Quick Diachronics Challenge

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Inkcube-Revolver
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 22:10

One thing I do like about these games, though, is that it shows off, at least on a simplified scale, how you can get different reconstructions based on the same data using different ideas about how the languages are related and how they split.
Exactly, 100% agreed! It's been really helpful in opening my faceholes to different possibilities when dealing with protolanguages, I have a few I've been revamping nearly every week because of different angles with reconstructing protoforms. I've actually found a new way to tackle changes in one protolang because of debuccalization and rhinoglottophilia being new-to-me concepts.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 22:11

[q] was the only thing I got right, apparently... That [æe] diphthong reminded me of vowel colouring in Arabic, and I knew that [q] became debuccalized very easily.
Regardless, good call, Ashtâr!
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 22:21

I am obviously up for another round.

It's interesting to be on the other side and see people coming up with all those exotic branching possibilities and curious sound changes that actually make a certain sense. Like the division based on whether they kept or not the medial nasal or the nasal harmony idea.
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Sun 19 Feb 2017, 22:26

loglorn wrote:I am obviously up for another round.

It's interesting to be on the other side and see people coming up with all those exotic branching possibilities and curious sound changes that actually make a certain sense. Like the division based on whether they kept or not the medial nasal or the nasal harmony idea.
I know! It's art mimicking life in that real-world languages display patterns and quirks that are mostly superficial, and the human flaw of finding validation in patterns makes it all the more nonplussed when proven wrong or misguided.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Harkani » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 04:14

Because no one else wants to, I will.

Image

I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am

1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false

Good Luck.
"You can rant all you want about how amazing the video game industry would be if only you controlled it, but all you're accomplishing is confirming my image of you as a total crank." - Micamo 2011
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 04:19

Harkani wrote:Because no one else wants to, I will.

I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am

1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false

Good Luck.
Your hints are evil. And also:
sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 05:05

loglorn wrote:
Harkani wrote:Because no one else wants to, I will.

I'll give a few hints because that's the kind of person I am

1: They are ALL related
2: The proto-language had some sort of tone or voice modality
3: There was an OPTIONAL suffix
4: The original word was bi-syllabic
5: One of the above is false

Good Luck.
Your hints are evil. And also:
sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow
Blame me. I told him to make a challenge for the *other* thread (since he won the reconstruction there), but I think I pointed to this one.
Edit: I pointed to the right thread. Still my fault, because I didn't realize we were using this thread for that stuff, and I thought the two threads were working in parallel, so I fit afraid that thread had died. Moral: Read the discussion.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 14:56

If Harkani's challenge hasn't been taken up in the other thread, or if Adarain wants to take over, I'm fine with that. I know I said I'd try to come up with something today, but my depression and anxiety are really, really getting to me right now.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 16:55

sangi39 wrote: Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow, if anyone's up for a new challenge?
No objections here, I'm certainly gonna want to provide a challenge like this in the future but I'm not there yet. Go ahead.
Edit: Oh someone's already done so anyway, didn't see the new page :P
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 17:04

I don't know if we are allowed to answer this, but my guess is:
Spoiler:
ɠʷɛ*.gʲa
the asterisk is some kind of tone or modality.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 18:19

qwed117 wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Unless Adarain has any objections, I can try to throw something together tomorrow
Blame me. I told him to make a challenge for the *other* thread (since he won the reconstruction there), but I think I pointed to this one.
Edit: I pointed to the right thread. Still my fault, because I didn't realize we were using this thread for that stuff, and I thought the two threads were working in parallel, so I fit afraid that thread had died. Moral: Read the discussion.
Also my fault, my objective was to have both threads working at the same time, too.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Inkcube-Revolver » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 18:20

Also @Harkani, that's a perdy map you got right der'.
I like my languages how I like my women: grammatically complex with various moods and tenses, a thin line between nouns and verbs, and dozens upon dozens of possible conjugations for every single verb.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by loglorn » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 19:05

If sangi and Adarain do not oppose we will take up on Harkani's challenge
Diachronic Conlanging is the path to happiness, given time. [;)]

Gigxkpoyan Languages: CHÍFJAEŚÍ RETLA TLAPTHUV DÄLDLEN CJUŚËKNJU ṢATT

Other langs: Søsøzatli Kamëzet
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 19:37

I suspect *kʷe˥.'keʔʷ

I suspect there might be something in between e (of the first syllable) and the following k, but I'm not completely sure. The final glottals is a guess to explain forms like k:ew, k'eu and hio˥˩ in one phoneme, but it fails to adequately explain forms like pejei, which I'm putting as caused by stress.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 20:05

qwed117 wrote:I suspect *kʷe˥.'keʔʷ

I suspect there might be something in between e (of the first syllable) and the following k, but I'm not completely sure. The final glottals is a guess to explain forms like k:ew, k'eu and hio˥˩ in one phoneme, but it fails to adequately explain forms like pejei, which I'm putting as caused by stress.
It could be creaky voice on the first syllable. IIRC, this can lead to low tone and/or glottalisation of the syllable if it isn't just dropped.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Clio » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 21:49

I'm going to posit something like gʰøʔ˥ with the optional suffix ge˩, but there are a few forms that I'm struggling to account for. /gʰ/ is how I'm accounting for various reflexes of the first syllables' onsets, from fricatives to voiced and unvoiced stops to semivowels.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Harkani » Mon 20 Feb 2017, 23:15

Two last hints.

