Quick Diachronics Challenge

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GrandPiano
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by GrandPiano » Sun 16 Sep 2018, 01:48

It looks like I'm not likely to have time to do another attempt in the near future, so if you're waiting for me, you can go ahead and respond to the other guesses.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2
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sangi39
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 16 Sep 2018, 14:29

GrandPiano wrote:
Sun 16 Sep 2018, 01:48
It looks like I'm not likely to have time to do another attempt in the near future, so if you're waiting for me, you can go ahead and respond to the other guesses.
Thanks for letting us know [:)] I'm planning on holding off on commenting until Shimobaatar submits another guess, that way it's fair on everybody (although I think the only other person to respond to is Kawdek, besides Creyeditor's final submission).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 16 Sep 2018, 16:25

So sorry to have kept everyone waiting for so long. Real life's been busy. I did want to give this another shot, though, so I threw this together between doing laundry and getting ready for work this morning.

sangi39, I did my best to make adjustments based on your feedback, but as you can see, I didn't really know what to do once I got to the 3rd level groupings.
Spoiler:
Group 1A:
-[ˈbaw]
-[ˈp'aw]
< *[ˈp'awɫ]

Group 1B:
-[ˈk'uo̯l]
-[ˈk'uːl]
< *[ˈk'uːl]

Group 2A:
1A *[ˈp'awɫ]
1B *[ˈk'uːl]
< **[ˈkʷ'uːl]

Group 1C:
-[ˈq'au̯r]
-[ˈqɔːa̯r]
< *[q'au̯r]

Group 1D:
-[ˈʔau̯ʁ]
-[ˈʔaːr]
< *[ˈʔau̯r]

Group 2B:
1C *[q'au̯r]
1D *[ˈʔau̯r]
< **[ˈq'uːr]

Group 1E:
-[k'iˈjɔːr]
-[kə'wɔːr]
< *[k'iˈwɔːr]

Group 1F:
-[ɦuˈʔar]
-[guˈʔaːr]
< *[guˈʔar]

Group 2C:
1E *[k'iˈwɔːr]
1F *[guˈʔar]
< **[k'uˈʔɔr]

Group 1G:
-[kaˈgaʒ]
-[k'aˈŋas]
< *[k'aˈŋaz]

Group 1H:
-[ŋãˈgas]
-[ɦaˈŋgaz]
< *[gaŋˈgaz]

Group 2D:
1G *[k'aˈŋaz]
1H *[gaŋˈgaz]
< **[k'oˈŋaz]

Group 3/4:
2A **[ˈkʷ'uːl]
2B **[ˈq'uːr]
2C **[k'uˈʔɔr]
2D **[k'oˈŋaz]
< ***[k'uˈʔɔr]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 17 Sep 2018, 00:02

That's okay [:)] As I said before, I was in no rush.

I'll go throw feedback properly tomorrow (heading to bed now), but with Shimobaatar's guess of *k'uˈʔɔr, I'm declaring them the winner, since the only thing wrong with it is the vowels, and even then, only slightly. The actual proto-word was *k'oˈʔar.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 22 Sep 2018, 02:10

Oh, wow, I honestly didn't expect to "win". I'll try to prepare something as quickly as possible, while still hopefully making it somewhat of a challenge. Hopefully I'll be able to post it shortly after we get feedback for this round (no rush, of course!). [:D]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 23 Sep 2018, 14:50

Sorry, ended up going to Whitby for a bit. Here's the way the family split:

Code: Select all

 kʼoˈʔar
  > kʼuˈʔar
    > kʼuˈʔar
      > guˈʔar
        > guˈʔaːr
        > ɦuˈʔar
      > kʼəˈaːr > kʼəˈɔːr
        > kəˈwɔːr
        > kʼiˈjɔːr
    > kʼuˈal
      > ˈkʼwal > ˈkʷʼal > ˈkʼʷaw
        > ˈpʼaw
        > ˈbaw
      > ˈkʼuəl
        > ˈkʼuːl
        > ˈkʼuol
  > kʼaˈʔar
    > kʼaˈar
      > ˈqaːr
        > ˈqɔːar
        > ˈʔaːr
      > ˈqʼaːr
        > ˈʔauʁ
        > ˈqʼaur
    > kʼaˈŋaz
      > kʼaˈŋaz
        > kʼaˈŋas
        > kaˈgaʒ
      > gaˈŋgaz
        > ɦaˈŋgaz
        > ŋãˈgas
Image
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 06 Oct 2018, 16:30

Hello, everyone! Sorry this took so long. Real life and school and all that.

