine: *'q'aur
q'aur
'qɔ:ar
'ʔauʁ
'ʔa:r

-Proto-star: *'k'uol
'k'u:l
'k'uol

-Proto-pepper: 'p'aw
'baw
'p'aw
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » 06 Aug 2018 22:00

Are the words [ˈk'uol], [ˈq'aur], [ˈqɔːar], and [ˈʔauʁ] monosyllabic or disyllabic? I tried giving this a go, but I got caught up on that.

(Post #9994.)

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 06 Aug 2018 22:23

shimobaatar wrote:
06 Aug 2018 22:00
Are the words [ˈk'uol], [ˈq'aur], [ˈqɔːar], and [ˈʔauʁ] monosyllabic or disyllabic? I tried giving this a go, but I got caught up on that.

(Post #9994.)
Monosyllabic [:)] Good luck!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » 09 Aug 2018 14:24

I'll respond to Creyeditor's guess for the moment, since it's been a few days:
Spoiler:
(using first-level, second-level, third-level, etc. to refer to increasingly older and broader groupings, e.g. West Germanic would be first-level, Germanic second-level, Indo-European third level)

1) You've got the first-level groupings for the languages on the north-western island correct
2) The four languages on the south of the main island do form a valid second-level grouping
3) The other languages do fall into similar groupings, but be aware that some sound correspondences are the result of waves rather than branching.

As for the proto-word... you're about two-fifths to one-half correct, depending on how I measure it.
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