I derived these words from the proto-language. Use them to find the word in question.

k͡piː˥˩zə˩
k͡pʲeː˩zʲə˩
hjeu˧˩
çew˥˩
ʔʲø̰
c͡çœ̰

You guys are also fairly close, but for the wrong reasons. I'm impressed at your efforts. I'll give the answer sometime tomorrowthis week/month.
Last edited by Harkani on Tue 21 Feb 2017, 18:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Adarain » Tue 21 Feb 2017, 15:50

Harkani wrote:I'll give the answer sometime tomorrow.
Please let us guess for a while first :/

I'm currently at a tentative *kʷʃø̰(gVj) but I'm still working on actually reconstructing stuff, so don't comment on that pls (even if it happens to be perfect). Certainly gonna need some more hours to get some good things.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Linguifex » Tue 21 Feb 2017, 23:00

My guess:
Spoiler:
The proto-form was *kʷ’yʔ˥gu˩.
  • *kʷ’-: I reconstruct a labiovelar ejective. /pʃwɛ˥˩/, I felt, was very strong evidence of this—a shift of labiovelar to velar, then palatalization of the same preceding a front vowel (I find the /w/ here is most likely a remnant of the decomposition of the vowel). I suppose an ejective due to the forms /k’ee/, /k’eu/, and /kːew/ (I assume this is supposed to be a fortis stop); there is no apparent motivation for generating an ejective here (unless we suppose an initial syllable that was somehow lost, à la Itelmen, without trace in most of the other languages).
  • *-y-: I reconstruct *y for the vocalic segment in the first syllable primarily on the basis of so much palatalization of the initial consonants and the attestation of front-rounded vowels and mixed-backness diphthongs. The form /cʉʔ/ is a bit of a problem—I thought this original vowel was in fact , but this fails to explain the /c/ where so many other languages have a velar here. If an original *y backed to /ʉ/, one might even get the /ʌ/ from /ʃʌ˥i˩/.
  • *-ʔ-: I reconstruct a glottal stop here. /xeːʔga/ indicates that a cluster existed—it would be tempting to explain the glottal stop present in the other forms as a shift *-k- > /ʔ/, but the biconsonantal cluster precludes this possibility.
  • *-g-: See above. I postulate *g and not *k here on the basis of the /j/ in /ʃjœ˥ja˥˩/.
  • *-u: I reconstruct *u with the following reasoning. We have reason to believe that a back vowel existed in final position (/k’eu/, /kːew/, /keu/). The fronting of /u/ is a fairly common sound change, more plausible than is backing. Given the preponderance of front vowels in final position (or diphthongs with frontal offglides), I would submit that in these languages some sort of fronting occurred.
  • Tones: Of those languages with tones, most show either a high or falling tone on the initial syllable. Therefore I propose that the first syllable of the proto-form had high tone and the second low tone; if the medial consonants were deleted, or if some sort of tone sandhi were involved, these could create contours.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by qwed117 » Wed 22 Feb 2017, 00:05

I think I've realized my mistake. Assuming that Taraiph was in fair spirits, and joking with his hints was a mistake. The word is indeed bisyllabic, the words are all related and there was an optional suffix. There was no voicing modality other than voiced-voiceless.

So all consonants are voiceless, and vowels voiced.

This means that ke.ɨ̹ʔ is the base root in all languages. It explains forms like, pejei etc. (assuming syllabification of pe.je.i). The prefixing and postfixing of kʷɨ/kʷʲe is responsible for the other forms. While my model can successfully account for the diachronic development of the individual specie, it cannot account for phonetic developments on the same scale. (The actual order of sound changes has not been evaluated for parsimony and relation)

ke.ɨ̹ʔ>ke.ɨ̹>xe.o>he.o>hio (hi.o) (alternatively kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲe.e.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeː.ɨ̹ʔ>keːo>xeːo>heːo>hio)
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲe.geʔ>gʷʲe.eʔ>gʷʲeʔ>gʷʲe˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ̹ʔ>gʷege.ɨ>wege.ɨ>wegei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲekiʔ>kʲe.iʔ>ʃɨ.iʔ>ʃʌ˥.i˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷexe.ɨ̹ʔ>peɣeɨ̹ʔ>pejei
ke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ʔ>cʉʔ
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨ̹ke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨ˥xe.ɨ̹ʔ˩>tɕə˥.xe.ɨ̹h˩>tɕə˥.xih˩>tɕə˥ih˩>tɕəih˥˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕe.ɨ̹ʔ>tɕɨtɕeʔ>tɕə˥.tɕe˩>tɕəʔ˥.tɕe˩>ɕəʔ˥.ɕe˩
kʷʲɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨxe.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷɨː.e.ɨ̹˩>ɟʷɨː˩>ɟʷəː˩>ɟʷa˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ɟœke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœɣe.ɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ.jɨ̹ʔ>ʃjœ˥.jɨ̹˩>ʃjœ˥.jə˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˩>ʃjœ˥.ja˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøke.ɨ̹ʔ>pøikei>pøiʔei
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>pʷʲe˥ke.ɨ̹˩>pkʷʲe˥.ɨ̹˩>pʃwe.ɨ̹˥˩>pʃwɛ˥˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>ʍʲexe.ɨʔ>ʍixe.ɨʔ>ʍiɨʔ>ʍɨʔ>ʍɨ˩>ʍə˩>ʍɚ˩
kʷʲeke.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲege.ɨ̹ʔ>kʷʲegjeʔ>kʷʲe˥gje˩>kʷʲe˥gje˥˩>>gje˥˩
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>keːʔkʷɨ>xeːʔgʷɨ>xeːʔgʷə>xeːʔ.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’e.e
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>k’eu
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>xe.uʔgʷɨ>xyʔgʷə>xy.ga
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>kːew
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩wʲe˥>wʲe˥>wei˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷʲe>xə˩ʍʲe˥>ʍʲe˥>çjɛ˥
ke.ɨ̹ʔkʷɨ>eʔkʷɨ>eʔkɨ̹>ʔke.ɨ̹>keu
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.
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