Anyway, I hope this won't be too easy (or too hard). I unfortunately don't have the ability to make a map, so I'm just going to list the words out from west to east (A being the westernmost form and P being the easternmost). Hopefully that's alright.

A [ˈkeːn.da.ʒis]
B [ˈkyd.da.ʃiʃ]
C [ˈcoʊ̯.nə.çiː]
D [ˈkjoz.na.çaɪ̯]
E [ˈod͡ʒ.na.ŋis]
F [ˈpoɲ.na.is]
G [ˈwøɪ̯d.nəçː]
H [ˈʍeɪ̯t.n̥i]
I [ʉˈlɔn.d͡ʑɛɪ̯]
J [wuˈrõ.ɟæ.i]
K [ˈpʰoɲ.ɲæː]
L [ˈbʁoɪ̯.næɰ]
M [ˈqõ.ɲɛː]
N [ˈk͡xɔ̃.ɲaː]
O [ˈgruː.ɟã.ʑi]
P [ˈkʂɑː.ɲaːɪ̯]
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 16:26

I need to go over this a bit more when I have time, but as a preliminary guess I'm going with something like *ˈkʷroin.na.his
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 18:01

sangi39 wrote:
Sun 07 Oct 2018, 16:26
I need to go over this a bit more when I have time, but as a preliminary guess I'm going with something like *ˈkʷroin.na.his
Well, uh… that's actually spot on. The word in the protolanguage was [ˈkʷroɪ̯n.na.his], the only difference being how we transcribe things.

Would you mind posting the process of how you reached your conclusion? I'd be interested in seeing if I can figure out where I went so wrong.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Sun 07 Oct 2018, 20:18

shimobaatar wrote:
Sun 07 Oct 2018, 18:01
sangi39 wrote:
Sun 07 Oct 2018, 16:26
I need to go over this a bit more when I have time, but as a preliminary guess I'm going with something like *ˈkʷroin.na.his
Well, uh… that's actually spot on. The word in the protolanguage was [ˈkʷroɪ̯n.na.his], the only difference being how we transcribe things.

Would you mind posting the process of how you reached your conclusion? I'd be interested in seeing if I can figure out where I went so wrong.
Spoiler:
Well to start I had:

A [ˈkeːn.da.ʒis] (intervocalic voicing of *ʃ, allophonic lengthening before coda *n, derounding of *ø)
B [ˈkyd.da.ʃiʃ] (raising of *ø, regressive assimilation of *n to [d])
< [ˈkøn.da.ʃis]

C [ˈcoʊ.nə.çiː] (*kj > [c], reduction of post-tonic *a)
D [ˈkjoz.na.çaɪ] (diphthongisation of *iː)
< [ˈkjoZ.na.çiː]

<< [ˈkøn.na.çis] (*nd vs. *Zn suggests some sort of dissimilatory process, one regressive, one progressive, breaking of *ø > *jo, fronting of *ç, loss of final *s with compensatory lengthening)



E [ˈod͡ʒ.na.ŋis] (loss of initial *p, denasalisation of *ɲ, rhinoglottaphilia)
F [ˈpoɲ.na.is] (loss of *ʔ)
< [ˈpoɲ.na.ʔis]

G [ˈwøɪd.nəçː] (voicing of *ʍ, I think maybe frication of final *i
H [ˈʍeɪt.n̥i] (I think maybe full loss of ə, leading to a *dnç cluster which becomes devoiced, derounding of *ø)
< [ˈʍøɪd.nə.çi]

<< [ˈkʷoɪn.na.his] (frication of *kʷ in GH, as well as rounding of *o before *ɪ, dissimilation again, and loss of final *s, then ɪn > ɲ and *kʷ > *p in EF)



I [ʉˈlɔn.d͡ʑɛɪ] (fronting of *u, raising of *æ, and *r > [l])
J [wuˈrõ.ɟæ.i] (glide prosthesis, nasalisation and loss of coda *n)
< [uˈron.ɟæ.i] < < [ˈwron.ɟæ.i]?

K [ˈpʰoɲ.ɲæː] (loss of final *ɣ, *n > [ɲ] through progressive assimilation, not sure what's going on with [pʰ])
L [ˈbʁoɪ.næɰ] (lenition of final *ɣ, gutturalisation of *r)
< [ˈproɲ.næɣ] ~ [ˈproj.næɰ] (the [ɲ] in K could either be a retention or an innovation)

<< [ˈproɲ.næɦi] ~ [ˈkʷroɲ.næɦi] (not sure what the initial sound be, but both seem equally likely, the glottal fricative was either originally voiced or only became voiced in KL, while IJ seems to have undergone *ɲ.n > *ɲ.ɲ > *ɲ.ɟ > *n.ɟ)



M [ˈqõ.ɲɛː] (the *kχ > [q] by place assimilation, raising of *aː?)
N [ˈk͡xɔ̃.ɲaː] (lowering of lowering of õ)
< [ˈkχõ.ɲaː]

O [ˈgruː.ɟã.ʑi] (regressive voicing of *k, the nasal element of *ɲ transfers to the following vowel, hiatus > *j > [ʑ])
P [ˈkʂɑː.ɲaːɪ] (frication and devoicing of of *r, *a.i > [aːɪ])
< [ˈkroː.ɲa.i]

<< [ˈkrõ.ɲa.i] (lengthening and denasalisation of *õ in OP, diphthong reduction in MN, alongside uvularisation and devoicing of *r).

That gives

ABCD [ˈkøn.na.çis]
EFGH [ˈkʷoɪn.na.his]
IJKL [ˈproɲ.næɦi] ~ [ˈkʷroɲ.næɦi]
MNOP [ˈkrõ.ɲa.i]

This suggests the initial was *kʷ, the rhyme of the first syllable being *oɪn, *na as the next syllable of *his the one after that, with initial stress. The *r was problematic, but it seemed like cluster reduction in ABCD-EFGH (which seem closely related due to the retention of final *s and coda alveolar *n, suggesting IJKL-MNOP as another group, losing final *s and developing palatal *ɲ), thus ˈkʷroɪn.na.his
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 02:21

Wow, excellent work! Not all of your internal guesses, so to speak, are correct, but I would have been completely stunned if you'd guessed 100% of what I was thinking when I came up with the changes. [:D] And in the end, like I said, your final reconstruction was spot on! If I ever get a chance to do this again, I'll have to make it harder. [:P]

In case anyone's curious, here's how I did things:
Spoiler:
Proto-World *[ˈkʷroɪ̯n.na.his]

Proto-West (ABCD-EFGH) *[ˈkʷoɪ̯d.na.his] (initial cluster simplification, [nː] > [ᵈn] > [dn])
Proto-East (IJKL-MNOP) *[ˈkʷroɲ.ɲa.hi] ([Vɪ̯nː] > [Vɪ̯ɲ] > [Vɲː], loss of final consonants)

Proto-ABCD *[ˈkoɪ̯d.na.çis] (loss of labialization before rounded vowels, palatalization of [h])
Proto-EFGH *[ˈkʷoɪ̯d.na.his] (whoops, just realized I forgot to apply any changes between this word and its direct ancestor…)
Proto-IJKL *[ˈproɲ.ɲæ.hi] ([kʷ] > [p], fronting of [a] due to "i-umlaut")
Proto-MNOP *[ˈkrõ.ɲa.i] (loss of labialization before consonants, deletion of [h], [VNC] > [ṼNC] > [ṼC])

Proto-AB *[ˈkøːd.na.ʃis] ([oɪ̯] > [øɪ̯] > [øː], [ç] > [ʃ])
Proto-CD *[ˈkjoð.na.çiː] ([oɪ̯] > [øɪ̯] > [ø] > [jo], [d] lenites word-medially, loss of final consonants with compensatory lengthening)
Proto-EF *[ˈpoɟ.na.ʔis] ([kʷ] > [p], [Vɪ̯d] > [Vdʲ] > [Vɟ], [h] > [ʔ])
Proto-GH *[ˈxʷoɪ̯d.nə.hih] ([kʷ] > [kʷʰ] > [xʷ] in the onset of a stressed syllable, post-tonic vowel reduction, debuccalization of the sibilant)
Proto-IJ *[uˈroɲ.ɟæ.hi] ([#ˈpr] > [#ˈbr] > [#ˈβr] > [#ˈwr] > [#uˈwr] > [#uˈr], [ɲː] > [ɲɟ])
Proto-KL *[ˈpʁoɲ.ɲæ.hɨ] ([r] > [ʁ], word-final vowel reduction/centralization)
Proto-MN *[ˈkʁõ.ɲaɪ̯] ([r] > [ʁ], [ai] > [aɪ̯])
Proto-OP *[ˈkroː.ɲa.ji] ([Ṽ] > [Ṽː] > [Vː], [Vi] > [Vji])

A [ˈkeːn.da.ʒis] (front rounded vowels unround, metathesis of [dn], intervocalic voicing)
B [ˈkyd.da.ʃiʃ] (long mid vowels are raised and shortened, [n] assimilates to [d] in orality, progressive sibilant harmony)
C [ˈcoʊ̯.nə.çiː] ([kj] > [c], [ðC] > [vC] > [wC] > [ʊ̯C] after rounded vowels, post-tonic vowel reduction)
D [ˈkjoz.na.çaɪ̯] ([ð] > [z], long high vowels diphthongize)
E [ˈod͡ʒ.na.ŋis] (loss of initial [p], [ɟ] > [d͡ʒ], rhinoglottophilia)
F [ˈpoɲ.na.is] ([ɟ] assimilates to [n] in nasality, [ʔ] deletion)
G [ˈwøɪ̯d.nəçː] ([xʷ] > [ʍ] > [w], [oɪ̯] > [øɪ̯], [hih] > [çi̥] > [çː])
H [ˈʍeɪ̯t.n̥i] ([xʷ] > [ʍ], [oɪ̯] > [øɪ̯] > [eɪ̯], schwa deletion, [dnh] > [tn̥], loss of word-final [h])
I [ʉˈlɔn.d͡ʑɛɪ̯] (pretonic vowel reduction/centralization, [r] > [l], [o] > [ɔ] in closed syllables, [ɲɟ] > [nd͡ʑ], [æhi] > [ɛhi] > [ɛɪ̯])
J [wuˈrõ.ɟæ.i] ([#u] > [#wu], [VNC] > [ṼNC] > [ṼC], [h] deletion)
K [ˈpʰoɲ.ɲæː] ([pʁ] > [pʁ̥] > [pχ] > [ph] > [pʰ], [æhɨ] > [æhə] > [æh] > [æː])
L [ˈbʁoɪ̯.næɰ] (obstruents are voiced next to voiced consonants, degemination, [Vɲ] > [Vjn] > [Vɪ̯n], [æhɯ] > [æɯ] > [æɰ])
M [ˈqõ.ɲɛː] ([k] assimilates to [ʁ] in POA, initial cluster simplification, [aɪ̯] monophthongizes to [ɛː])
N [ˈk͡xɔ̃.ɲaː] ([kʁ] > [kʁ̥] > [kχ] > [kx] > [k͡x], nasal vowels lower, [aɪ̯] monophthongizes to [aː])
O [ˈgruː.ɟã.ʑi] (obstruents are voiced next to voiced consonants, long mid vowels are raised, [ɲa] > [ɲã] > [ɟã], [ji] > [ʝi] > [ʑi])
P [ˈkʂɑː.ɲaːɪ̯] ([kr] > [kɻ] > [kɻ̥] > [kʂ], [oː] is lowered and unrounded, [aji] > [aːi] > [aːɪ̯])
That was a lot of fun, even if it didn't last as long as I'd hoped. [xD]

Again, great job, sangi39! Congratulations!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 16:12

I'm actually more than happy to pass this back to you again, Shimobaatar, unless you want to wait until you win another round, in which case I'm happy for literally anyone else to have a go. I wanted a go, but I don't think it's fair that someone else can't have a go at coming up with a challenge given that I did quite recently.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 16:46

sangi39 wrote:
Mon 08 Oct 2018, 16:12
I'm actually more than happy to pass this back to you again, Shimobaatar, unless you want to wait until you win another round, in which case I'm happy for literally anyone else to have a go. I wanted a go, but I don't think it's fair that someone else can't have a go at coming up with a challenge given that I did quite recently.
Well, I don't think I'd feel right just going again, since the challenge I put forth was solved. I wouldn't mind the next turn being yours at all, but if you'd rather not go again so soon, I'd also be totally fine with the torch being passed to someone else, so to speak.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Mon 08 Oct 2018, 17:45

I'd be quite happy seeing Creyeditor going next, if they'd be up for it [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 18:30

I am up for it. Just give me a few days more. As shimo said: RL and stuff.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:04

Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 18:30
I am up for it. Just give me a few days more. As shimo said: RL and stuff.
No worries; take your time!
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by sangi39 » Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:47

shimobaatar wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 23:04
Creyeditor wrote:
Tue 09 Oct 2018, 18:30
I am up for it. Just give me a few days more. As shimo said: RL and stuff.
No worries; take your time!
[+1]

We all know well how much real-life and stuff can get in the way of the things we might enjoy [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 03 Nov 2018, 02:22

I'd be willing to give this another shot, unless anyone else wants to?
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by Creyeditor » Sat 03 Nov 2018, 11:12

Woops, totally forgot about this. So sorry. I would have time tomorrow to create a new challenge, if that's still okay.
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Re: Quick Diachronics Challenge

Post by shimobaatar » Sat 03 Nov 2018, 12:16

Creyeditor wrote:
Sat 03 Nov 2018, 11:12
Woops, totally forgot about this. So sorry. I would have time tomorrow to create a new challenge, if that's still okay.
No worries! I wouldn't mind waiting until tomorrow.
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